Suggestion: Make a pure turn-based combat RPG

[Saint_Proverbius]

Let's start with the assumption that we're talking about a CRPG. Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Jagged Alliance, Silent Storm and the like all need not apply.

Might as well toss out IWD series, ToEE, Wizardry series, NWN, and so on then if you're going to toss out those.

[FO24EvA]

I personally, don't worry much with the combat style of the game. To me a game is made great by the story and originality factor, PST comes to mind. Although Realtime with pause is not my FAVORITE combat style, a well thought out and captivating game is all I need to waste six more weeks of my pathetic, pasty, overweight existence.

[LlamaGod]

f*** SALES AND JUST MAKE A GOOD GAME

[Greatjon]

Let's start with the assumption that we're talking about a CRPG.  Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Jagged Alliance, Silent Storm and the like all need not apply.

Might as well toss out IWD series, ToEE, Wizardry series, NWN, and so on then if you're going to toss out those.

I haven't played IWD or Wizardry. I guess you could make an argument for ToEE being a light on story and characters, not to the extent of the other games I listed though, I think. While NWN OC wasn't that great, the expansions were better, and there are many modules out there. I don't think it belongs with the others.

 

If it'll help you though, by all means, don't throw any of them out.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Here is the grand summary for ShadowPaladin's arguments (some quotes, some paraphrases)-

 

In the sales figures matter (only when they support my case) category:

 

1a) TOEE is being carried by the D&D name. "That TOEE owes most of its sales to the D&D logo really cant be disputed. "

1b) Saying that popular licenses like Forgotten Realms and Starwars were responsible for the high sales of NWN and SW is just making excuses

 

2a) KOTOR sales were PROBABLY helped by the Star Wars license- but a lot of Star Wars games have failed

2b) A lot of RT games have failed but they aren't IE games so they don't count.

 

3a) "Well you could go on (about the uselessness of sales figure comparisons) I doubt you could find comparable sales figures (between real time and turn based) even if you look on consoles where STB games are far more common. "

3b) "I dont happen to have any figures for TOEE do you ? What is the highest selling STB CRPG ?"

 

4a) "Using FF (which has wracked up in the region of 60 million sales) to support an arguement for an STB game selling well, is a fallacy. " JRPGs are turn-based and sold well, but you cant move your characters in combat so they don't count.

4b) Diablo clones bombed, but they aren't IE games that use RTWP, so they don't count

4c) IE RTWP clones like Prince of Qin and Gorasul that failed don't matter because I don't know anything about them

4d) Lionheart doesn't apply, because it moved too fast

4e) Quote: "Again your making excuses for the poor sales."

 

In the watch me contradict myself category:

 

1a) I'm going to stick to RPGs since the original author was refering to TB RPG's not TB games in general.

1b)If you look at something like MechCommander which also runs in real time. You have a much more measured combat pace and the targetting interface is via the numpad which means you dont need multiple icon clicks to find it.

1c) JA2 and SS's sales figures are hardly worth Obsidian's time

 

In the WTF are you talking about category:

 

1) "The thing with STB games is you have so much time to analyse while your waiting for something to happen it makes spotting bugs incredbly easy. "

2) FF7's sales can be only be used to justify why its not risky for Obsidian to make a JRPG

Fun taking things out of context isnt it

 

But you still have completely failed to prove the case put forward by your thread title which.

 

That making a TB game would not casuse obsidian harm.

 

The only high sales games you can use in support have less to do with the type of game you are championing than an RTWP game.

 

So I will ask you again. Where is your evidence that a such a game would not cause Obsidian harm ? Because you have yet to present a shred of it. Only excuses as to why similiar games have failed to sell.

 

1a. True

1b . False. I said that the D&D logo also boosted NWN's and BG sales over what they would have been if they were not D&D games. Real time or TB the D&D name is gold dust.

 

2a. Thats true. The SW name is valuable. But many SW games have sunk without a trace. Dont see a problem with that.

2b Correct they dont. Its like saying a lot of platform games have failed when your looking at making a driving a game.

How many IE type games have failed that didnt come from Europe ? My count is 1 (IWD II) and that was hardly cutting edge.

 

3a Well you havnt found any have you ?

3b No , still no sales figures for the highest selling TTB either.

 

4a Paraphrasing dosnt mean make stuff up you know :D Are you denying that JRPG's combat is of a very different design to something like FO ?

