Suggestion: Make a pure turn-based combat RPG

[Judge Hades]

KotOR sold well because it had both the Star Wars name on it and it had Bioware on the label. Its a good game with flaws, combat being one of them.

[Spook]

Have to agree with Hades one.

 

Without SW and Bioware stamped on the game it probably would have had booth a slower start at sales and fewer sales. That said, I did actualy like KotOR even if it had a lot that needed to be improved.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Then Jade should prove interesting as Biowares first original property.

[Revolver]

You might have a point but the difference in sales are too large to dismiss just like that. Your talking the difference between 100,000's for top selling TB titles (at time of release not 5 years on) to million plus over the course of a few months.

It's only when you go to JRPGs like Pokemon , which is TB and dwarfs most games sales and has been in the charts in GAME since the day it was released.

Or Final Fantasy (ATB/TB) to see anything like comparable numbers.

What titles are you comparing here? Why are TB JRPGs excluded from the sales figures?!? You bring them up but fail to give an explanation. You can't use famous game licenses as an excuse for high TB sales and not for high RT sales.

 

Did KOTOR sell because it was SW ? It probably helped. However there have been SW games that sank without trace too.

The question you should be asking is, did KOTOR sell because it was real time?? Look, if a game has a famous license, gets good reviews and is advertised on TV, its going sell.

Well you could go on , but I doubt you could find comparable sales figures even if you look on consoles where STB games are far more common.

I think the only comparison that could quite possibly work is Silent Storm vs Commmandos. Anyone have the sales figures for that?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What titles are you comparing here? Why are TB JRPGs excluded from the sales figures?!? You bring them up but fail to give an explanation. You can't use famous game licenses as an excuse for high TB sales and not for high RT sales.

Because TB JRPGs have less in common with STB's than STB's have with RT games. Read the post where I outlined the differences between TB,ATB,and STB above. JRPG's dont suffer the issues people have with STB games.

 

Well a valid comparison would be a TB D&D RPG against an RTWP D&D RPG or even an RT D&D RPG as the fact they are all D&D related should offset that factor.

This is somewhat true even if it's D&D in a different setting.

[Spook]

You might have a point but the difference in sales are too large to dismiss just like that. Your talking the difference between 100,000's for top selling TB titles (at time of release not 5 years on) to million plus over the course of a few months.

It's only when you go to JRPGs like Pokemon , which is TB and dwarfs most games sales and has been in the charts in GAME since the day it was released.

Or Final Fantasy (ATB/TB) to see anything like comparable numbers.

What titles are you comparing here? Why are TB JRPGs excluded from the sales figures?!? You bring them up but fail to give an explanation. You can't use famous game licenses as an excuse for high TB sales and not for high RT sales.

 

Did KOTOR sell because it was SW ? It probably helped. However there have been SW games that sank without trace too.

The question you should be asking is, did KOTOR sell because it was real time?? Look, if a game has a famous license, gets good reviews and is advertised on TV, its going sell.

Well you could go on , but I doubt you could find comparable sales figures even if you look on consoles where STB games are far more common.

I think the only comparison that could quite possibly work is Silent Storm vs Commmandos. Anyone have the sales figures for that?

Thing to remember: Selling numbers are only of consequence when they support SP. Otherwise they are anomalies.

[Iolo]

TOEE was in NPD's top ten as number 5 for two straight weeks after it shipped. Overall it was number 10 in that month and the game shipped halfway through that month. The only reason I think the sales dropped was because of reviews and word of mouth indicating how buggy it was and how light the story was. If it had the story of BG1, it would probably still be selling really well as opposed to just decent. Considering the 3-5 Sims games that are always in the top ten, that was pretty respectable for its first month.

[Spook]

Then Jade should prove interesting as Biowares first original property.

Agree on that, but from what I could see on it's site it could have been an interesting game to get.........if it was not console only (I have not looked recently but it was console only before).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Thing to remember: Selling numbers are only of consequence when they support SP. Otherwise they are anomalies.

