Pillars of Eternity End Game -WTF?! White March??!

[Monjoie11]

So, I spent 157 hours on PoE base game. I did everything, EVERYTHING, and treated myself to nuking the end baddy this evening.  So I says to myself, "hey, self, lets do the expansions now." "Great idea, you sexy idea machine," I replied.  So I clicked continue on game load thinking that I would, you know, continue with the content I purchased, and I 'm right back in the fight with the end boss. Can someone please explain to me if this is a bug? Or did I just waste $20 buying expansions I can't play because they're not really expansions, only elaborate side quests that have to be completed before starting act 4 of the base game, like all other side quests. 

If the former, how do I continue on to the expansions ? 

If the latter (which would be some real horse poop) , how do I get my money back? 

Thanks. Margram's flame guide you all.

 

Jeff

Edited February 15, 2021 by Monjoie11
typo

[Boeroer]

@Monjoie11: Hello and welcome!

I can explain the problem:

First of all let's read the official description of the product you bought:

Obsidian said:

Pillars of Eternity: The White March - Part I is a large sprawling expansion pack with hours of gameplay integrated into the main adventure. Along with the new quests and area content, the team at Obsidian continues to support and make improvements to the entire game, including the additions of Player Party AI and Enhanced Enemy AI. Even if you haven't played Pillars of Eternity, now is a great time to jump in and experience the hardcore classic RPG with The White March - Part I.

I marked the part that's especially important to your case. I guess you missed that description when buying the expasions. It's not very aggressively promoted that way and if you just fly over the descriptions before buying you might have missed or forgotten that line. A lot of other players have as well in the past and asked for a solution here, so no shame.

White March I and II do expand the main game. They will add two new areas to the main game's world map (the White March in the north and Crägholt Bluffs which is very tough and lies on the way to the White Mach - don't go there before you go to the White March but on one of your ways back). You can go there anytime you like during your main campaign and solve the related quests. But of course if you go there too early it will be very hard and if you go tehre too late it will be rather easy (although the difficulty will rise steeply and there is an option to scale the content up if the game sees that your level is very high). You can bring/take all items into/from there, it's a seamless integration. So it's a "true" expansion of the main game and not a mini-sequel on the engine of the main game like Throne of Bhaal etc. were.

You can't go back from Sun in Shadows once you jumped down the pit. So if you only have that one single savegame you are screwed. BUT Obsidian made it so that there should be a separate auto-save right before you jump into the pit. I hope you didn't manually delete that. 

So what you can do is to load that save, go to the White March and do stuff, in between go to Crägholt Bluffs and then return to the White March to do the second part. Or in another order - doesn't matter as long as you can handle the content with your party. As I said you can go there and leave at any time.

Naturally you will lose the (little) progress you made in Sun & Shadow and you will have to fight Thaos again since you are reloading the save BEFORE jumping into Sun & Shadow - but I guess that's not too bad since that part is very short anyway. 

Thaos will be ridiculously easy after WMI/II compared to before so that shouldn't be a mechanical problem. Just a bit meh to have to do it twiche maybe.

You could also do a completely new playthrough if you wished. There are many new/cool items and stuff that might motivate you to try a completely different character. If you played PoE for the story then that's maybe too boring because that part will not change obviously, but with a different character and also party compistion there's still a lot of stuff to discover one might have missed in the first run - e.g. when deciding for a particular faction and missing out the quests of the other factions (naturally). Or the companion quests of somebody you didn't pick up. Or the dialoge lines you couldn't unlock because you didn't have the right skills/attributes/class/race etc. 

Hope that helps, cheers! 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Well I said you would be screwed if you only have that one last savegame but that's not entirely true if you are not playing on consoles. 

If you are on PC/Mac/Linux you can use a cheat code to teleport you from Sun in Shadow to any other map and from there you could travel to the White March like normal. If nothing else works this might salvage your playthrough maybe. But I personally would prefer to load that save right before jumping into the pit. 

[asnjas]

You fkt up.

The game clearly warns that you cant return if you jump down the hole.

Yes they are elaborate side quests, arguably the best parts of the game.

Sayonara

[Boeroer]

54 minutes ago, asnjas said:

The game clearly warns that you cant return if you jump down the hole. 