4b Again if your not making a Diablo game then Diablo clones dont apply.

4c If I am not even aware of them. And actually it was just Prince of Qin I wasnt aware of. And the game wasnt released in Europe then is it suprising the sales are low ?

4d Again your taking things out of context. That simply a description of LH's combat tagged onto the bottom of a post in response to someone who had not played the game. Nothing whatsoever to do with you.

 

1a Well if you want to tell me what Civ has to do with RPG's feel free.

1b Again that was in response to the LH combat on how you can accomplish targetting in real time.

1c You thing that sales figures of 24,000 or 75,000 are worth Obsidians time ?Because that might shed some light on why you think them making a TTB game wouldnt cause them "harm".

 

1. Thats pretty self explanatory isnt it ? If you have lots of free time to stare at the screen your much more likely to notice anomolies than if your engaged in action. You were the one who brought up the bugs being the reason for TOEE not selling.

 

2. Yep that ones self explanatory too as it would be a game of a similiar type.

 

Since you did me the favour of summing up my posts. Allow me to return the favour.

 

Revolvers Arguement.

 

1.I want Obsidian to make a TTB game. I am going to promise them that it wont fail

 

2.I Dont have a shread of proof to back any of that up.

 

3.I can give you lots of reasons why things have failed. But I cant show you a single success without having to bring in games that are entirely unrelated.

 

Does that cover it ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, if you don't like to think of it as hybrids, then think of it as an evolution of a system you prefer.  Attacks of opportunity is such an example.  It contradicts pure TB since you're moving out of turn/interrupting the sequence.  However, it is now considered an integeral part of TB and most people wouldn't have it any other way.

Indeed.

 

Pause is something added to Real Time to allow some of the control that TB games allow you over multiple party members. Freedom Force went one further and added a variable slow motion as well as pause.

 

Overwatch and Attacks of Opportunity are something added to TB games to make them more like real time.

 

This is really where we should be focusing our efforts rather than drawing lines in the sand and refusing to cross over them.

It's all well and good to say TTB games are fine if you dont like them , then your some sort of imbecile. But that wont get them made.

Likewise its easy to say that people who like them are dinosaurs and should move with the times.

 

But the truth is they can both be improved. But it's also true that many of the dislikes may well be purely personal. But thats true of any game and any genre.

[Revolver]

1) The promise it won't hurt comment was made tongue in cheek- even a fool would realize that. All I have to do is show that making a TB RPG is by no means more of a financial risk than making a RT RPG.

2) You want an example? I gave you one- the Fallout series, which overcame the twin hurdles of being from an original world and having a mature rating- was it profitable? yes, enough to warrant a sequel AND reinforce the brand name. You want an example of RT RPGs being financially risky? I gave you a list- reference my earlier post.

3) Like I said, I gave you an example- but I'm not sure that its compatible with your dreamworld in which game developers have been writhing in pain everytime a game sells less than KOTOR or NWN.

 

Why don't you respond to my earlier post too?

[LlamaGod]

Overwatch and Attacks of Opportunity are something added to TB games to make them more like real time.

Care to explain that one, oh so wise one?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1) The promise it won't hurt comment was made tongue in cheek- even a fool would realize that. All I have to do is show that making a TB RPG is by no means more of a financial risk than making a RT RPG.

2) You want an example? I gave you one- the Fallout series, which overcame the twin hurdles of being from an original world and having a mature rating- was it profitable? yes, enough to warrant a sequel. You want an example of RT RPGs being financially risky? I gave you a list- reference below.

3) Like I said, I gave you an example- but I'm not sure that its compatible with your dreamworld in which game developers have been writhing in pain everytime a game sells less than KOTOR or NWN.

 

Why don't you respond to my earlier post too?

1) Ah so it's not a promise at all then. Oki doki.

 

Actually you would have to show that it makes sense to make one for a company like Obsidian.

 

If I offered you $100,000 and $1 million which would you choose ?

 

2) Yes but are you refering to FO's initial sales ? Or the sales accumulated over 5 years of budget and jewel pack releases ? Not to mention being pre the RTWP revolution. It's a little like saying that horse drawn carriages sold realy well before the motor car became popular.

 

Do you have a more recent example ?

 

Yes,there is no guarentee that an RT game wont fail. However if you discount things made by fringe developers. Can we both agree that Obsidian isnt a fringe developer ? Then only IWDII has "failed" from the RTWP game style. More importantly recent games like KOTOR and NWN , or more recently the NWN expansions are selling like gangbusters.

