[5.0 class build] "Keeper" - universalist (ancient/priest of wael)

[Elric Galad]

57 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

White Worms is very good? The only thing that's stupid about it is that it fails to work every now and then because it seems you have to succeed at a hidden hit roll against the corpse(?).

My main pb with it is that Thrice she was Wronged is so much more convenient to use as a 3 phrases Invocation. It's unconditionnal, it does comparable damages (with the upgrade of course), has a near-instant cast (making it almost uninteruptible, great utility when compared with higher level offensive invocation). On the other side White Wurms upgrade has a (rather long) sickening effect... like half of the abilities of the game  

Why would I bother spending ability points on Wurms ? You cannot even control which corpse will explode.

The "roll-vs-corpse" thing is interesting. I might start from setting it to auto-hit. Possibly adding Corrode type alternate damage and Acid KW to support Acid Chanter (who currently only has Boil their Flesh). Then what ? Buffing damages ?

[Boeroer]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Why would I bother spending ability points on Wurms ? You cannot even control which corpse will explode.

Because its base damage is very high for a PL 1 2 ability, the size of the AoE is enormous and you determine which corpse will explode. The AoE that gets displayed originates from the corpse you target with the mouse. That one will explode, damaging all enemies in the big circular AoE. The really annoying part is that it sometimes fails which makes it unreliable and thus unattractive. Making it auto-hit might be a double-edged sword because then maybe not only the "attack on corpse" will auto-hit but the explosion as well? What do you think?

Edited October 16, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

28 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Because its base damage is very high for a PL 1 ability, the size of the AoE is enormous and you determine which corpse will explode. The AoE that gets displayed originates from the corpse you target with the mouse. That one will explode, damaging all enemies in the big circular AoE. The really annoying part is that it something fails which makes it unreliable and thus unattractive. Making it auto-hit might be a double-edged sword because then maybe not only the "attack on corpse" will auto-hit but the explosion as well? What do you think?

It's PL 2 (same phrase cost though).
AoE is a good argument indeed.
Oooh I think I didn't get what was happening with this spell when the corpse I thought I targetted didn't work.
Attacks are separate items in the data so it should not be too complicated to distinguish the two.

I still think the spell is not rewarding enough for how situational it is.
Simple changes I think could make it good enough :
- Auto-hit on the corpse (this one is mandatory I think)
- Corrode alternate damages and Acid KW (This one is because Disease KW on Crush damages make no sense)
- Align cast time with Thrice she was Wronged
- Add Interrupt on Hit, 'cause Boom. Coupled with the previous one, I think it will ensure an utility to the spell.

[Ivanfyodorovich]

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Simple changes I think could make it good enough :
- Auto-hit on the corpse (this one is mandatory I think)
- Corrode alternate damages and Acid KW (This one is because Disease KW on Crush damages make no sense)
- Align cast time with Thrice she was Wronged
- Add Interrupt on Hit, 'cause Boom. Coupled with the previous one, I think it will ensure an utility to the spell.

I think these are reasonable, though the dual damage might be a little too strong (without checking every class, I'm confident this is the highest damage AoE spell at PL2 for any class by a big margin, which means it scales very well with PL). You could reduce the damage a little to compensate, or instead, add a corrode DoT to the upgrade to make it more compelling. 

Coming back to adding Poison Keywords, to confirm, we want to add Poison to these abilities: 

Vile Thorns

Plague of Insects

Venombloom (check to make sure it isn't double dipping, since it already benefits from Poison PL now)

Toxic Strike (needs the antidote KW added, too)

I'm happy to test these if that saves you time. Let me know!

 

[Boeroer]

9 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I think these are reasonable, though the dual damage might be a little too strong (without checking every class, I'm confident this is the highest damage AoE spell at PL2 for any class by a big margin, which means it scales very well with PL).

 

Exactly. I think if you have some great alpha striker in the party who can kill one enemy (who can leave a corpse) very quickly at the start of the encounter this spell is just fun as hell. The base dmg per m² is unmatched I think.  

9 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

or instead, add a corrode DoT to the upgrade to make it more compelling.

That sounds good. One doesn't really value the sickening effect because a Chanter can have stuff like The Long Night's Drink which applies weakened and MIG debuff via chant. 

[Ivanfyodorovich]

6 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Exactly. I think if you have some great alpha striker in the party who can kill one enemy (who can leave a corpse) very quickly at the start of the encounter this spell is just fun as hell. The base dmg per m² is unmatched I think.  

I did some digging and the closest spell is Ocean Burst, which is PL 5 and only Tekehu, deals crush, interrupt on crit,  same 2.5m radius, but you can cast it when/where you want. You don’t get a higher base damage AOE until Tornado for Druid.
For priest Pillar of Holy Fire at PL6 is the first aoe with higher base dmg (though smaller AoE). For Wizard, Torrent of Flame at 5 is the first spell with higher base damage. 

[Boeroer]

And then we'll have to keep in mind that those spells gain less PL scaling - or was that already included in your analysis?

