Suggestion: Make a pure turn-based combat RPG

[Revolver]

After all these real-time and horrible hybrid RT TB RPGs, I think it's time we had a RP focused game that used a pure turn based combat system.

 

Before someone starts spouting sales arguments, I'd just like to point out that the Fallouts were M rated games with an original world, while BG, KOTOR, NWN, all used extremely popular licenses (Forgotten Realms and Starwars).

 

I realize that you may be working on KOTOR 2 w/ Bioware, and as a sequel, it would have to be real-time. That's fine, but I'm hoping that your first original effort will be the one that brings back the pure turn based CRPG.

[Sammael]

I'd prefer KotOR2 to be turn-based, and, given the popularity of JRPGs (which are, to my understanding, all turn-based), this may yet happen.

[deganawida]

Not all JRPGs are TB. For a while there, nearly every JRPG was real-time (and darned annoying). The Final Fantasy games used "Active Time Battle" for several of their games, and other games mimicked this. However, JRPGs seem to be going more towards TB gameplay than RT lately, and hopefully this trend will crossover to CRPGs.

[Volourn]

RT with pause isn't horried. that said, a fun tb game would be welcomed sicne there have been very few if none of those since the FO series

[Revolver]

RT with pause isn't horried. that said, a fun tb game would be welcomed sicne there have been very few if none of those since the FO series

I wasn't referring to real-time w/ pause when I said hybrid. I actually like a couple of those kind of RPGs. But RT w/ pause is just the same as RT for me...

 

I probably should have said that efforts to give concessions to TB fans by making a game where you could switch between real-time and turn based were horrible- for the TB fans- as I was thinking about FO:Tactics and X-Com Apocalypse. Not really RPGs, I know, but you get the idea.

 

And I don't even have to bring up Lionheart.

[Megatron]

Freedom Forces RT system was alright, other than that I think rt games suck a bit. TB all the way ababy.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I probably should have said that efforts to give concessions to TB fans by making a game where you could switch between real-time and turn based were horrible- for the TB fans- as I was thinking about FO:Tactics and X-Com Apocalypse. Not really RPGs, I know, but you get the idea.

They are also horrid for any RT fan that actually knows what RT is about. RTWP removes the tactical layer of TB, and removed the constant player input which makes RT games interactive and fun.

[Volourn]

Revolver: Ahh.. Youa re thinking along the lines of, say, Arcanum which ;supported" boith. Ahh.. I don't mind too much; but that's me.

 

Zant: Actually, RT w/pause gives ample time for tatical chocies if you actually use the pause. If you try to play it in full Rt then you are misisng the point of having RT w/pause.

[Revolver]

Here's how I see the reasoning of many of today's RPG designers (intentional or not)

 

1) Must make it real-time or it will not sell.

2) However real-time makes it really hard to control multiple characters, so we have to give the party members standalone AI or add a pause feature, or both.

3) Reflexes can't be a factor because this will make RPG fans angry and think it's a Diablo clone. Therefore, we have to also give the player an AI option to attack when attacked, and have the character finish killing the enemy on its own once a target has been selected.

4) Combat is now over too quickly so we have to fill the game with time-killing minor combats and encounters so that the player feels like he's actually doing something.

5) But we have to make this frequent combat somewhat tactically interesting, so we'll sacrifice some of the time spent on RP and story elements to focus on encounters.

 

This results in A- combat where you have a limited role- click, wait, click wait, loot. B- combat that's frequently not satisfying nor meaningful. And finally C- A game that's limited in freedom and depth.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

@Volourn:

 

Yes and no. Becuse its going in real time - with everyone moving at the same time and evrything going off at once - removes the component, as more often than not, what you tactically planed won't have the desired effect. It only reaches the same type and amount of tactics of a TB system if both the TB system you're using as comparison and the RTWP system you're thinking of are equally simple in amount of options. Its undeniable that the TB aspect of sequential turns allows for more tactical value, and trying to make it work by pausing isn't the same. Yes, you have the same amount of time to plan your actions wheter the pause is automatic or executed by you; the problem is that you lack a comparative scale of effectiveness of your actions, because of the absence of turns (it still is realtime remember? It can never be as tactical as pure TB). RTWP might be good for some people, but it isn't better, and doesn't really bring any advantages over pure TB or pure RT. If you state that pause in an RT system helps plan out actions, then you also have to remember that TB does the exact same, without your input for pause. And in that case, there is no reason to use a hybrid system when pure TB does the job better.

[Nightblade]

TB vs. RT is like american football vs. soccer. I never really got used to watching american football. All they do is stand still, run for a few seconds, then stand still. Makes me impatient. I need some flow.

[mkreku]

The games that are the most fun for me to play and that I still consider to be RPG's are Deus Ex, Gothic/Gothic 2 and System Shock 2. They mix the character development system of any good RPG with the real time action of a FPS. I develop my character to my liking, using my brain, but I play out all his possibilities directly on the screen, through his eyes, using my fingers, reflexes and motorics.

 

Of course, I really enjoyed Fallout too so I guess turn based combat isn't so bad either..

[pulp]

I second the motion (heh heh).

 

Make a good TB CRPG. I've been playing Silent Storm and was just thinking how great it would be for a TB system like the latter married with very very strong RPG elements.

[Greatjon]

I think real-time with pause, with all the actions possible in a turn-based system available, is the best option. Although it can be fun, I've always found pure TB to be too artificial. The whole I shoot at enemy, then enemy shoots at me thing seems like I'm playing a glorified chess game, rather than something that's supposed to be simulating combat. Also, at times the TB aspect gets in the way when you're faced with an encounter that could easily completed quickly in RT, but in TB you're force to endure the actions of every little thing on the screen. There are some solutions to these problems of course, but I like the elegance of RT with pause, allowing me to dictate the pace of combat, rather than having it dictated to me by the game.

