Feigned Roleplaying

[Grand_Commander13]

d20 is a rule-set for making the combat portion of characters. Little more is included. So you could apply the d20 system to an RTS game if you wanted to.

 

As for underestimating the choices KOTOR provides, this is where I put in a snide remark to the effect of "what choices?" Really, you decide so little. You choose what NPCs are available to you on the Star Forge, and whether you fight Bastila or three apprentices on the Star Forge. Oh yes, and which gang to waste (though you still kill Brejick in the end) and which tribe to ice. Toss in the fact that you can choose to get yourself banned from Manaan, and you have pretty much the sum total of your "significant" choices in KOTOR.

[HalasterBlack]

 

For me, a rpg is one in which I play a "role" and actually feel like I become that character and start to get pulled in to the main story, as if I'm the leading character in a movie.  I felt KOTOR did that, with me being the lead "actor" and the story pulling me in.  I did not get that same "immersion" from FO, because I didn't feel the main story was as involving.  Yes, the freedom was there, but I don't believe that freedom=roleplaying.

 

Again, that's just my own personal opinion and it obviously doesn't coincide with what the industry defines as a RPG, but for me that's what it is, and that's why I believe that people underestimate the "choices" that KOTOR provides.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly! In KOTOR you were definitly an actor. The whole point of playing an RPG is to be involved in a situation you would not normaly be involved in, and to play out that situation as you choose. To create a very restricting storyline or gameplay along with that almost destroys what could be an even better experience. You are no longer roleplaying but instead, simply particapating with the more restiction in story and gameplay the more restiction in particapation and fun. The entire video game experience is lessened.

[GhostofAnakin]

d20 is a rule-set for making the combat portion of characters.  Little more is included.  So you could apply the d20 system to an RTS game if you wanted to.

 

As for underestimating the choices KOTOR provides, this is where I put in a snide remark to the effect of "what choices?"  Really, you decide so little.  You choose what NPCs are available to you on the Star Forge, and whether you fight Bastila or three apprentices on the Star Forge.  Oh yes, and which gang to waste (though you still kill Brejick in the end) and which tribe to ice.  Toss in the fact that you can choose to get yourself banned from Manaan, and you have pretty much the sum total of your "significant" choices in KOTOR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What would you have done then? I'm honestly curious to know what you'd implement in order to give you more choices, but at the same time keeping the core elements of the story intact (ie. Malak is the final fight "endboss", Bastila becomes his "prisoner").

[ShinIchiro]

d20 is a rule-set for making the combat portion of characters.  Little more is included.  So you could apply the d20 system to an RTS game if you wanted to.

 

As for underestimating the choices KOTOR provides, this is where I put in a snide remark to the effect of "what choices?"  Really, you decide so little.  You choose what NPCs are available to you on the Star Forge, and whether you fight Bastila or three apprentices on the Star Forge.  Oh yes, and which gang to waste (though you still kill Brejick in the end) and which tribe to ice.  Toss in the fact that you can choose to get yourself banned from Manaan, and you have pretty much the sum total of your "significant" choices in KOTOR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I consider 2 different endings a massive variation from the norm RPG now adays.

[Grand_Commander13]

What would I have done?

 

First:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=132220

 

Then, I would have removed all instances of the insta-Stasis. The plot would have been written with this in mind. Bastila would probably either wander into a trap on the third planet, or be taken while she wanders outside the Ebon Hawk (if she's not in your party).

 

Aside from that, I would have focused on a more open feel to the towns, rather than the boxes we have now, and included more places for you to interact and act for the the light or dark. And let's see... You'd start with the Ebon Hawk, not have to become a Jedi, and all around have more freedom of choice.

 

And ShinIchiro: In my opinion, the journey is more important than the end, which is why KOTOR's two endings don't impress me much.

 

Now, I'm going to eat dinner. Yall can rock out to the musical stylings of Shania Twain while I'm gone. "That don't impress me much!" Jam!

[GhostofAnakin]

What would I have done?

 

First:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=132220

 

Then, I would have removed all instances of the insta-Stasis.  The plot would have been written with this in mind.  Bastila would probably either wander into a trap on the third planet, or be taken while she wanders outside the Ebon Hawk (if she's not in your party).

 

Aside from that, I would have focused on a more open feel to the towns, rather than the boxes we have now, and included more places for you to interact and act for the the light or dark.  And let's see...  You'd start with the Ebon Hawk, not have to become a Jedi, and all around have more freedom of choice.

 

And ShinIchiro: In my opinion, the journey is more important than the end, which is why KOTOR's two endings don't impress me much.

