Should druid spells be buffed? Druid themed fun.

[coralzombie]

Regarding a mod in progress which creates a few items for theme based builds that alter power levels of certain keywords, example: Elemental, Ground.   Want to give more flexibility to player without breaking game experience on veteran - potd.  List of Druid Abilities for Reference: https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Druid+Abilities

[Boeroer]

Instead of buffing spells directly I would rather like to see trinkets for Druids and Priests which buff and grant certain type of spells while they penalize others. The last part is optional. Wizards have trinkets (grimoires), Druids and Priests have not. Introducing trinkets for both would solve a lot without even touching the base values of the game.

[coralzombie]

42 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Instead of buffing spells directly I would rather like to see trinkets for Druids and Priests which buff and grant certain type of spells while they penalize others. The last part is optional. Wizards have trinkets (grimoires), Druids and Priests have not. Introducing trinkets for both would solve a lot without even touching the base values of the game.

This is what I am doing... Creating trinkets, etc that buff certain types of spells. The spells are tied to certain keywords and the items will modify abilities based on the keyword associated with it.

Edited April 15, 2020 by coralzombie

[thelee]

i don't agree with any of the poll options, but i second boeroer's opinions. i think a lot more interesting stuff could have been done with keywords and aren't. it's a shame decay has hardly any keyword interaction. (similar thing for priest keyword like "cleansing")

[coralzombie]

Well these are just items that I am creating, not modifying base game files so it is up to the player if they wear them or not.  Not every item will affect a keyword or a power level so plenty of variety. That being said I guess it would be appropriate to attempt some balance, so where an item geared for Druids increases the PL of all ground based spells, it should decrease PL of all electricity spells etc,

 

There is a mod that adds more keywords but I have not looked it over, I could and maybe come up with some items that make use of them. Will see what I  can do.

Edited April 17, 2020 by coralzombie

[Elric Galad]

Given that I'm working on a Mod myself, I will point the list of spells that need buffs :

- Entropy (3 Hit to Crit proc on a Single Creature is bad for a Tier VIII)
- Wicked Briars
- Wall of Thorns
- Most summons except Call of the Primodials (slightly too strong, would nerf), Lashing Vine (pretty much Okay with its level 20 14 PEN) and Watershapers special ones. Blights scale poorly (weapons and armor don't scale), and Fire Stag and Aspect of Galawain are simply too weak. I'm working on it at the moment.
- Nature's Bounty but more because it's cumbersome to use. I would probably tweak it into a weaker direct effect.

I would also buff Sunlance a bit (add an Interrupt effect) but that's because Druids lack a well-rounded spell for Tier VI.

All other spells are more or less okay for me.

I agree with the Trinket idea, but they should be less powerful than wizard's in my opinion (only 1 spell per Tier, since Druids get 1 for free and Flexibility is the core identity of Wizards).

[Boeroer]

Entropy: It's 100% hit to crit which is cool and abusable - but 3 hits on a single trget in combination with the rather long casting and recovery time make it meh. I agree it's too weak for a PL8 spell which means you can't even achieve some sort of self-contained multiclass synergy with it (e.g. with Skald or with Swift Flurry, Stunning Surge etc). 

Wicked Briars? It's strong if you ask me. It's basically a piercing Chillfog with hobbling instead of blinding. About the same base damage (considering PL scaling) but more PEN (also considerung PL scaling) and it lasts longer. The Hobbled effect is weaker than Chillfog's Blind - but honestly I think that Chillfog is too good anyways. Can gain +3 PLs from Spine of Thicket Green, +4 if you're an Ancient. I also "stacks" with spells like Plague of Insects + Insect Swarm + Infestation of Maggots + Venombloom and it also works well with Combusting Wounds.

Wall of Thorns: better than Wall of Flame imo? 