Very true my genius level glue sommelier - but if one believed that the expansions follow the completion of the main game this wouldn't be a perceived problem, would it?

[asnjas]

On 3/4/2021 at 11:20 PM, Boeroer said:

Very true my genius level glue sommelier - but if one believed that the expansions follow the completion of the main game this wouldn't be a perceived problem, would it?

Hah. I must be really something. 

Believe in whatever you want. The game doesnt lead you to think the expacks pick up after the main game. The game prompts you to white march well before drop into the pit. The game throws out a carrot to lure you on into white march. What the game certainly does not do in any way is hint that the expacks continue  after the main game is completed. Nothing. If you get the wrong idea then sometimes its on you... 

[Boeroer]

Ah, but that's only the case if you have installed the expansions before starting with the main game. If you played and nearly completed the main game - or even already completed it - and only then buy and install the expansions there will be no carrot. There will only be one sentence in the store that tells you that those expansion don't take place after the main game. And if you believed that the expansions may take place after the main game as so many other expansions of RPGs do then you might have overlooked that.

Completely understandable. And since so many players used to ask that question it seems that this is a common problem.

But of course you knew it better. Such a nice brain. My applause

 

[Monjoie11]

So here's me responding to myself: bummer you missed out on  the white march. Thankfully you didn't make the same mistake with Deadfire, which is so much better (and it's hard to say PoE left a lot of room for improvement in the first place) that it's hardly worth shedding a tear over. On a game-time to dollars spent ratio I'm looking at about 4.5hr/$1 for the whole package I bought and I'm only done with one Deadfire expansion. This would make the PoE I and  PoE II package one of the most reasonably priced games I've ever played, even with the lost money on the PoE I expansions. This ratio doesn't matter satisfaction, which is off the charts.

I will say that as an rpg player, I prefer the mini-sequel type of expansion to the elaborate side-quest style used in PoE franchise. Beast of Winter did a lot to explore my past in PoE I and further draw me into the plot of Deadfire. I'd hate to think if I had played this game at it's release I would have missed that, or would have had to go back to a previous save to experience it. Thankfully it's a moot point coming in 3 years late, but for PoE III (pretty please tell me there will be a third) I would hope to see a resurrections of the usual after-story type expansions.

[Boeroer]

If I were you I would have done a second playthrough of PoE with the WM expansions. They are quite good imo and I think PoE has a lot of replay value. 

Currently a third installment of the PoE series is not likely to happen because in comparison to PoE,Deadfire was not a convincing financial success and the developers were pretty disappointed. Deadfire broke even some time ago so it wasn't a financial desaster - but I guess as developer/publisher you just expect more. Maybe the the aquisition by Microsoft and the Game Pass programm there's still hope, but so far there are no official infos about it. 

The next game set in Eora will be "Avowed", but it's a 1st-person game like Skyrim etc., not a isometic-ish party RPG. 

[Dukemon]

On 4/18/2021 at 12:59 PM, Boeroer said:

If I were you I would have done a second playthrough of PoE with the WM expansions. They are quite good imo and I think PoE has a lot of replay value. 

Currently a third installment of the PoE series is not likely to happen because in comparison to PoE,Deadfire was not a convincing financial success and the developers were pretty disappointed. Deadfire broke even some time ago so it wasn't a financial desaster - but I guess as developer/publisher you just expect more. Maybe the the aquisition by Microsoft and the Game Pass programm there's still hope, but so far there are no official infos about it. 

The next game set in Eora will be "Avowed", but it's a 1st-person game like Skyrim etc., not a isometic-ish party RPG. 

I do hope that there will be a PoE3. Microsoft has no other active Iso cRPG.

That problem with Deadfire is, it was already to much Skyrim and similar, and far to little PoE1. However, the fools above the developers that have nothing to do with the actual development came to the conclusion it was too less Skyrim, Assassins Creed and similar, and to much PoE1. That is why Obisidan Developers were forbidden to develop a PoE3 more in the direction of PoE1, instead detaching themselves from PoE and using another game title, so as not to be prejudiced against being more PoE1.

 

To Topic: I liked the way The White Mark worked. Why additional contentt have to set after the main game? This forces certain outcomes that are not uncomfortable. (Death of the protagonist (due to "wrong" decisions))
Dragon Age Awakening is a perfect example of this. The developers still had the death of the player character in mind, but its continuation was integrated completely wrong.
The developers preferred to undo the death because it was an uncomfortable experience for the player. It could fixed in Dragon Age Keep, but it was way to late and for a more bad Dragon Age. I liked Soldiers Peak, it was midgame content. 