Not true. They just have to be from comparable games. JRPGs dont have movement. Movement is the aspect that slows STB games to a crawl. Ergo if that puts you off TB games it wont be a factor in a JRPG.

 

Because STB's and RTWP's both have movement they have far more in common than either has with a JRPG.

[Iolo]

Yes console only. It will sell really well because of the BioWare name. They were smart. They worked on MDK2, BG1&2, NWN and KOTOR all for other publishers and using established and well known licenses before developing their own world and game. They made a name for themselves first and developed as a pretty experienced and large and sucessful developer before they decided to take a risk.

[Revolver]

So restricting the ability to move explains why FF sold so well. Brilliant.

 

On the D&D note. How many Greyhawk books do you see when you go to the bookstore? How many Forgotten Realms books do you see?

 

Didn't Final Fantasy Tactics sell well? Wasnt there a movement grid?

[Spook]

Thing to remember: Selling numbers are only of consequence when they support SP. Otherwise they are anomalies.

Not true. They just have to be from comparable games. JRPGs dont have movement. Movement is the aspect that slows STB games to a crawl. Ergo if that puts you off TB games it wont be a factor in a JRPG.

 

Because STB's and RTWP's both have movement they have far more in common than either has with a JRPG.

I see no reason to argue over this since I have had some experience from IP forum that support my view, but you might see things differently.

 

Objectivity is just a myth.

[Iolo]

So restricting the ability to move explains why FF sold so well.  Brilliant.

 

On the D&D note.  How many Greyhawk books do you see when you go to the bookstore?  How many Forgotten Realms books do you see?

 

Didn't Final Fantasy Tactics sell well?  Wasnt there a movement grid?

The Temple of Elemental Evil is one of the best known D&D modules, if not the best known, regardless of whether it is Greyhawk or not. But like I said above it sold really well at first based on that name and because it was D&D.

 

But Greyhawk seems to only be supported by RPGA and some WotC modules as opposed to all the different region books for Forgotten Realms like Silver Marches or Underdark so I won't debate that Forgotten Realms is more popular either.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

TOEE was in NPD's top ten as number 5 for two straight weeks after it shipped. Overall it was number 10 in that month and the game shipped halfway through that month. The only reason I think the sales dropped was because of reviews and word of mouth indicating how buggy it was and how light the story was. If it had the story of BG1, it would probably still be selling really well as opposed to just decent. Considering the 3-5 Sims games that are always in the top ten, that was pretty respectable for its first month.

Thats not suprising POR II was in the number 1 spot. Such is the power of D&D.

 

Another reason that sales may have dropped is that it simply reached its market capacity.

 

No one is claiming that TB games dont have a market (at least I would hope not) but there comes a point where everyone who wants the game has it and those who dont are waiting for the price to drop. When you reach that saturation point your initial sales sweep is done.

 

I have no problem with the probability that there are 100,000 ish people out there totally dedicated to TB games. And those are the numbers that make for strong initial sales. But if that is the whole of the market those sales will soon dwindle.

 

Consider that KOTOR on the Xbox sold I think 750,000 over the first couple of weeks. Or even better. Consider that Pokemon red is still in the bloody top 10 and has been ever since it was released. Who the hell is buying Pokemon Red ? Why dosnt everyone who wants it have it by now ? Or perhaps the reason is that other games are actually selling less than people might consider.

[Revolver]

So restricting the ability to move explains why FF sold so well.  Brilliant.

 

On the D&D note.  How many Greyhawk books do you see when you go to the bookstore?  How many Forgotten Realms books do you see?

 

Didn't Final Fantasy Tactics sell well?  Wasnt there a movement grid?

The Temple of Elemental Evil is one of the best known D&D modules, if not the best known, regardless of whether it is Greyhawk or not. But like I said above it sold really well at first based on that name and because it was D&D.