Blights and Aspect of Galawain: true. Especially Aspect of Galawain is ridiculously bad compared to some other summons.
Fire Stag: you can abuse it with Darring Death's Door (or Lay on Hands of Shieldbearer), giving it unlimited uses of its pretty potent self-destruct. Maybe there is a solution to that where one could buff it while taking away that cheese.

Nature's Bounty: potential party-wide buff of +2 MIG, +2 PER and +20% action speed for 30 secs (Alchemy works) - multiple times if multiple quick slots - is very good. But you are right that it's weird. I actually never use it because I simply don't like and use consumables. Maybe just giving every party member in the AoE the buff directly (but longer) would have been better. Bypassing that additional hassle of having to drink a potion.

Sun Lance has dual damage which is quite unique. A tad more damage would be cool or more PEN (I mean it's a "lance"). Its range of 20 meter is rather ridiculous. Last time I checked it worked with Instruments of Pain, giving it an absurd range of 120 meters.  So  I suspect it's somehow tagged as melee which might lead to some obcure synergy effects. Maybe one could hint that in the tooltip or so if one doesn't want to remove that weirdness. 

While I'm against blanket buffs for druid spells I have other "problems" with certain ones:
 

• Taste of the Hunt: should be allowed for Shifters while shifted. It's a weapon-attack and not a classical spell. It also fits thematically with Shifter. No idea if that's possible but I guess you just have to remove the "spell" tagging.
•  Wildstrike Frenzy: not enough reason to go single class when using Spiritshift. Would add higher lash or additive passive dmg bonus to be able to compete with multiclass synergies. 
• Nature's Terror: the effect is cool, but the overall effect is weaker than Relentless Storm (mainly due to the rel. small AoE) - it is a tool for melee druids. Still it has the same casting time and recovery. If I had to choose if I cast a big Relentless Storm that stuns (even though it doesn't last as long) or a small Nature's Terror with frighten effect (which both take the same time to cast) I personally would always pick the Storm. It needs to be cast faster (have shorter recovery) to be a real competition to Relentless Storm.
• Touch of Death: the idea is nice but very narrow use case for PL 9. I would add raw damage if the target is not near death. Basically like Abjuration (if enemy has higher level: gets raw damage, else: destroyed). Would be ok for me if the raw damage is high enough to outright kill weaker enemies that are not near death. It's PL9 single target spell. It should be good to justify to give up Maelstrom which is effing ridiculous (-ly good) compared to Finger of Death. That way you could kill weaker targets that are not near death while it's still a great spell against bosses. I personally would also make it melee range (0.8 meters) and not 1.5. It's a "touch" spell for me, not a really long finger.  I would also reduce casting time to instant like a fist attack. I would also add the auto-hit-feature like for Minor Missiles or Thurst of Tattered Veils. It's really hard to miss when simply trying to touch an enemy. Maybe somebody now says that's too strong, but you have to go into melee against a boss a single class Druid and you already whittled him down to near death. You could have cast a Maelstrom instead which is more useful in 90% of cases anyway. 
• Tornado: compared to Maelstrom this is way too weak. Why ever take it? It needs something additional, something more unique that fits the Tornado theme that sets it apart from Maelstrom which is simply about dealing (massive) damage. Knock Up is not enough. Maybe pulling the enemies tightly together lilke Pull of Eora or something - or throwing them all over the place like an AoE-Force-of-Anguish or a Clean Sweep. Messing up their movements patterns pretty nicely. And shorter casting time! 6 seconds is ok for Maelstrom given the huge effects, but Tornado: should be faster. 

Sounds like power creep, but I think (SC) Druids deserve it. 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

16 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Entropy: It's 100% hit to crit which is cool and abusable - but 3 hits on a single trget in combination with the rather long casting and recovery time make it meh. I agree it's too weak for a PL8 spell which means you can't even achieve some sort of self-contained multiclass synergy with it (e.g. with Skald or with Swift Flurry, Stunning Surge etc). 

My idea was to make it 2.5m radius, rise to 5 the number of procs (and remove the Interrupt part ). AoE would help diffentiating it with Rust Armor when trying to Bypass AR.