 

Which is a pretty good track record.

 

3) An example I would be willing to except would be one that is no more than 2 years old and one that is of a similiar game style to the sort of game you are lobbying for.

Like it or not making games is a business. Personally I dont want Obsidian to be the next Interplay or Looking Glass. I'd much rather see them get a slice of the Bioware pie because I think they deserve it.Why is it so hard to believe that if you spend 2 1/2 years making something you might want to actually make some money off it ? Do you set out in business not to be succesful ?

[Iolo]

Not getting into details of this conversation. But SP1.0, you might want to consider just that maybe some people like TB combat. You have your own opinion but by stating your opinions to the contrary they will not change. And why should you want them to? If you feel strongly about an opinion and if anyone does, we all realize that will not change. But don't give a hard time to people who feel otherwise than yourself. I want a TB game too and I think Obsidian can deliver on that. Your opinions are irrelevant.

[Revolver]

Yes,there is no guarentee that an RT game wont fail.

So you should realize it's absurd to ask things like:

If I offered you $100,000 and $1 million which would you choose ?

Because you're implying that real-time with pause is a million dollar slam dunk

Do you have a more recent example ?

Part of the reason behind this thread is that few developers have tried a real TB RPGs since Fallout. That's why I was calling for Obsidian to step forward. I was criticizing the industry's use of the same faulty logic that you're using.

However if you discount things made by fringe developers. Can we both agree that Obsidian isnt a fringe developer ? Then only IWDII has "failed" from the RTWP game style. More importantly recent games like KOTOR and NWN , or more recently the NWN expansions are selling like gangbusters.

Do you know how ridiculous your argument is? Exclude every TB RPG that doesn't fit your exact criteria, and include only Bioware related games with big licenses. Everything thats not Bioware related becomes a "fringe developer."

 

Of course making games is a business- I never said anything contrary to that. I did say in the first post, that I conceded that their first game is probably KOTOR 2 and has to be real time, and is probably going to rake in huge bucks based on name alone. But if you ran the company, the only games you'd think would be worth making is KOTOR 3 4 5 6. Everything else is too much of a risk huh? Why do we call this company Obsidian anymore, it should be called KOTOR X instead.

 

Let me give you the only only example that matters. We've beaten this to death, but you're not getting it: the last time these very same developers tried to copy a "money making formula" without the support of a large license, it was Lionheart.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Fun taking things out of context isnt it

The best part is, that even in the context of your posts, they still sound just as idiotic.

 

But you still have completely failed to prove the case put forward by your thread title which.

 

That making a TB game would not casuse obsidian harm.

Meanwhile, you've failed to prove that it would. On the other hand, it's been shown by countless examples that real time with pause and real time CRPGs do fail. NWN and KotOR are exceptions, hardly the rule. After all, the vast majority of CRPGs released now are real time or real time with pause, and only a few make money.

 

The only high sales games you can use in support have less to do with the type of game you are championing than an RTWP game.

 

Uhhh.. The same thing can be said about you. Baldur's Gate was D&D. NWN was D&D. KotOR was Star Wars. All of them came from the same brand name, too.

 

Even BIS in it's hay day couldn't match the sales of BG with their IE games, despite having the same combat system and same license. Go figure.

 

1b . False. I said that the D&D logo also boosted NWN's and BG sales over what they would have been if they were not D&D games. Real time or TB the D&D name is gold dust.

Descent to Undermountain anyone? D&D Heroes? Icewind Dale 2?

 

You can also tell that to Atari, because at this time, they've halted production on making D&D CRPGs including a Ravenloft game that was in the works.

 

2a. Thats true. The SW name is valuable. But many SW games have sunk without a trace. Dont see a problem with that.

 

I don't think any of them actually failed to make a profit.

 

2b Correct they dont. Its like saying a lot of platform games have failed when your looking at making a driving a game.

How many IE type games have failed that didnt come from Europe ? My count is 1 (IWD II) and that was hardly cutting edge.

What does coming from Europe have to do with anything? I doubt the vast majority of gamers have any idea where developers are located. Oh, and Prince of Qin wasn't from Europe, it was from China's Object Software.

 

And while I'm at it, the reason you can't name many is because they flopped.

 

4b Again if your not making a Diablo game then Diablo clones dont apply.