 

Now, I'm going to eat dinner.  Yall can rock out to the musical stylings of Shania Twain while I'm gone.  "That don't impress me much!"  Jam!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

All good points. But I'm curious how you'd remove the insta-stasis and still make it so you somehow confront Malak earlier in the game, without being able to kill him? The only thing i can think of is the Calo Nord on Taris situation where if you try and actually fight him, he takes one shot to kill you. But I don't know if that would work in the Malak situation, although it might make the "Bastila rescuing you" scenario seem more realistic just as Malak is about to finish you off.

[Grand_Commander13]

The Malak encounter would be a toughie, to be sure. As is, you certainly didn't need rescuing; Malak was at your mercy. Probably he'd be upped to almost where he is on the Star Forge (but lower damage, so the fight lasts a bit), and continually try to disable you. Once he either succeeded in disabling you, or dropping your VP to 0 (he can have 10 life support packs in his inventory), Bastila screams for Carth to get you out, and throws herself at him with her double-bladed saber.

 

Or, you could play up the "even now, Revan is almost as strong as Malak" card, and have the fight interrupted once either one of you reaches half VP (and have Malak's stats scale with yours, so he's only barely better than you), and if you try to leave through the new exit, Bastila gets tripped up somehow, and if you don't, then a couple Jedi masters pop in and Bastila does the self-sacrifice thing.

 

But anyway, the insta-stasis annoyed me and many others...

[GhostofAnakin]

The one part that I wished would have been a lot better was reaction towards your character based on how you acted and what you'd accomplished. That's something that immediately jumps out at me as shallow design. I think if that were implemented, I'd be satisfied. Then again, I'm relatively easy to please.

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah. I could dig up the old quote, but it's about talking to the jedi council while you obviously look totally darksided.

 

Vandar: "I'm afraid this quest may lead you down an all too familiar path..."

Revan: "Vandar... Look at my face!"

Vandar: *begins to talk*

Revan: "LOOK at my FACE."

 

^_^

 

Here I am walking around with a face like a zombie, Dark Jedi Master Robes, a red double-bladed lightsaber, and beating up little kids for their lunch money, and everybody is saying that I'm a Jedi so I must be good, and my character is talking about saving the Republic. Give me a break. That's probably my single biggest beef with KOTOR: That nobody reacts to your character and how he's developed.

[GhostofAnakin]

Yeah.  I could dig up the old quote, but it's about talking to the jedi council while you obviously look totally darksided.

 

Vandar: "I'm afraid this quest may lead you down an all too familiar path..."

Revan: "Vandar...  Look at my face!"

Vandar: *begins to talk*

Revan: "LOOK at my FACE."

 

^_^

 

Here I am walking around with a face like a zombie, Dark Jedi Master Robes, a red double-bladed lightsaber, and beating up little kids for their lunch money, and everybody is saying that I'm a Jedi so I must be good, and my character is talking about saving the Republic.  Give me a break.  That's probably my single biggest beef with KOTOR: That nobody reacts to your character and how he's developed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think what should have happened was if you appeared too "evil" when you first met the council, they should have rejected teaching you, and then you had to either 1)prove you were good by completing some random "good deed" before they would train you or 2)you get an invite to the Sith academy on Korriban and they teach you.

[LoneWolf16]

I agree with that whole-heartedly, even though I never really play DS, I'd still like those who do to have the same number of choices that I, the LSer, have. Perhaps a more dynamic system for faction recognition? You know, so the NPCs would react according to your DS/LS point level in different ways, since we all know full well that no good jedi carries a blood red double-saber, wears black robes, and looks like death incarnate.

 

Anybody else plagued with a morale code? I mean...I can't even be a jerk in a digital world for god sakes...because afterwards, I'll just end up feeling like an arse and reloading from an earlier save game...

[mastaGAW]

Some things were to wrong like not stopping slavery or destroying the Ouytcasts hope.

[ShinIchiro]

The journey of KOTOR is where the most possiblities lie... Many people complain it doesn't seem to affect the ending or the major plot much, but the little things are very prominant in this game.

[Grand_Commander13]

My journey isn't affected by my choices in any significant way (even a minorly significant one). The world doesn't really change when I make choices, and to make it even worse, my NPCs don't really seem to care about my actions. They could have at LEAST made there be real consequences with your darksided actions, even if the only ones who cared were your LS NPCs.

[ShinIchiro]

My journey isn't affected by my choices in any significant way (even a minorly significant one).  The world doesn't really change when I make choices, and to make it even worse, my NPCs don't really seem to care about my actions.  They could have at LEAST made there be real consequences with your darksided actions, even if the only ones who cared were your LS NPCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The journey isn't affected by the choices.

