Spellblade Question

[dgray62]

I was thinking of trying a run as an assassin bloodmage. I was wondering which spells tend to reliably get the assassinate bonus when cast from stealth. I understand that DoT spells do not, and even spells with a slight delay between casting and the spell hitting, such as fireball, often don't get the bonus. I play in real time; I gather that things are quite different in turn based.

[Boeroer]

DoTs do get the ACC bonus. But the following ticks will not get a PEN or dmg bonus because those are calculated in real time and you won't be invisible anymore. 

Also most DoT ticks break invisibility except Vanishing Strikes.

On of the best synergies for an Assassin/Bloodmage is that Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure creates an invisibility that will not break as long as you don't damage the target(s). All CC spells without damage can be cast from invisibility without breaking it. You can completely disable opponents with dozens of debuffs before using the final nuke. Also Wall spells don't break it (no even the damaging ones). So you can stay invisible forever with Wall of Draining + Brilliant Departure for example.

Fireball usually gets the Assassinate bonus by the way. At least from stealth. It depends a bit on the ability you are using for invisibility and on the spell you use for dealing damage (how it applies its AoE without much delay). For example Shadowing Beyond is fiddly while Smoke Veil is much more forgiving. Stealth is better, too. Also Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure is better. 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[dgray62]

Thanks for the advice, Boeroer. I like the idea of debuffing from invisibility, and then nuking.

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Also most DoT ticks break invisibility except Vanishing Strikes.

minor correction - the initial DoT landing does, but DoT ticks do not break most invisibility. They do break stealth (though i'm not sure how you would be stealthed in a legitimate scenario where you managed to land a DoT) and they break shadowing beyond/enduring shadows, but not any of the other invisibilities.

 

keeping in mind DoTs are different from things like wall of fire or venombloom.

 

edit: after the last discussion on invisibility mechanics on the forums, i updated my section on the guide to be as comprehensive and accurate as possible. i'm pretty sure it's accurate, and honestly for myself it's hard to keep a handle on all the various oddities about invisibility and stealth without referring to it: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/227477-pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire/faqs/76599/invisibility-vs-stealth

Edited August 19, 2020 by thelee

[dgray62]

Thanks, Thelee. I'll check out your faq.

[Boeroer]

8 hours ago, thelee said:

minor correction - the initial DoT landing does, but DoT ticks do not break most invisibility. They do break stealth (though i'm not sure how you would be stealthed in a legitimate scenario where you managed to land a DoT) and they break shadowing beyond/enduring shadows, but not any of the other invisibilities.

DoTs also break Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure. At least I can't cast Disintegrate or Gouging Strike or use N.'s Cobra Strike and then use ABD -> leads to instant "revisibility". That only leaves Smoke Veil and Assassin's Slippers (and I'm not sure about the last one) which are so short that it doesn't matter much for DoTs damage - since only a few ticks will get covered. But they can be very useful for applying a DoT and then walking away unseen, waiting in the shadows until the target is dead. 

Assassinate can help with DoTs since it's a lot easier to land them from stealth/invisibility in the first place. When I play an Assassin/Bleak Walker with an Arquebus+modal I usually open from stealth with an Arterial Strike, then immediately (stealth removes 80% recovery/reload) a Gouging Strike and then immediately (reload is cancelable) use Smoke Veil and walk away until the enemy is dead. For example. But if the enemy is very hard to hit I start with the Gouging Strike to get the 25 ACC for that one and the try the Arterial. One can do the same with Brand Enemy instead of Gouging Strike by the way. It will always hit - so you don't even need Assassinate for it. So you could do Gouging+Arterial+Brand+Smoke Veil with nearly 0 recovery. That's not a move for Assassin/Wizard obviously but just an example how DoTs and Assassinate can work together even if the DoTs don't get a huge PEN or dmg bump.

[Haplok]

I think one group of spells worth checking are the rays. For sure they are much trickier to use in Real Time with Assassination, but their behavior in Turn Based was interesting enough to warrant more testing in real time, I think.

Notably the ray hits didn't necessarily break invisibility - as long as one stays outside enemy sight cones.

 

I'm really amazed to read about some risk of breaking stealth with Fireball in real-time. In turn-based it was an Assassination staple (okay, actually Shadowflame was, but they are somewhat similar).

 

I think one group of spells worth checking are the rays. For sure they are much trickier to use in Real Time with Assassination, but their behavior in Turn Based was interesting enough to warrant more testing in real time, I think.

Notably the ray hits didn't necessarily break invisibility - as long as one stays outside enemy sight cones.

 

I'm really amazed to read about some risk of breaking stealth with Fireball in real-time. In turn-based it was an Assassination staple (okay, actually Shadowflame was, but they are somewhat similar).