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Wicked Briars? It's strong if you ask me. It's basically a piercing Chillfog with hobbling instead of blinding. About the same base damage (considering PL scaling) but more PEN (also considerung PL scaling) and it lasts longer. The Hobbled effect is weaker than Chillfog's Blind - but honestly I think that Chillfog is too good anyways. Can gain +3 PLs from Spine of Thicket Green, +4 if you're an Ancient. I also "stacks" with spells like Plague of Insects + Insect Swarm + Infestation of Maggots + Venombloom and it also works well with Combusting Wounds.

Wall of Thorns: better than Wall of Flame imo? 

Major problem with these 2 spells is that they are on Tier IV - V which happen to be incredibly good for Druids.
So if you put on these levels a Chillfog-like spell... err no. EDIT : revised my judgement a bit. It's the most damaging spell of its Tier, so I guess it's OK.
Wall of Thorns has to compet with Relentless Storm and does not even do as much damages as Fire Wall (okay it has an affliction effect...).
EDIT : I also don't like Poison Keyworded spells in general, and Druid has a bit too much CON affliction based on Poisons for my tastes. It feels overall a bit redundant with Venombloom, less convenient and less powerful.

I'm not sure what to do with these 2 spells (that I thematically like)

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Blights and Aspect of Galawain: true. Especially Aspect of Galawain is ridiculously bad compared to some other summons.

Weapon/armor scaling is good enough for blight. They have nice Activable abilities. Also consider I will nerf Call of the Primordial to 2 Oozes after adding a bit of weapon scaling. This spell is too good and you can have only 1 Summon spell active so it makes all the other pale in comparison.

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Fire Stag: you can abuse it with Darring Death's Door (or Lay on Hands of Shieldbearer), giving it unlimited uses of its pretty potent self-destruct. Maybe there is a solution to that where one could buff it while taking away that cheese.

I was considering this indeed.

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Nature's Bounty: potential party-wide buff of +2 MIG, +2 PER and +20% action speed for 30 secs (Alchemy works) - multiple times if multiple quick slots - is very good. But you are right that it's weird. I actually never use it because I simply don't like and use consumables. Maybe just giving every party member in the AoE the buff directly (but longer) would have been better. Bypassing that additional hassle of having to drink a potion.

Honnestly, 30s +20% Action speed and a bit of healing if good enough in my opinion. That's the only Party Wide pure action speed buff (bar indirect one from Chanter). I was even considering removing MIG and PER buff but I can let them for what it worths.

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Sun Lance has dual damage which is quite unique. A tad more damage would be cool or more PEN (I mean it's a "lance"). Its range of 20 meter is rather ridiculous. Last time I checked it worked with Instruments of Pain, giving it an absurd range of 120 meters.  So  I suspect it's somehow tagged as melee which might lead to some obcure synergy effects. Maybe one could hint that in the tooltip or so if one doesn't want to remove that weirdness. 

Not sure about removing weirdness. I don't mind it personnally and since it's not the only ability with this effect (Lay on Hand...), it will require the same treatment for the others.
I was leaning to adding Interrupt on Hit and decreasin casting time to 0.5s and 4.5s recovery. This would be a way to promote the big range. 

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While I'm against blanket buffs for druid spells I have other "problems" with certain ones:

• Taste of the Hunt: should be allowed for Shifters while shifted. It's a weapon-attack and not a classical spell. It also fits thematically with Shifter. No idea if that's possible but I guess you just have to remove the "spell" tagging.

Spell isn't a keyword. Maybe by making it into a per encounter ability ? It would be a bit weird, but why not ?

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•  Wildstrike Frenzy: not enough reason to go single class when using Spiritshift. Would add higher lash or additive passive dmg bonus to be able to compete with multiclass synergies. 

Agreed, I only spoke about spell but I had this in mind too. My idea was to change the effect to a On Crit proc. So it synergizes with the new Entropy.