That really wasn't my point. The license definitely helped its sales. But you can't compare BG sales (FR, or "We've got Drizzt!" license) w/ TOEE sales (Greyhawk).

[Iolo]

TOEE was in NPD's top ten as number 5 for two straight weeks after it shipped.  Overall it was number 10 in that month and the game shipped halfway through that month.  The only reason I think the sales dropped was because of reviews and word of mouth indicating how buggy it was and how light the story was.  If it had the story of BG1, it would probably still be selling really well as opposed to just decent.  Considering the 3-5 Sims games that are always in the top ten, that was pretty respectable for its first month.

Thats not suprising POR II was in the number 1 spot. Such is the power of D&D.

 

Another reason that sales may have dropped is that it simply reached its market capacity.

 

No one is claiming that TB games dont have a market (at least I would hope not) but there comes a point where everyone who wants the game has it and those who dont are waiting for the price to drop. When you reach that saturation point your initial sales sweep is done.

 

I have no problem with the probability that there are 100,000 ish people out there totally dedicated to TB games. And those are the numbers that make for strong initial sales. But if that is the whole of the market those sales will soon dwindle.

 

Consider that KOTOR on the Xbox sold I think 750,000 over the first couple of weeks. Or even better. Consider that Pokemon red is still in the bloody top 10 and has been ever since it was released. Who the hell is buying Pokemon Red ? Why dosnt everyone who wants it have it by now ? Or perhaps the reason is that other games are actually selling less than people might consider.

I think it had more to do with word of mouth and some mediocre reviews about number of bugs. The game also had a demo and the full game as a 6 hour trial. I think the game itself and not the fact that it was turn based led to the drop off of sales.

[Spook]

So restricting the ability to move explains why FF sold so well.  Brilliant.

 

On the D&D note.  How many Greyhawk books do you see when you go to the bookstore?  How many Forgotten Realms books do you see?

 

Didn't Final Fantasy Tactics sell well?  Wasnt there a movement grid?

The Temple of Elemental Evil is one of the best known D&D modules, if not the best known, regardless of whether it is Greyhawk or not. But like I said above it sold really well at first based on that name and because it was D&D.

It is well known to be a hack and slash modul of little worth. Half of all modules made are better. It is only concidered classic since it was a very early module when very few was produced, and the quality of those produced was questionable at best.

 

A harsh realty, but I had to live through it at the time.

[Revolver]

SP- you're still attributing positive TB sales to other factors and negative TB sales to TB killing an otherwise good game. And the opposite for realtime. None of this screams, "Obsidian bombs b/c it dared to release a TB RPG"

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

So restricting the ability to move explains why FF sold so well. Brilliant.

 

On the D&D note. How many Greyhawk books do you see when you go to the bookstore? How many Forgotten Realms books do you see?

 

Didn't Final Fantasy Tactics sell well? Wasnt there a movement grid?

Not boring the player to tears waiting for things to move sure cant have hurt.JRPG combat is fast , misses are rare (so you dont get the D&D problem where you spend 10 rounds trying to roll a high enough number to hit) and there are a plethora of skills to fool around with to liven up combat.

 

Dont know havnt looked at D&D books since my teens.

 

Tactics , or Tactics Advance ?

 

Tactics Advance had a good initial sales sweep (much like TOEE) but then disapeared. Pokemon on the other hand. Which has no movement aspect. Well thats still there in the top 10.

 

Thats probably a trend you will find a lot in STB games sales if you looked.

[Revolver]

Now you're attributing Pokemon sales to lack of movement. I prefer to believe that it's because it's based on a huge card gaming phenomenon among little kids.

 

Your sales figures do nothing to show that a TB RPG with movement can't sell these days. How many people do you think said for instance, I looked at Fallout, tried out the demo, but I didn't buy it because the combat sucked.