The White Mark is not my favorit biome, that has to be said but does not changed how it extended the told lore of Eora, for example. Explains even the details that you encounter in the later part of the game. (Abydon and Ondra)

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dukemon

[teo22]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:58 PM, Boeroer said:

@Monjoie11: 
I can explain the problem:

First of all let's read the official description of the product you bought:

Pillars of Eternity: The White March - Part I is a large sprawling expansion pack with hours of gameplay integrated into the main adventure. Along with the new quests and area content, the team at Obsidian continues to support and make improvements to the entire game, including the additions of Player Party AI and Enhanced Enemy AI. Even if you haven't played Pillars of Eternity, now is a great time to jump in and experience the hardcore classic RPG with The White March - Part I.

I marked the part that's especially important to your case. I guess you missed that description when buying the expasions.

Integrated does not mean what you seem to think it means.

integrated
adjective
with various parts or aspects linked or coordinated.

integrate
verb
(of a thing) combine with another to form a whole.

Integrated just means it's a part of the main campaign. It doesn't imply anything about not being able to complete it after a certain point in the main campaign. You don't start the expansion separately from the main menu—It's integrated into the campaign.

And if you, like me, bought the expansion with the base game, you'd have no way of knowing that the game doesn't let you return after the final mission. Not even if you read the store description, which I never do because they tend to spoil 90% of the game I'm about to play anyway.

Yes, it's safe to assume that jumping into a pit means you have to finish that quest line before returning. That could be considered common sense. But nothing in the game hints or warns that you can't return even after the quest has been finished.

[Boeroer]

11 hours ago, teo22 said:

Integrated does not mean what you seem to think it means.

integrated
adjective
with various parts or aspects linked or coordinated.

integrate
verb
(of a thing) combine with another to form a whole.

Integrated just means it's a part of the main campaign. It doesn't imply anything about not being able to complete it after a certain point in the main campaign. You don't start the expansion separately from the main menu—It's integrated into the campaign.

And if you, like me, bought the expansion with the base game, you'd have no way of knowing that the game doesn't let you return after the final mission. Not even if you read the store description, which I never do because they tend to spoil 90% of the game I'm about to play anyway.

Yes, it's safe to assume that jumping into a pit means you have to finish that quest line before returning. That could be considered common sense. But nothing in the game hints or warns that you can't return even after the quest has been finished.

That's a nice story and you tell it well...

...but the game literally and explicitly warns you (with a popup!) before jumping into the pit that you cannot go back afterwards.

And for those players who didn't read the description of the DLCs and also clicked away the warning popup without reading it, the game does an automatic save right before the jump. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Boeroer

[teo22]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

That's a nice story and you tell it well...

...but the game literally and explicitly warns you (with a popup!) before jumping into the pit that you cannot go back afterwards.

And for those players who didn't read the description of the DLCs and also clicked away the warning popup without reading it, the game does an automatic save right before the jump. 

It doesn't. At least not always. I checked before I made my post. Then I watched someone else play that part on youtube (from 2 years ago, so likely the latest patch) in case me loading the save file negated the pop-up . He didn't get any warning pop-up either.

Now after your post, I looked up four (4) more Let's plays. Not a single pop-up. I've seen people online mention a warning pop-up, but I haven't actually seen one. Nor a screenshot of one.

[Boeroer]

Even if you didn't receive any warning that jumping into the pit means endgame with no return: the auto save should give you a means to go back and do the DLC contents then.

That's not optimal because you'll have to do the encounter with Thaos again - but it's a reasonable failsafe for players who didn't get how the DLCs are woven into the game and who also didn't get the information that jumping into the pit means that there's no way back.

There will always be players who will be surprised by this because they played other games in which the expansions start after the main game (notably D&D games like BG2 and such) - and they assume that this will be the case with PoE as well. It's not great for them to be surprised like that - but what else should the devs have done to prevent it? The description of the DLCs mentions how they work, there is supposed to be a warning before you reach the point of no return and you'll get an automatic save. I think those measures are quite reasonable.