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• Nature's Terror: the effect is cool, but the overall effect is weaker than Relentless Storm (mainly due to the rel. small AoE) - it is a tool for melee druids. Still it has the same casting time and recovery. If I had to choose if I cast a big Relentless Storm that stuns (even though it doesn't last as long) or a small Nature's Terror with frighten effect (which both take the same time to cast) I personally would always pick the Storm. It needs to be cast faster (have shorter recovery) to be a real competition to Relentless Storm.

It does slightly more damage per tick, last twice as long and proc twice more often. But I would tend to agree that a spell designed for melee could be better with shorter casting time. So maybe a slight buff to 3s/3s casting/recovery ?

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• Touch of Death: the idea is nice but very narrow use case for PL 9.

Was on my radar too.

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• I would add raw damage if the target is not near death. Basically like Abjuration (if enemy has higher level: gets raw damage, else: destroyed). Would be ok for me if the raw damage is high enough to outright kill weaker enemies that are not near death. It's PL9 single target spell. It should be good to justify to give up Maelstrom which is effing ridiculous (-ly good) compared to Finger of Death. That way you could kill weaker targets that are not near death while it's still a great spell against bosses. I personally would also make it melee range (0.8 meters) and not 1.5. It's a "touch" spell for me, not a really long finger.  I would also reduce casting time to instant like a fist attack.

Reducing casting time to about instant is an option I considered too.

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• I would also add the auto-hit-feature like for Minor Missiles or Thurst of Tattered Veils. It's really hard to miss when simply trying to touch an enemy. Maybe somebody now says that's too strong, but you have to go into melee against a boss a single class Druid and you already whittled him down to near death. You could have cast a Maelstrom instead which is more useful in 90% of cases anyway. 

If last 10% is to finish a Boss, it worths it. You don't strictly have to choose. I don't like auto-hit but an Accuracy bonus such as Thunder Rolls upgrade could be nice. Does this kind of effect apply on Graze ? 

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• Tornado: compared to Maelstrom this is way too weak. Why ever take it? It needs something additional, something more unique that fits the Tornado theme that sets it apart from Maelstrom which is simply about dealing (massive) damage. Knock Up is not enough. Maybe pulling the enemies tightly together lilke Pull of Eora or something - or throwing them all over the place like an AoE-Force-of-Anguish or a Clean Sweep. Messing up their movements patterns pretty nicely. And shorter casting time! 6 seconds is ok for Maelstrom given the huge effects, but Tornado: should be faster. 

Agree too. I will try to think about something. Pull of Eora doesn't sound too tornado, but "Vertical Launch" status has parameters. So maybe there is a way to increase the time spent in the air to something fun. Other option I can think is to give it a crazier AoE such as 7.5m or even 10m.

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Sounds like power creep, but I think (SC) Druids deserve it. 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

My idea was to make it 2.5m radius, rise to 5 the number of procs (and remove the Interrupt part ). AoE would help diffentiating it with Rust Armor when trying to Bypass AR.

i would be fine without making it an AoE and just increasing the hit to crit count to like 10.

part of the lameness is that attacks that crit for other reasons or attacks that can't get upgraded (because they graze) still appear to eat up the hit-to-crit count of entropy.

Edited April 19, 2020 by thelee

[uuuhhii]

pen and ar limit most class

but druid really need that fury +1 pen

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, thelee said:

 

i would be fine without making it an AoE and just increasing the hit to crit count to like 10.

Well, I guess there are several option. The reason I want it to become an AoE is to make it different from Rust Armor. Of course, AoE vs Single Target would lead to different numbers of procs for balance purpose.

11 hours ago, thelee said:

part of the lameness is that attacks that crit for other reasons or attacks that can't get upgraded (because they graze) still appear to eat up the hit-to-crit count of entropy.

Oh, thanks for pointing this.

