Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I guess you didn't mean to adress me with "Youhou" but that it's just an exclamation of joy. But I'll respond to this anyway.

I did mean to address you because you already told your hate of Cooldoown previously.

Good to see a more in depth analysis about the reason why.

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I don't like it when cooldowns are used as a basic mechanic or cornerstone of a system. See Tyranny or Diablo etc.

Although one could see recovery as a sort of cooldown, it's not really for me because it's universal: all actions (except walking) have to wait until you can act again, while cooldowns on abilities only affect the use of that ability.
Thus a system with ability-cooldowns as the go-to mechanic usually leads to a behaviour where you spam all abilities you have to prevent to wait for any cooldown to complete - and then you start the cycle anew. As a result the player tends to pick up as many different abilities as they can.
For the opposite reason I also don't like fixed, non-replenishable resources (see Guile etc.) - because they do the opposite: abilities fight for the resource points and players will get motivated to only pick very few of those abilities which will need that "fuel".
Both approaches limit the player in a way that I think is "unfun".

Recovery is kind of a cooldown for the whole character. This prevents the (imo) awful results ability cooldowns will lead to.
When I talk about cooldowns I mean ability-cooldowns that only prevent the usage of that (or a certain subset of) action.

That doesn't mean that cooldowns cannot solve problems easily - like spamming spiritshift for spike healing when you are a shifter - without putting the whole character into a pause (like recovery does). If they are not everywhere they are not too bad per se.
I just realize that spiritshift should have a longer animation phase though - could solve some problems and make cooldown redundant... but that's another discussion. 

I still wouldn't put abilitycooldowns into a system if there's only one small use-case. As I wouldn't do that with any mechanic really since it makes the mechanics less systemic and less predictable.

But since there's already cooldowns in Deadfire's system (Grimoire switching causes a cooldown on spells only, there's a cooldown on modals like proficiencies and chants - but weapon switching induces no cooldown but adds recovery time, reloading is basically a cooldown for that specific weapon, but I digress...) I think it's okay to use them to prevent spammage in certain situations - without locking the whole char down - like recovery would do.

I don't know about any cooldown with Forbidden Fist though. It puts a stackng curse on you that raises its cost by 1 wound. Afaik nothing (besides getting knocked out) prevents you from using it over and over again - as long as you have the wounds for it. Or what did I miss? 

FF has no real cooldoown, but if you want to use FF ability as a wound generator, you have to wait for the expiration of the curse.

Basically it is a soft cooldoown

 

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Oh, good point. That would get lost with an per-encounter ability, true. Hm... But on the other hand: Form of the Fearsome Brute and other shapeshifting stuff (Changeling's Mantle) are not cancelable either. And do players really use that feature of "cancelablility" (is that a word?) often with Spiritshift? It makes a lot of sense with weapon prof. and chants - but I believe Spiritshift gets cancelled almost never (unless Shifter who gets pummeled too badly - but still weird action to unshift just in order to heal imo).

And cast spells. Shifter can't cast spell while shifted. So it would be a significant nerf.

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

So... one reason more to implement it as a proper "non-funky" modal, eh?

But actually FotFB leads me to these other thoughts:

Generally a good idea imo. Not as a modal though. Form of the Fearsome Brute already is a shapeshifting spell and that kind of works. At least handling Spiritshift the same as FotEB would add consistency.
But on the other hand: what about Shifter?  4 shifting spells in one tier sounds bad. Just add 1 form in every tier until PL4?

Shifter would be hurt but I usually consider Shifter as slightly OP since they don't have a real drawback (want to cast a spell ? Cancel your form). They would still get increased duration, versatility of forms and a good healing. They could choose twice the same form. They could use +1 Tier 1 items and effect to get more shifts, and Brilliant/Potion of Enlightenment of course. So they would be fine.

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Thinking about it more I would actually prefer to see FotFB getting implemented like I would like Spiritshift to be implemented: as a proper modal. This would add consistency and make FotFB more attractive, too (to me at least). 

Good point. FotFB could get a little rework once a solution has been found for Spiritshift.

 

So basically I consider Tier 1 cast and Cooldoown both acceptable (minor adjustments could be needed). But now I will have to check if this can be implemented.

[Elric Galad]

Gotcha, the tool to make Cooldown :

 

{

        "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp",

        "DebugName": "Blinded_SE_DisableGazeAbilities",

        "ID": "1dbeff21-d432-477a-a946-86a3127bf262",

        "Components": [{

            "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp",

            "StatusEffectType": "DisableKeywordAbilities",

[dgray62]

I like the idea of making Spiritshift a lvl 1 spell. I guess it would be a "free" spell for all subclasses, right? With this in mind, maybe it would be a good idea to give lifegivers a fixed +2 PL bonus for rejuvenation spells, and remove the bonus and penalty connected with spiritshifting? However, one last thought: if we make it a spell, wizards will be able to steal it. What would be the implications of that?