 

You're the one that brought Diablo up in the first place.

 

1c You thing that sales figures of 24,000 or 75,000 are worth Obsidians time ?Because that might shed some light on why you think them making a TTB game wouldnt cause them "harm".

As Iolo said, that 24,000 number came from Carsten Strehe on DAC talking about Silent Storm's sales in Germany alone. That number is also very questionable considering he also said that the developers of Silent Storm might be forced to close down since the game is selling poorly. In reality, that game was developed by Nival Interactive, a HUGE software studio in Russia that owns a big, four story building and an annex. They have such a big property most likely because they make LOTS OF MONEY.

 

If I offered you $100,000 and $1 million which would you choose ?

 

Given the range of sales of the real time with pause thing range from millions of sales(which really only happens if your company's name is BIOWARE) all the way down to a couple of copies versus turn based games generally selling 100k-300k+.. I think I'd take the sure bet thing with the turn based title.

 

You said it yourself, turn based CRPGs are a niche. Market may be smaller than those that buy the BioWare games(and typically only buy the BioWare games), but that market does tend to turn out to buy games in enough numbers to make a nice little profit. Meanwhile, your Diablo clones and IE clones tend to falter and flop.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Because you're implying that real-time with pause is a million dollar slam dunk

 

Part of the reason behind this thread is that few developers have tried a real TB RPGs since Fallout. That's why I was calling for Obsidian to step forward. I was criticizing the industry's use of the same faulty logic that you're using.

 

Do you know how ridiculous your argument is? Exclude every TB RPG that doesn't fit your exact criteria, and include only Bioware related games with big licenses. Everything thats not Bioware related becomes a "fringe developer."

 

Of course making games is a business- I never said anything contrary to that. I did say in the first post, that I conceded that their first game is probably KOTOR 2 and has to be real time, and is probably going to rake in huge bucks based on name alone. But if you ran the company, the only games you'd think would be worth making is KOTOR 3 4 5 6. Everything else is too much of a risk huh? Why do we call this company Obsidian anymore, it should be called KOTOR X instead.

 

Let me give you the only only example that matters. We've beaten this to death, but you're not getting it: the last time these very same developers tried to copy a "money making formula" without the support of a large license, it was Lionheart.

Maybe but you still didnt answer the question.

 

The problem is its not faulty logic. The TB games that have been made have not caused an impact. Now on the other hand you cant say Bioware didnt take a risk because prior to BG RTWP was fairly unknown.

There is nothing new about TTB games its not a step forward into something new its a step back into something old.

It's very easy for you to sit there and say why are you not making this. Because your not the one putting your own money and livelyhood on the line. Which is why I think you need to provide evidence that it would in fact be a good thing to do for THEM not just for you YOU.

 

Thats the way it is. Are the creators of Prince of Qin and Gorusal fringe developers?

It's not my fault that there are no TTB games that you can call upon for support. Thats just the way it is.

 

My business stance would be to monitor the offerings from Europe and see where it goes from there. If the TTB market from Europe grows into worthwhile numbers then

No I dont like being tied to other peoples property. However I have no qualms about using to establish a reputation.

 

But if it came down to that better KOTOR X than Bankrupt X.

 

But just because you follow a certain style. Like Squares ATB system dosnt mean that the games need to be carbon copies or sequels. Every FF game is different even though all but 1 use ATB. likewise is nothing that ties the RTWP system to any setting.

 

Lionheart was a subcontract job. So "these developers" is wrong.

 

I agree this has been beaten to death. And you dont seem to get that you have nothing to base a TTB game on but personal desire. Which is not a reason for a business to do anything.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Not getting into details of this conversation. But SP1.0, you might want to consider just that maybe some people like TB combat. You have your own opinion but by stating your opinions to the contrary they will not change. And why should you want them to? If you feel strongly about an opinion and if anyone does, we all realize that will not change. But don't give a hard time to people who feel otherwise than yourself. I want a TB game too and I think Obsidian can deliver on that. Your opinions are irrelevant.

I'm perfectly fine with that. I like them too, well some of them.

 

It's not about like or dislike here its about whether it makes sense for Obsidian to actually make one. I see no evidence at all that it would be the case.

 

No one has been able to come up with a single postive and that strikes me as very strange.

[Revolver]

Maybe but you still didnt answer the question.