[pulp]

I think real-time with pause, with all the actions possible in a turn-based system available, is the best option. Although it can be fun, I've always found pure TB to be too artificial. The whole I shoot at enemy, then enemy shoots at me thing seems like I'm playing a glorified chess game, rather than something that's supposed to be simulating combat. Also, at times the TB aspect gets in the way when you're faced with an encounter that could easily completed quickly in RT, but in TB you're force to endure the actions of every little thing on the screen. There are some solutions to these problems of course, but I like the elegance of RT with pause, allowing me to dictate the pace of combat, rather than having it dictated to me by the game.

I suppose it depends on what you prefer. I don't like RT with pause because I'd like to micro-manage the technical side of combat. RT with pause - a feature I deplored in BG et al - made everything far too messy.

[Volourn]

Huh? you could micro manage all you want in the IE games...

[pulp]

Huh? you could micro manage all you want in the IE games...

Not at the same level as with pure TB games. You cannot choose the manner in which you attack, only the weapon you have chosen to use e.g. there's a marked difference between a thrust and a swing. You can't do aimed-shots with as great a variety and with as much flexibility as you can with TB.

 

And, even if these are incorporated within a RT with pause game, you will end up pausing all the time - which in effect, removes whatever fluidity you might have striven for with combat systems of that sort.

 

I don't see a good way to make a hybrid RT/TB game, unless you have a better suggestion.

[Volourn]

HuH? NWN has called shots, trip (knockdown), disarm, and a host of other of combat options. And, I very rarely pause the game.

[pulp]

HuH? NWN has called shots, trip (knockdown), disarm, and a host of other of combat options. And, I very rarely pause the game.

NWN's called shots are not to particular parts of the body, if I recall correctly.

 

trip(knockdown) is a matter of a single click. So is disarm. But you have to queue these options first whereas there is a chance of firing off these special attacks too late.

 

With TB you can choose precisely how you'd wish to attack.

[Volourn]

Woah, woah, woah. Someone should brush up on their NWN lore.

 

 

Called shots: There are two. One to the arms, and one to the legs. Those are specifci body parts last i checked hence why it's called call shots.

 

Knockdown & Disarm: Not really single lcicksunless you ahev them in the quick bar otherwise you have to use the radial menu just like another more recent game. You don't have to queue your attacks. I surely don't. You have plenty of time to use them within a round so no worries.

 

You can choose precisely how you want to attack in NWN as well . Only exception is AOO which I wish was player chocie activated but oh well. That could be fixed by BIo if they so wish though.

 

I'm sorry to say; but outside of TOEE; there are very few role-playing games that bring more tatics to the combat table and TOE's advantage isn't that it's tb but becuase you cna control multiple characters (though NWN has henchmen which you can tell what to do within reason); and it has more combat options overall.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I think real-time with pause, with all the actions possible in a turn-based system available, is the best option. Although it can be fun, I've always found pure TB to be too artificial. The whole I shoot at enemy, then enemy shoots at me thing seems like I'm playing a glorified chess game, rather than something that's

[Megatron]

TB ROX

 

NWNW SUX

 

I don't see how you'd like rt/w pause better than tb. Consider all the finer things in life. Then imagine them done in real-time. Total suckage. Real-time with pause is just a poor mans bullet-time.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Real-time with pause is just a poor mans bullet-time.

Sometimes it isn't even as good as it. Remember BG1, where arrows followed you around everywhere. Pausing to dodge them wouldn't work.

[Volourn]

Um, in real life all things are done in real time be they fine or not. You don't need imagination for that.

[pulp]

Woah, woah, woah. Someone should brush up on their NWN lore.

 

 

Called shots: There are two. One to the arms, and one to the legs. Those are specifci body parts last i checked hence why it's called call shots.

 

Knockdown & Disarm: Not really single lcicksunless you ahev them in the quick bar otherwise you have to use the radial menu just like another more recent game. You don't have to queue your attacks. I surely don't. You have plenty of time to use them within a round so no worries.

 

You can choose precisely how you want to attack in NWN as well . Only exception is AOO which I wish was player chocie activated but oh well. That could be fixed by BIo if they so wish though.

 

I'm sorry to say; but outside of TOEE; there are very few role-playing games that bring more tatics to the combat table and TOE's advantage isn't that it's tb but becuase you cna control multiple characters (though NWN has henchmen which you can tell what to do within reason); and it has more combat options overall.

My bad on called shots. It *has* been a while since I last booted up the game. As for knockdown and disarm, the mess is greatly reduced by the fact that you have just one character to control.

 

I don't see how you can conduct fire movement, character positioning and other tactical options that are usually implied by a team of more than one - with real time combat in NWN all you have to worry about is going toe to toe with the enemy and pray you have the requisite skills to take it down.

 

That and the fact that the enemy is going to charge right at you all the time. Imagine trying to step back to lob a grenade or toss off a spell only to be met face to face with the enemy - who's just followed you all the way back. With turn based combat, you at least have a sense of how much you can do in the time allotted to you before facing the enemy up close at melee range.

 

ToEE's advantage is precisely because it's turn based - the fact that it has more options not only pertains to the more robust options that *can* be included in a turn based game, but also the fact that you can now utilize a whole range of skills provided for by multiple characters. How is this possible in real time combat? Even NWN is essentially a single-character game with an uncontrollable henchman, restricted to such because - in my view - it is precisely in real time.

 

Pause can be used with real time combat, of course, with options to choose actions prior to unpausing the game, but then fluidity in combat is lost - which I would argue is the purpose of having combat in real time.