[Testlum]

Speaking of cooldown systems, another complication would be the per-use active abilities for the Spiritshift. Instead of adding cooldowns to those as well, I wonder whether adding a cast/recovery time to enter and leave Spiritshift would be enough to prevent the druid from spamming them.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Testlum

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, dgray62 said:

I like the idea of making Spiritshift a lvl 1 spell. I guess it would be a "free" spell for all subclasses, right?

Right, additional one(s) at lvl 1. My main concerns about this solution are that these might not be cancellable and to a lesser extent that it will require an ability tree display change, and these ones are super tedious to do with Gamedata files.

That's why for now, Cooldown seems better.

But I think this would be a good choice too.

8 hours ago, dgray62 said:

With this in mind, maybe it would be a good idea to give lifegivers a fixed +2 PL bonus for rejuvenation spells, and remove the bonus and penalty connected with spiritshifting?

I'll think about Livegiver later. I'll prefer to keep traits from the original design, but they might require a rework indeed.

8 hours ago, dgray62 said:

However, one last thought: if we make it a spell, wizards will be able to steal it. What would be the implications of that?

BPM doesn't address the Grimoire Imprint bug in general. There's too many broken things with it to do anyway, one more won't change drastically.

4 hours ago, Testlum said:

Speaking of cooldown systems, another complication would be the per-use active abilities for the Spiritshift. Instead of adding cooldowns to those as well, I wonder whether adding a cast/recovery time to enter and leave Spiritshift would be enough to prevent the druid from spamming them.

I have to check if their per encounter charge are reset when shifting again. These abilities seem granted on Shift, in this case their count might be reset anyway.

Casting/recovery time aren't possible to add easily on a Modal. And Modal is required so the Shifts are cancellable.

Now it's time for experimentating ! 

 

@Boeroer can we say we are trying to actually implement SPIRITCAPSLOCK  ?

[Boeroer]

10 hours ago, dgray62 said:

With this in mind, maybe it would be a good idea to give lifegivers a fixed +2 PL bonus for rejuvenation spells, and remove the bonus and penalty connected with spiritshifting?

You mean on top of the passive +2 PL for Rejuvenation spells they already get? 

[dgray62]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

You mean on top of the passive +2 PL for Rejuvenation spells they already get? 

Yes. Lifegivers could keep their +2 PL, but it would be fixed. That is, one might drop the bonus while shifted, as well as the post-shift malus. I don't think that the bonus and malus make sense if spirit shift is treated as a lvl 1 spell.

[Boeroer]

I don't understand.

Current situation is:

• Lifegivers get a passive +2 PL to Rejuvenation.
• When they shift, they get +5 PL to Rejuvenation on top (-> +7 PL in total).
• When the spiritshift ends, they suffer -5 PL (-> -3 PL in total).

Or is that not correct?

Edited January 13, 2022 by Boeroer

[dgray62]

What I am suggesting is, if spirit shift was made into a PL 1 spell, that Lifegivers get a flat +2 PL rejuvenation bonus. The additional +5 while shifted, and the -5 PL after spirit shift ends, doesn't seem to make sense if Lifegivers get 2+ spiritshifts. But this is just a suggestion. I guess that the +5/-5 could be implemented, but lacking any modding experience I defer to those among us with this experience.

Edit: I see that I was unclear. No, I did not mean to suggest that they receive an additional +2 PL bonus on top of the +2 they already receive. I just meant that they should keep their original +2 bonus, and that the additional +5/-5 bonus and malus connected with spiritshifting be dropped.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by dgray62

[Constentin Lévine]

If I would change something about spiritshift, personally I'll just make some adustements :

Switching the On-kill duration extention from the fury subclass and the healing from the shifter subclass, since the fury have not acces to healing spell, like a backup solution, and the shifter want to stay shifted.

The shifter malus is really strong, an alternative like "Cannot cast spells while in kith form." make maybe more sens, since shifter can take another form when the first is over. 

This solution seems to me elegante, and keeping the actual False-modal is in accordance to the Extendable duration and Lifegiver mechanics. 

What do you think about that?

[Elric Galad]

Ok, so about the experimentations :

Trying implementing a cooldown using the DisableKeywordAbility was a fiasco. I tried implementing a Cooldown to Holy Radiance (because it seems a good candidate) and it disabled all abilities for the Cooldown duration. I used the Keyword to filter the disable, but it didn't work.

 

Implementing Spiritshift as a druid Tier 1 spell WHILE KEEPING IT A MODAL was an unexpected technical sucess.