You want me to answer the question? Ok. I'd take the million dollars over the $100,000. Congrats, you've managed to convince yourself that the design decision to have the characters fight without turns is +900,000 dollars in the bank. Or +900% profit. Another shining example of Shadow Paladin rhetoric.

Lionheart was a subcontract job. So "these developers" is wrong.

If thats the only thing you find wrong, than the point still stands.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You want me to answer the question? Ok. I'd take the million dollars over the $100,000. Congrats, you've managed to convince yourself that the design decision to have the characters fight without turns is +900,000 dollars in the bank. Or +900% profit. Another shining example of Shadow Paladin rhetoric.

Ok. So why is it such a stretch to believe that people might follow a trend which is far more likely to make those sorts of figures. Than one which will just keep them going ?

 

Your basically asking someone to do someting you yourself wouldnt do.

 

Obsidian have the quality to play with the big boys. Why shouldnt they do it ?

[Tigranes]

My god, another shadowpaladin vs. random people showdown. It's like watching the attack on Zion or something.

[Revolver]

No one has been able to come up with a single postive and that strikes me as very strange.

I said Fallout. You said that it didn't count. Why? Because it was 5 years old.

 

Was TOEE unprofitable? I doubt it.

 

You think turn based is outdated because there's no example of a Turn-Based chart topper in recent history. There have been only 2 turn-based RPGs in recent history because people like you think turn based is outdated. And you're trying to use sales figures to make your point? Ever take statistics?

 

And you're still dodging my Lionheart example.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Was TOEE unprofitable?

[Revolver]

You know why I asked whether you know anything about statistics? Because in arguing for "evidence" you have violated every rule of statistical justification. Let me show you:

 

Out of the multitude of RT RPGs that have been released the past 2 years, many have failed and some succeeded. Out of that groups, you picked 3 to make your point: NWN, KOTOR, and BG. But ah, they share some very powerful external factors, like having powerful licenses like the Forgotten Realms, and Starwars, as well as ALL being released by the same company. But of course you throw out those factors. So first we have extreme population bias and second, extreme factor multicollinearity- go look them up if you don't know what they mean.

 

Another example of tampering data and extreme population bias are your continued attempts to throw away things that belong in the RT vs TB financial viability argument like "its a fringe company", "its from Europe", and the awe inspiring "you can't pause"- however of course the factors like brand name (very important when you're talking about sales!) are acceptable.

 

Now we come to the dataset about TB game. Here we have a population set of 4- oh wait, 2 because of your great 3 year time frame. All that can be proven out of a dataset of 2 is that neither of the 2 was as big a hit as NWN. That's something we all knew already, so you've proven NOTHING.

 

Of course the FACT that you can never empirically prove something (only DISPROVE) means that your cries for empirical proof are completely ridiculous.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Of course the FACT that you can never empirically prove something (only DISPROVE) means that your cries for empirical proof are completely ridiculous.

Of course the fact that I can draw on games with strong sales might be an indication of the state of the market. However you cant draw on a single one can you ? Unless its either old and or completely unrelated to the type of game you are championing.

 

So your basically saying take a gamble and cross your fingers because thats really the best you can do.

 

If thats the case then thats fine. But please dont try to fob us off with some TB games are a really great business move.

 

I asked for one TTB RPG that was successful you couldnt provide one. That really should tell you a lot dont you think ?

[Revolver]

But please dont try to fob us off with some TB games are a really great business move.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I asked for one TTB RPG that was successful you couldnt provide one. That really should tell you a lot dont you think ?

Yeah, it tells me 1) you're completely ignoring my argument above and 2) you need to read this: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/b...n-of-proof.html

 

edit: this is a more applicable one:

http://esgs.free.fr/uk/log02.htm

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You're putting words in my mouth.

 

you're completely ignoring my argument

No I'm not your the one who came up with the title not me.

 

You dont really have an arguement thats why.

 

You want a TB game - yep thats fine.

You want Obsidian to make one - yep fine to

You think it wont hurt then finanically - You have nothing at all to support that.

 

The majority of RTWP games have succeeded

Not one TTB game in the same time period has succeeded.

 

None of the TTB games from other developers have sold in a way that would indicate TTB are either a large or a growth market.

 

So I suppose the ultimate question is "Why would you make a TTB game" ?

 

Perhaps you can answer that one ?

[LlamaGod]

Sales figures dont judge quality.

[Synaesthesia]

Sales figures dont judge quality.

Dear god, please don't go down that path.