[Elric Galad]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 5:17 PM, Boeroer said:

Wicked Briars? It's strong if you ask me. It's basically a piercing Chillfog with hobbling instead of blinding. About the same base damage (considering PL scaling) but more PEN (also considerung PL scaling) and it lasts longer. The Hobbled effect is weaker than Chillfog's Blind - but honestly I think that Chillfog is too good anyways. Can gain +3 PLs from Spine of Thicket Green, +4 if you're an Ancient. I also "stacks" with spells like Plague of Insects + Insect Swarm + Infestation of Maggots + Venombloom and it also works well with Combusting Wounds.

You're right, after thinking twice it's OK.

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Wall of Thorns: better than Wall of Flame imo? 

Well, I think that my main problem is that it feels quite redundant with Venombloss, albeit less convenient. And it is on a Crowded Tier.
And Poison effects are a bit situational considering how many foes are immune to it.

Currently, I'm thinking about simply replacing Weakened by Immobilized (for 2s) and removing all references to Poison.

The best thing is that it would feel like... you know... a Wall.
This would give the spell a quite unique effect. There are many fights where foes keep coming, and this would allow to stop or slow the flood when foes get caught in the wall. I can see mylself casting it instead of Relentless Storm.

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 9:34 PM, thelee said:

part of the lameness is that attacks that crit for other reasons or attacks that can't get upgraded (because they graze) still appear to eat up the hit-to-crit count of entropy.

Giving Entropy a Duration instead could solve this weirdness. What would you guys think about it ?

EDIT : But I haven't check if the glitch can simply be corrected.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Generally I agree that some good spells are competing with each other on certain power levels while other power levels are a bit meh. But on the other hand: we would complain if every PL had a single "best" spell, too (because that would make the pick almost mandatory). 

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Generally I agree that some good spells are competing with each other on certain power levels while other power levels are a bit meh. But on the other hand: we would complain if every PL had a single "best" spell, too (because that would make the pick almost mandatory). 

You're right. The problem is mainly about discrepancies within a Tier. 

Druid Tier IX has heavy discrepancies between the Good, the Situational and the Bad (granted the difference between Bad and Extremely Situationnal can be thin, such as with Touch of Death).
Druid Tier IX is basically a choice between Greater Maelstorm and Pollen Patch as you pointed (since you suggested buffing all 3 others !).

However, when a spell is unique enough, it will still have some uses.

That's a Single Player Game after all.
A character doesn't have to feel the strongest, just the best at something.
Being able to stop a wave of zombies with a Wall of Thorn is priceless, even if good old Relentless Storm or Embrace of the Earth Talon can be considered as overall better.

That's why it is not only a problem of raw power, but also uniqueness. 

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Giving Entropy a Duration instead could solve this weirdness. What would you guys think about it ?

it might also be helpful to make it a universal upgrade, e.g. 100% miss->graze, 100% graze->hit, 100% hit->crit. That way it helps every attack roll in some way (except for ones that are already critting).

duration would work, but there's something "nice" about the fixed number of hits. it seems like at such a low count (3) it was meant to be kind of a combo enabler, and having a luxury of time to set it up will work. it's just that right now it's so finicky to be worth the effort and even with the effort, there aren't many setups to make only 3 hit->crits that powerful to be a single-class-only spell (not to mention the extreme micromanagement you need so autoattacks don't eat it up).

[Elric Galad]

43 minutes ago, thelee said:

it might also be helpful to make it a universal upgrade, e.g. 100% miss->graze, 100% graze->hit, 100% hit->crit. That way it helps every attack roll in some way (except for ones that are already critting).

duration would work, but there's something "nice" about the fixed number of hits. it seems like at such a low count (3) it was meant to be kind of a combo enabler, and having a luxury of time to set it up will work. it's just that right now it's so finicky to be worth the effort and even with the effort, there aren't many setups to make only 3 hit->crits that powerful to be a single-class-only spell (not to mention the extreme micromanagement you need so autoattacks don't eat it up).

I would prefer the count too, and 100% graze to hit would work too.

But it's always good to have backup plans.