 

Edit: Regarding FF Tactics- I only brought it up b/c I heard it sold well. I tried it once- the combat was horribly slow and boring, much more boring than the combat in a turn-based CRPG.

[Iolo]

I would never buy Pokemon. On the other hand, kids might as might parents for their kids. It has a large market. I don't think that would be a good example unless I am understanding who buys Pokemon games but it seems to be a franchise marketed to kids.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

SP- you're still attributing positive TB sales to other factors and negative TB sales to TB killing an otherwise good game. And the opposite for realtime. None of this screams, "Obsidian bombs b/c it dared to release a TB RPG"

Outside of it's particular market yes I am but I also attribute those same factors to RT games so it's entirely fair. I dont think NWN or BG would have sold as well as they did without that magic D&D logo on the box. I am fully aware that there are people who buy TB games on principle. But likewise there are people who ignore them on principle too.

 

Most people I've had contact with on various message boards (not like its a huge number) say that Silent Storm is amazing. Likewise they say JA2 is amazing.

 

However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time. Not with the overheads in Calif. Of course its Feargus you have to convince not me.

 

The thing with STB games is you have so much time to analyse while your waiting for something to happen it makes spotting bugs incredbly easy.

 

Front Mission 4 might just have the production value to attract some large sustainable numbers (outside of Japan).Though it's techically more small unit strategy than RPG.

[Revolver]

Outside of it's particular market yes I am but I also attribute those same factors to RT games so it's entirely fair. I dont think NWN or BG would have sold as well as they did without that magic D&D logo on the box. I am fully aware that there are people who buy TB games on principle. But likewise there are people who ignore them on principle too.

You can't compare the FR license w/ the Greyhawk license, just as you can't compare a game w/ bad reviews (nothing to do w/ combat) with ones with good reviews. I get to the "bugs" part later.

Most people I've had contact with on various message boards (not like its a huge number) say that Silent Storm is amazing. Likewise they say JA2 is amazing.

 

However neither sales record of those games I would consider worth Obsidians time. Not with the overheads in Calif. Of course its Feargus you have to convince not me.

Give me an example of a squad based combat computer game that meets your sales expectations. Commandos? Fallout Tactics? Nope. I'm guessing here, but the king of that genre is probably X-com. (BEFORE it went real-time).

The thing with STB games is you have so much time to analyse while your waiting for something to happen it makes spotting bugs incredbly easy.

That's no reason not to make a game in a certain style!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Now you're attributing Pokemon sales to lack of movement. I prefer to believe that it's because it's based on a huge card gaming phenomenon among little kids.

 

Your sales figures do nothing to show that a TB RPG with movement can't sell these days. How many people do you think said for instance, I looked at Fallout, tried out the demo, but I didn't buy it because the combat sucked.

 

Edit: Regarding FF Tactics- I only brought it up b/c I heard it sold well. I tried it once- the combat was horribly slow and boring, much more boring than the combat in a turn-based CRPG.

I wouldnt go as far as attributing the sales to lack of movement. However lack of movement is a common factor to all those big selling JRPGs and Final Fantasy games. So perhaps there is more to how the dynamic changes when you remove movement than you are perhaps willing to accept ?

 

Probably at least a few. Though that was ancient history as far as gaming goes. People do ignore TB games just because they are TB. Howling1 is one such person.

 

So it shouldnt be too much of stretch for you to appreciate that other people can find TB RPG's equally boring ?

[Revolver]

I wouldnt go as far as attributing the sales to lack of movement. However lack of movement is a common factor to all those big selling JRPGs and Final Fantasy games. So perhaps there is more to how the dynamic changes when you remove movement than you are perhaps willing to accept ?

What you're saying is that if you could move your characters around tactically, the sales figures would be drastically lower- I really find that extremely hard to believe.

 

So it shouldnt be too much of stretch for you to appreciate that other people can find TB RPG's equally boring ?

That was an example of an extremely poorly implemented TB game- as in not representative of the style- and it still sold decently.