The interface isn't perfect : the modal still display as a modal (not a Tier 1 spell) but clicking on it use a spell charge. I could use Spirit**** several time in a row. When 0 spell cast available on Tier 1, the modal icon was displayed as depleted.

Furthermore, re-casting Spiritshift restores the charges of the Per Encounter abilities. Which may be strong, especially for Fury.

So, there is a lot to consider if I go this way.

But the fact it works while changing only a couple of lines of code makes me biased in favor of it.

[Testlum]

Quote

Trying implementing a cooldown using the DisableKeywordAbility was a fiasco. I tried implementing a Cooldown to Holy Radiance (because it seems a good candidate) and it disabled all abilities for the Cooldown duration. I used the Keyword to filter the disable, but it didn't work.

I would try another implementation method. Instead of keywords, you could try editing the ActivationPrerequisites of each Spiritshift ability to be disabled while the character has X StatusEffect, where X StatusEffect is applied after Spiritshift runs out and has the fixed cooldown duration.

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Testlum said:

I would try another implementation method. Instead of keywords, you could try editing the ActivationPrerequisites of each Spiritshift ability to be disabled while the character has X StatusEffect, where X StatusEffect is applied after Spiritshift runs out and has the fixed cooldown duration.

Good idea. That's how Shadowed Hunters check if the pet is alive.

[Elric Galad]

23 hours ago, Testlum said:

I would try another implementation method. Instead of keywords, you could try editing the ActivationPrerequisites of each Spiritshift ability to be disabled while the character has X StatusEffect, where X StatusEffect is applied after Spiritshift runs out and has the fixed cooldown duration.

It worked like a charm !

I have successfully implemented Holy Radiance virtually infinite* number of casts with a fixed 90s cooldown (which is a change I will keep for next BPM version).
* means 999 per encounter. Infinite number didn't work.

While speaking about Priest signature abilities, I'm planning to adjust BPM Accuracy bonus for (non-Woedica) Spiritual Weapon from +10 to +15. With this change, all god weapon should be around the same level of power as Woedica's !

 

 

Coming back to druid : the Spiritshift Cooldown approach has my favor because it doesn't rely on Brilliant to be repeatable. Also it doesn't ruin the whole druid Tier 1 spell list by making these slots too precious to be spent for something else than Spiritshift.

So currently, my plans :

 

General principle : Spiritshift would have a fixed 90s Cooldown after casting (not after it ends). With a base duration of 15s (with BPM, it is affected by both PL and INT), a druid can hope to stay about 1/6 to 1/3 total time shifted. Support spells (such as SoT), Fury bonus on Kills and Wildtsrike Frenzy would provide a better ratio. 

Note : New casts of Spiritshift provide new use of Per Encounter abilties. This is quite cool.
 

Shifter : Shifter does have longer Spiritshift (base 22s), heal on end and access to a variety of forms that other druids don't have. But they can't cast spell while shifted.
Shifters won't have anymore the unique advantage of 5 Spiritshift per encounter without delay. I thought the class had too much of an advantage without real drawback. Nevertheless, their Cooldown will be only fixed 60s.
With enough INT and PL, they will be able to stay shifted most of the time... (3/8 to 3/4)... provided they don't cancel their shift to cast spell ! So shifting to Cat, casting Cat Flurry and cancelling just to heal and get the speed bonus will be limited.


Lifegiver : I do believe that the +2 Rejuvination PL and impossibility to use Summons compensate each other. But I still want to keep the interaction between Rejuvination PL and Shifting. So :
+ 2 PL before shifting
+ 2+5 PL while shifting
+ 2-5 PL after a shift. The malus is removed by a new shift, basically the same as a drug crash.
So you can either never shift or you'll have to cycle Shifting to get Rejuvination bonus. You won't be likely to be shifted most of the time BUT you can wait for a new shift to cast your next big healing spell, so I believe this is balanced.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

10 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

* means 999 per encounter. Infinite number didn't work.

Does the ability icon have a 999 counter then?

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Does the ability icon have a 999 counter then?

Yes.

I can't say I'm proud but I do with the tools I have

[Boeroer]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Yes.

I can't say I'm proud but I do with the tools I have

Some abilities of certain summons etc. have unlimited uses and show the infinity-symbol "∞" in the counter. So I guess there must be a way to achieve this? Maybe there's a certain non-numeric value you must fill in instead of a number. Could be worthwhile to see how it's done with those summons' abilities maybe? Chanter's Wisps for example have unlimited uses of their Dazzling Lights (ID: 237d1c53-7aae-48a6-a10c-4caa68e3d2e1) ability.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

21 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Some abilities of certain summons etc. have unlimited uses and show the infinity-symbol "∞" in the counter. So I guess there must be a way to achieve this? Maybe there's a certain non-numeric value you must fill in instead of a number. Could be worthwhile to see how it's done with those summons' abilities maybe? Chanter's Wisps for example have unlimited uses of their Dazzling Lights (ID: 237d1c53-7aae-48a6-a10c-4caa68e3d2e1) ability.