[Elric Galad]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 5:17 PM, Boeroer said:

• Touch of Death: the idea is nice but very narrow use case for PL 9. I would add raw damage if the target is not near death. Basically like Abjuration (if enemy has higher level: gets raw damage, else: destroyed). Would be ok for me if the raw damage is high enough to outright kill weaker enemies that are not near death. It's PL9 single target spell. It should be good to justify to give up Maelstrom which is effing ridiculous (-ly good) compared to Finger of Death. That way you could kill weaker targets that are not near death while it's still a great spell against bosses. I personally would also make it melee range (0.8 meters) and not 1.5. It's a "touch" spell for me, not a really long finger.  I would also reduce casting time to instant like a fist attack. I would also add the auto-hit-feature like for Minor Missiles or Thurst of Tattered Veils. It's really hard to miss when simply trying to touch an enemy. Maybe somebody now says that's too strong, but you have to go into melee against a boss a single class Druid and you already whittled him down to near death. You could have cast a Maelstrom instead which is more useful in 90% of cases anyway.

What I'm probably going to do :

- Set casting time to 0,5s/3s instead of 3s/3s.
- Add a +25 Acc modifier for this spell. So if your accuracy is equal or greater than foe's Will, the kill is guaranteed (Club Modal for the win). Not guaranteed against the strongest foes, but still high chances to land.

Still situational, but very helpful in this critical case.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

That's a good idea I think.

[Elric Galad]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 5:17 PM, Boeroer said:

• Tornado: compared to Maelstrom this is way too weak. Why ever take it? It needs something additional, something more unique that fits the Tornado theme that sets it apart from Maelstrom which is simply about dealing (massive) damage. Knock Up is not enough. Maybe pulling the enemies tightly together lilke Pull of Eora or something - or throwing them all over the place like an AoE-Force-of-Anguish or a Clean Sweep. Messing up their movements patterns pretty nicely. And shorter casting time! 6 seconds is ok for Maelstrom given the huge effects, but Tornado: should be faster. 

So for this one, my proposal would be :
- AoE set to 10m radius. I really wanted something a bit silly because it is a freakin Tier IX spell. I would also allow to avoid any friendly target quite easily. Thematically, it would fit the destructive nature of druids.
- Range set to 20m (a bit necessary because of the increased AoE)
- Add a 6s Stun. Far from OP but probably quite nice with the stupid AoE.
- Casting Time tuned from 6s/2s to 4.5s/3s Not much change but slightly more convenient for an alpha move.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

On 4/28/2020 at 9:53 PM, Elric Galad said:

So for this one, my proposal would be :
- AoE set to 10m radius. I really wanted something a bit silly because it is a freakin Tier IX spell. I would also allow to avoid any friendly target quite easily. Thematically, it would fit the destructive nature of druids.
- Range set to 20m (a bit necessary because of the increased AoE)
- Add a 6s Stun. Far from OP but probably quite nice with the stupid AoE.
- Casting Time tuned from 6s/2s to 4.5s/3s Not much change but slightly more convenient for an alpha move.

Finally removed the Stun and simply added an Interrupt on Graze which is consitent with Vertical Launch mechanics. It's still a 3.5s Hard CC which covers the whole screen. I guess it is not as good as Maelstorm, but at least this version has situationnal use. Probably fun for Ship battles, or as an Alpha move / pulling effect due to crazy range and AoE.

On 4/19/2020 at 5:17 PM, Boeroer said:

Wall of Thorns: better than Wall of Flame imo? 

 

Well, I've finally discovered that this spell has an incorrect display of 7 PEN while it is actually 9 PEN.
That makes quite a difference TBH.

I still don't like the redundancy of this spell with Venombloom (and Poison based effect, even if not displayed correcly) but it's hard to say it's a bad spell. I should avoid modding stuff just because I don't like abilities, so I'm not going to change it (except for the PEN display that I corrected on the way).

Edited May 3, 2020 by Elric Galad