[Elric Galad]

50 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Coming back to adding Poison Keywords, to confirm, we want to add Poison to these abilities: 

Vile Thorns

Plague of Insects

Venombloom (check to make sure it isn't double dipping, since it already benefits from Poison PL now)

Toxic Strike (needs the antidote KW added, too)

And Cobra weapon summons (to align with Firebrand Fire KW)

And Wall of Thorns

 

Invocations are usually stronger than equivalent Tier spells. This is normal for me. A couple Tier higher I would say. If if want to compare a Tier II Invocation, I would rather look at Tier IV spells. And this one is also conditional.
But you're right to point that the damages and AoE are good, and the upgrade is meh. No one really care about this Sickening effect. I simply don't too much changing the effect.
Also, I still trouble with this disease-based crush damages
 

Edit : I also said that Thrice she was wronged does more damages per target with the upgrade if you count the bounce. What is easier ? Getting targets within Thrice AoE or getting a corpse AND targets in its location. I didn't say the spell is bad, it just seemed less good.
Anyway, I will a bit about this.


By the way, do you think that Boil their Flesh need a buff ? (I have already replaced the secondary cones which didn't work properly by a 2,5 AoE) by the damages feel a bit low. You need several kills to get a better effect than Death Ring, and it costs 6 phrases ! (the fact I didn't pick it with my SC Skald worries me)

Edited October 16, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

14 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

By the way, do you think that Boil their Flesh need a buff ? (I have already replaced the secondary cones which didn't work properly by a 2,5 AoE) by the damages feel a bit low. You need several kills to get a better effect than Death Ring, and it costs 6 phrases ! (the fact I didn't pick it with my SC Skald worries me)

I do think the damage is low. It seems like the "budget" for the ability was spent on the "on death" effect, which you are right, is a little too situational. Wilting Wind is PL8 and does 55-68 base. Maybe you could tune up Boil Their Flesh to 30-34? 25% increase over current. 

[Elric Galad]

20 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I do think the damage is low. It seems like the "budget" for the ability was spent on the "on death" effect, which you are right, is a little too situational. Wilting Wind is PL8 and does 55-68 base. Maybe you could tune up Boil Their Flesh to 30-34? 25% increase over current. 

That's why I'm comparing it with Death Ring.

Death Ring is Tier VI.
Boil the flesh is Tier VII Chanter (which should be around Tier IX.) Remember what Eld Nary does for 1 more Tier and 1 less phrase. 

Boil the flesh require 2 kills to really start doing more damages. 

I think the damages could almost be doubled without making the spell OP. Casting time could also be lowered (this might be a wiser way).

I think that the upgrade is good enough, though.

[Ivanfyodorovich]

37 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

And then we'll have to keep in mind that those spells gain less PL scaling - or was that already included in your analysis?

I was just looking at the base DMG, so that makes White Worms slightly stronger. Some info for fun below. 

PL3: Noxious Burst: 32-43 corrode vs. FOR (+sickened) // White Worms: 48-61 crush vs. REF (w/ PL scaling)

PL4: Calling the World's Maw: 32-54 pierce vs. REF (+prone) // White Worms: 51-64 crush vs. REF (w/ PL scaling)

PL5: Ocean Burst: 50-62 crush vs. REF // White Worms 53-67 crush vs. REF (w/ PL scaling)

PL6: Pillar of Holy Fire: 65-78 burn vs. REF (smaller AoE) // White Worms: 55-70 crush vs. REF (w/ PL scaling)

PL9: Tornado: 45-72 crush base vs. FOR (+knockup, double the radius) // White Worms 62-78 crush vs. REF (w/ PL scaling)

[Ivanfyodorovich]

22 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

That's why I'm comparing it with Death Ring.

Death Ring is Tier VI.
Boil the flesh is Tier VII Chanter (which should be around Tier IX.) Remember what Eld Nary does for 1 more Tier and 1 less phrase. 

Boil the flesh require 2 kills to really start doing more damages. 

I think the damages could almost be doubled without making the spell OP. Casting time could also be lowered (this might be a wiser way).

I think that the upgrade is good enough, though.

That's fair. Maybe a more modest damage increase along with a phrase reduction and cast time reduction would be better to prevent power creep? 

[Elric Galad]

23 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

That's fair. Maybe a more modest damage increase along with a phrase reduction and cast time reduction would be better to prevent power creep? 

Fast casting would be great because finishing a near death target requires reactivity. 0,5s/4,5s for example (slightly longer recovery) 

Initial damages can be doubled. 48-54 raw starts looking decent. Still inferior to other Chanter offensive if you don't get any additional explosion (except vs high AR).

Secondary corrode damages can be left alone. This would prevent the spell to have a too high ceiling value.

Phrase cost is based on Tier for other spells. Better not changing hidden rules. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Simple changes I think could make it good enough :
- Auto-hit on the corpse (this one is mandatory I think)
- Corrode alternate damages and Acid KW (This one is because Disease KW on Crush damages make no sense)
- Align cast time with Thrice she was Wronged
- Add Interrupt on Hit, 'cause Boom. Coupled with the previous one, I think it will ensure an utility to the spell.

hey, as someone who used the corpse explosion invocation alot, i think you're understating how good the ability is. just give it an auto-hit on the corpse and the rest will take care of itself. it has huge aoe (way better than thrice), better overall damage than thrice (so long as you're targeting a corpse you have a decent chance to hit), and can be upgraded to provide a very long debuff.

on potd, in which i used the corpse invocation to good effect, having to roll to hit the corpse acted like a damage nerf, e.g. a 75% chance to hit is effectively the same as a -25% multiplicative damage debuff. making it autohit essentially automatically buffs the damage (e.g. in this case +33%).