 

Other then that, I can't recommend Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst enough   Due to its unusually high Pen, with the Assassinate bonus of +4 Pen, it very often Overpenetrates for additional +30% damage on crit. I've used it like 70% of the time after I got it.

Sadly its PL VI, so comes late. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Fireballs etc. do work well with Assassinate in RTwP - just not with Shadowing Beyond. From stealth I never had issues with all direct/instant damage AoE spells + Assassinate. Spirit Lance doesn't work though and also the other AoE weapons don't. Their secondary AoE seems to have long of a delay to get the bonus.

[dgray62]

Thanks for the tips, Boeroer and Haplok. Based on your comments above, Boeroer, I can see that you have tried an assassin mindstalker. How did that work out? Did you use the beguiler subclass or something else?

[thelee]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

DoTs also break Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure. At least I can't cast Disintegrate or Gouging Strike or use N.'s Cobra Strike and then use ABD -> leads to instant "revisibility". That only leaves Smoke Veil and Assassin's Slippers (and I'm not sure about the last one) which are so short that it doesn't matter much for DoTs damage - since only a few ticks will get covered. But they can be very useful for applying a DoT and then walking away unseen, waiting in the shadows until the target is dead. 

what a never-ending source of confusion *cries*

[thelee]

8 hours ago, Haplok said:

I'm really amazed to read about some risk of breaking stealth with Fireball in real-time.

I think here assassinate is a beneficiary of some of the mechanics of turn-based. i know that eld nary with a bellower is pretty much THE optimal bellower build in turn-based, where it's much less good in real time. i wonder if turn-based makes the assassinate bonus or invisibility last long enough to benefit something like a fireball?

Edited August 20, 2020 by thelee

[dgray62]

Based on what Haplok has reported, it sounds like an assassin spell blade, like the bellower, is better in turn based that real time. It seems that invisibility is much more problematic in real time.

[Haplok]

Well, Turn Based certainly is a favorable environment for an Assasin Spellblade. Also because how the ray spells have been translated to Turns. 

 

On the other hand, the action economy is more crucial in Turn Based. In Real Time there are more valid options I feel (and more varied action speed/recovery values).

I never once used Arkemyrs Brilliant Departure or Smoke Veil. Simply because "wasting" a whole round just to hide seemed awfully inefficient. 

[Boeroer]

4 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Based on your comments above, Boeroer, I can see that you have tried an assassin mindstalker. How did that work out? Did you use the beguiler subclass or something else?

I only tested Assassin/Soulblade during a session with the console. I did not really use any Assassin/Cipher in a playthrough.

However: I did play a Debonaire/Beguiler (because Whisper of Treason or Ring Leader give you 100% crit conversion for your Disintegrate - and Disintegrate doesn't flip charmed enemies back). I guess the playstyle was almost the same as Assassin/Beguiler would have been...?

Assassin/Soulblade would be more focused on delivering Soul Annihilation from stealth/invisibility with Sneak Attack, Deathblows, Assassinate and Backstab bonuses I guess. 

[Haplok]

All these controversies and doubts are tempting me to try another game with a Spellblade Assassin - in Real Time - to compare and also try to use other spells a bit more.

[dgray62]

Haplok, if you do this, please let us know how this build compares in real time vs. turn based.

[Haplok]

Well, I probably won't be repeating the game. But I did switch the Turn Based mode into Real Time to do a few tests.

First, the build is nowhere near as strong and sturdy as in Turn Based. Buffing remains pretty fast, but Blood Sacrifice has a noticable delay. So usually you can't really spam all the buffs and then recover  all spell slots. 

But there are also positives. You can effectively hide with greater frequency (Shadow Veil costs only 2 Guile, if you use a grimoire with Arkemyr's Departure, that's another option).

With Arkemyr's Departure, you can debuff enemies to your hearts' content. There are also spells which work better in Turn Based. Notably Delayed Fireball is quite awesome. Note you can hide after you cast it and before it explodes. Its also cool to use from Arkemyr's Departure. Ninagauth's Pillar also seems to work better (although it will break Invisibility after the hit).

Also damaging Walls do break invisibility.

 

Its all a lot more dynamic, risky, but possibly also more fun.

[Haplok]

What hasn't really changed, is how useful Engoliero de Espirs is for a Bloodmage (though rogue weapon boosts certainly help a lot). Due to the more chaotic flow of combat, it is much more difficult to set up those impressive kill cascades that clear whole rooms. Perhaps for the best in Real Time, as gradual kills can cause a lot of healing over time trough Blade Feast special. During cascades, a lot of healing potential goes to waste because of "overheal". 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Haplok