 

The journey is the choices.

[Grand_Commander13]

In other words, KOTOR's journey isn't much.

 

You keep saying how wonderful and open KOTOR's gameplay is, yet you ignore how few choices you really have, and how insignificant they are.

 

Maybe KOTOR's journey is open compared to Final Fantasy, but not Fallout. And I'm considering playing Fallout 2. It's certainly a lot more fun than sitting here trying to make people understand how boring KOTOR really gets after a second or third playthrough.

[ShinIchiro]

In other words, KOTOR's journey isn't much.

 

You keep saying how wonderful and open KOTOR's gameplay is, yet you ignore how few choices you really have, and how insignificant they are.

 

Maybe KOTOR's journey is open compared to Final Fantasy, but not Fallout.  And I'm considering playing Fallout 2.  It's certainly a lot more fun than sitting here trying to make people understand how boring KOTOR really gets after a second or third playthrough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't ignore how insignificant they are...(though I do think you expect too much). I do disagree with that they are few. I'm sorry if our pitiful attempt at debate where you're saying the same thing over and over again is boring...but ok... I think everyoen else saw this coming when they stopped even trying to argue with you (notice no one else has posted for a while other than us).

[Grand_Commander13]

I'm saying the same thing over and over because you're completely failing to convince me that KOTOR's system of choices is excellent, good, adequete, or even merely below average. It's terrible, insufficient, and not enough to qualify it as a "roleplaying game," as far as the "playing a role" goes (unless you're satisfied by walking on the same path every game, though you do get to choose whether you want to look at Generic Scenery Type A, or Generic Scenery Type B ).

[ShinIchiro]

I'm saying the same thing over and over because you're completely failing to convince me that KOTOR's system of choices is excellent, good, adequete, or even merely below average.  It's terrible, insufficient, and not enough to qualify it as a "roleplaying game," as far as the "playing a role" goes (unless you're satisfied by walking on the same path every game, though you do get to choose whether you want to look at Generic Scenery Type A, or Generic Scenery Type B ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

There are minor decisions...many of them (e.g. what to do with the wraith plate) which, while insignificant, give flavor to the journey and could be considered the journey.

[LoneWolf16]

Shin's got a point...It is indeed the little nuances that give stories their edge, their "flavoring", if you will. Were it not for the nice little touches and psychologically pleasing aspects of KOTOR's "choices", I'd of never even considered playing the game........ok, yeah, I would have played it...but I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

[ShinIchiro]

Shin's got a point...It is indeed the little nuances that give stories their edge, their "flavoring", if you will. Were it not for the nice little touches and psychologically pleasing aspects of KOTOR's "choices", I'd of never even considered playing the game........ok, yeah, I would have played it...but I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks. I was waiting for some one who wasn't too stubborn to admit I'm at least partially right to actually recognize I have a point and might have won this psuedo debate.

[Uthar Wynn 01]

KotOR gets boring after a third playthrough?

 

Well, no s**t.

 

RPGs usually aren't designed to be interesting after more than 2 playthroughs at most.

[alanschu]

I played through KOTOR four times, and enjoyed every playthrough.

 

 

While I would consider Fallout 2 to be a more open ended game than KOTOR.....thinking about it got me thinking.....how so? To be honest.....I'm actually having a hard time coming up with how Fallout 2's story has so much more choice than KOTORs. The only thing I could think of was that a lot of the quests were sidequests, so you had the choice of whether to do them or not.

[CastleBravo]

I played through KOTOR four times, and enjoyed every playthrough.

 

While I would consider Fallout 2 to be a more open ended game than KOTOR.....thinking about it got me thinking.....how so?  To be honest.....I'm actually having a hard time coming up with how Fallout 2's story has so much more choice than KOTORs.  The only thing I could think of was that a lot of the quests were sidequests, so you had the choice of whether to do them or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I recently beat Fallout and have taken a decent bite out of Fallout 2, so here is my take on it.

 

In each Fallout game you get two long-term goals, which you can pursue however you like, or completely ignore for long periods of time. In the first game, you had to get a water chip and then take out the mutant threat. In the second game, you had to get a GECK, then deal with the enclave. These were the anchor points in the game, but you could move around them with total freedom, at least until you hit the edge of the map. Also, you really didn

[Nightvol]

just my little input, as i haven't played fallout (neither of them)

KOTOR was poorly constructed in terms of supporting behaviors other than goody-goody or cartoon villain

in star wars universe, the heroes ARE restricted to only these two behaviors so it's not only kotor. ok they were badly implemented as stated over and over again but no more could have been added

 

EDIT : i meant no more behaviors