 

[thelee]

28 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Fast casting would be great because finishing a near death target requires reactivity. 0,5s/4,5s for example (slightly longer recovery) 

is boil their flesh an instakill spell with an ok failure mode, or a damage spell that can also instakill? right now it's mediocre at both.

i think i would prefer it to be an instakill spell with an ok failure mode, which means i would prefer to have a fast cast time like that, but not really worry about buffing the raw damage (maybe the corrode damage).

Edited October 16, 2020 by thelee

[Ivanfyodorovich]

Just now, thelee said:

is boil their flesh an instakill spell with an ok failure mode, or a damage spell that can also instakill? right now it's mediocre at both.

i think i would prefer it to be an instakill spell with an ok failure mode, which means i would prefer to have a fast cast time like that, but not really worry about buffing the raw damage (maybe the corrode damage).

I like that approach - buff the on-death effect to make it worth casting for 1 instakill. If you get more than 1, you are getting much better than average results. 

[thelee]

1 minute ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I like that approach - buff the on-death effect to make it worth casting for 1 instakill. If you get more than 1, you are getting much better than average results. 

yeah - i agree with as you mentioned upthread, they spent alot of the "budget" on the instakill effect, but in practice it's so slow to build up phrases and the cast time is so slow that it's much harder to use opportunistically as an instakill spell than any other instakill spell, and the aoe is janky enough that unlike death ring it is surprisingly hard to get more than one instakill (and even on potd when i can have more than one instakill by the time cast time completes i might have already killed one of the other targets). so making it more reactive and worthwhile to use an instakill spell for just an expected value of 1 target will help a lot i think.

[Ivanfyodorovich]

@Elric Galad What if you set the cast time to .5, leave the raw DMG what it is, but increase the corrode explosion to 50-60 corrode? 

[Elric Galad]

8 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

@Elric Galad What if you set the cast time to .5, leave the raw DMG what it is, but increase the corrode explosion to 50-60 corrode? 

That's another option to make the spell more focused.
0,5s/4s cast time
24 - 27 raw
48 - 54 corrode 

White Wurms :
Auto-hit the corpse
I'm still annoyed that invisble Disease KW does not make sense with Crush damages and Sickened vs Will (seems to be s stench rather than a disease)...

Edited October 16, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Ivanfyodorovich]

Just now, Elric Galad said:

That's another option to make the spell more focused.
0,5s/4s cast time
24 - 27 raw
48 - 54 corrode 

White Wurms :
Auto-hit the corpse
I'm still annoyed that invisble Disease KW does not make sense with Crush damages and Sickened vs Will (seems to be s stench rather than a disease)...

What if you remove the disease flag from the initial ability, but keep it on the upgrade and add something to strengthen the upgrade. Maybe increase the duration, add a corrode DoT, or add a second affliction (Hobbled or Shaken)?

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Ivanfyodorovich said:

What if you remove the disease flag from the initial ability, but keep it on the upgrade and add something to strengthen the upgrade. Maybe increase the duration, add a corrode DoT, or add a second affliction (Hobbled or Shaken)?

The issue is that putting a KW somewhere in the ability gamedata usually make the whole effect tagged, unless I'm mistaken. I can't name a single ability which is partially resisted by Poison Immune. 

Probably what you say is what the dev intended, but somehow, the code can't handle it.

Maybe I'll send you a file to test for confirming this. This could change many things in this discussion. 

[Ivanfyodorovich]

Just now, Elric Galad said:

The issue is that putting a KW somewhere in the ability gamedata usually make the whole effect tagged, unless I'm mistaken. I can't name a single ability which is partially resisted by Poison Immune. 

Probably what you say is what the dev intended, but somehow, the code can't handle it.

Maybe I'll send you a file to test for confirming this. This could change many things in this discussion. 

Look at Withering Strike, maybe? It is not poison, but Toxic Strike is? I'd be glad to test a file, too! 

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Ivanfyodorovich said:

Look at Withering Strike, maybe? It is not poison, but Toxic Strike is? I'd be glad to test a file, too! 

Ah, yes, you mean letting the KW only on the upgrade. Yup, this is possible.

[Elric Galad]

@Ivanfyodorovich the file below about the White Wurms UPGRADE ONLY :

- Change to auto-hit the corpse trigger
- remove the disease KW from the d amage attack and only leave it on the status

cl.chanter.white_wurms.gamedatabundle

[Elric Galad]

New version :
non-upgraded version and upgraded version should be auto-hit.
non-upgraded version has no keyword anymore.
upgraded version has KW only on the status (but it might cause the whole attak to fail against disease immune. This is to be tested)

cl.chanter.white_wurms.gamedatabundle