I know.

I copied them.

It failed 

 

999 X 90s in a single encounter (not counting pause) is a good enough approximation of infinity.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Hm, Holy Radiance has
UsageType: Per Encounter
UsageValue: 1

Wisps' Dazzling Lights has
UsageType: None
UsageValue: 0

So... giving "UsageType: None" and "UsageValue: 0" to Holy Radiance doesn't work?

Edit: tried it - it just removes Holy Radiance from the bar.
 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Boeroer said:

Hm, Holy Radiance has
UsageType: Per Encounter
UsageValue: 1

Wisps' Dazzling Lights has
UsageType: None
UsageValue: 0

So... giving "UsageType: None" and "UsageValue: 0" to Holy Radiance doesn't work?
 

No. That's exactly what I did.

I heavily suspect Interface menue per character to be class dependant.

Infinite use abilities have no room within priest grid.

[Boeroer]

Hm... yeah, it just got removed. I'm now looking how abilities from items (e.g. Fireball from Necklace) is done. But maybe it's truly so that infinity has no place in that normal, class-independent ability bar, no idea...

 

Edit: it seems only Charged, PerEncounter and PerRest UsageTypes can be added to the outer ability bar. Everything else wants to go into a separate sub-bar that's dedicated for the type of resource (wounds, spells etc.). Too bad "None" doesn't work. It would be the only one that makes sense with unlimited uses.

999 looks a bit wild imo.  If there's a 90 sec cooldown... don't you think a smaller numer would suffice? Like 9 or so? That's at least 12 minutes of combat - and looks okay.      

Edited January 15, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Hm... yeah, it just got removed. I'm now looking how abilities from items (e.g. Fireball from Necklace) is done. But maybe it's truly so that infinity has no place in that normal, class-independent ability bar, no idea...

 

Edit: it seems only Charged, PerEncounter and PerRest UsageTypes can be added to the outer ability bar. Everything else wants to go into a separate sub-bar that's dedicated for the type of resource (wounds, spells etc.). Too bad "None" doesn't work. It would be the only one that makes sense with unlimited uses.

999 looks a bit wild imo.  If there's a 90 sec cooldown... don't you think a smaller numer would suffice? Like 9 or so? That's at least 12 minutes of combat - and looks okay.      

I don't want to evaluate more precisely how much time at maximum a Megaboss encounter may take. At least a couple of hour, so 99 or so just to be sure. 999 doesn't look much wilder anyway. And I don't want to add a constraint with this ability.

Fun fact : BPM "take the hit" works as Infinite cast because it costs "0 discipline". I guess it doesn't work with casters.

Funnier fact : Spiritshift, as modals, can be actually Infinite cast.

[Boeroer]

30 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I don't want to evaluate more precisely how much time at maximum a Megaboss encounter may take. At least a couple of hour, so 99 or so just to be sure. 999 doesn't look much wilder anyway. And I don't want to add a constraint with this ability.

Fun fact : BPM "take the hit" works as Infinite cast because it costs "0 discipline". I guess it doesn't work with casters.

Funnier fact : Spiritshift, as modals, can be actually Infinite cast.

Yes, I think you could give Priests a resource pool like discipline with 0 points and then make HolyRadiance use 0 discipline. But I guess then it would get put behind a "fighter abilities icon" onto that seperate ability bar? Quite hacky.  

I also tried to make the number quite big (smaller thn INT32 though) so that the game would maybe give up displaying it and either display nothing or something else than a number - but that only crashed it. 

Interesting stuff with the Spiritshift...

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Spiritshift goes into the "modal" area of the ability bar - and that area seems to accept "None" and 0 as values. Also modals have no counter but just that green light as indicator that it's on (or off). 

Hey wait, next idea: what about spells that are stolen with Imprint spells. They have kind of what you need: They go on a separate place in the action bar (besides the spells but not into the per-encounter bar), and they can be used without limit (although they display a "1" at the bottom)? 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

34 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Spiritshift goes into the "modal" area of the ability bar - and that area seems to accept "None" and 0 as values. Also modals have no counter but just that green light as indicator that it's on (or off). 

Hey wait, next idea: what about spells that are stolen with Imprint spells. They have kind of what you need: They go on a separate place in the action bar (besides the spells but not into the per-encounter bar), and they can be used without limit (although they display a "1" at the bottom)? 

Imprint is hard coded. Only the attack that steal the spell exists in the gamedata files. Where the new spell goes is a mistery. I guess it does not increment the gamedata files in-game...