What does Swift Flurry actually works with?

[srulz]

So from my limited testing, apparently Swift Flurry doesn't work at all with on-crit procs, either skills or weapons. Namely your Flurry triggers, but no procs trigger from your Flurries.

Now I'm trying to find a way to break Flurry. So as of my testing & information from others on board:

 

1. Citzal's Spirit Lance - Flurry works even on "splashed" targets, but whether they help trigger each other or not? Probably no.

 

2. Soul Annihilation - Flurry generates additional focus, so you can consecutively spam SA with high enough accuracy.

 

Anyway any help/testing that you guys have done would be much appreciated. Seeing that this is the last patch and there should be no more balance fixes after this, secrets are now safe to be divulged.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Boeroer]

Everything that is tagged as melee weapon attack will work. This excludes stuff like Forbidden Fist - that is a melee attack but it is not considered to be a melee weapon attack (doesn't generate focus either).

Whispers of the Endless Paths used to NOT trigger it with its AoE - but tehre have been some implementation changes so maybe it's worth another test. However, those additional attacks are never AoE attacks likethe original one. Just the individual attack rolls on that target get repeated.

Best way to trigger Swift Flurry (and Heartbeat Drumming) ist to stack ACC and crit conversion like there is no tomorrow. 

For example early game: One Handed Rapier (later Rännig's Wrath) with modal on (--> +20+12+4+5 = +41 ACC, +15% hit-to-crit conversion). Also nice combo as Monk/Soulblade to make sure your Soul Ahnihilation does (almost) never miss.

Also increasing the number of hit rolls is a good way: Sun and Moon rolls twice per attack, Clear Out rolls against a lot of foes if you aim it well and so on. 

Another very good way is to use a Morning Star, Enervating Blows and multiclass with a Berserker (for Spirit Frenzy's stagger effect, Brute Force, Barbaric Blow and Blood Slaughter) - because you will lower enemies fortitude by 45 points with Body Blows modal (-25), weakened (-10) and staggered (-10). This is a virtual raise of you ACC by 45 points (against fortitude). Endunring Dance can give you up to +12 ACC. At the same time the Berserker has a lot of crit conversions (Frenzy, Barbaric Blow and Bloody Slaughter). One/two-shotting enemies with low fortitude is a common thing with this setup.    

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Boeroer

[srulz]

Thanks for the detailed answer! I really enjoy reading all your posts.

The thing about increasing attack rolls is, from my understanding they don't really boost your overall DPS output that much, since you are just repeating that same strike. So for example, if I use a 2H weapon vs dual wield vs Sun & Moon, the final additional output is on average the same, right? Of course I may be wrong here, since I'm not sure about the probabilities stacking and such.

That's a great idea though regarding Barbarian multi. Actually I'm thinking more of like you are having Serafen/Konstaten as the "Barbarian helper" in the group, while you yourself go dual wield Rapier/something else while enabling Rapier modal & purely using full attacks. The recovery malus doesn't affect you since only offhand recovery matter.

Does a Fortitude-targetting full attack exists though? If not, you are then "forced" to use Barbarian as well, which is not really to my liking since too many overlaps between Monk & Barbarian skillset. Should still be more than viable though, since Stunning Surge means you'll have infinite full attacks.

[Boeroer]

5 minutes ago, srulz said:

So for example, if I use a 2H weapon vs dual wield vs Sun & Moon, the final additional output is on average the same, right?

That is correct. You will only see it happen more often in a given time (because you do more attack rolls in that time), but the increase of dps (percentage wise) should be the same.

 

I think Berserker/Monk has great synergy since the Berserker Frenzy generates a ton of wounds while not breaking Enduring Dance. But as I said: something like Monk/Soulblade is also very nice. Shadowdancer also works well in general and also with Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming. You just have to use you mobility and focus on low defense targets like casters and so on. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Boeroer

[srulz]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I think Berserker/Monk has great synergy since the Berserker Frenzy generates a ton of wounds while not breaking Enduring Dance. But as I said: something like Monk/Soulblade is also very nice. Shadowdancer also works well in general and also with Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming. You just have to use you mobility and focus on low defense targets like casters and so on. 

The main issue I'm having with the Berserker/Monk multi is that I really love Helwalker, and I really hate Nelpazca's drug micro. Sure you can automate the drug taking, but I usually play with almost no resting, and having to continously deal with the withdrawal penalty especially for dialogue checks is just a huge pain. OTOH, I don't think Helwalker-boosted Frenzy damage is a brilliant idea.

Anyway, I was just searching through the old posts on how to build a Barb debuffer, and 99.99% of the great posts are by you, so thanks a lot! You are truly a treasure trove of information.

So the good news is I don't have to reroll my Devoted/Helwalker built around Amra, since Clear Out/Knockdown does target Fortitude, and so is the Skyward Kick as backup if Discipline ran out. The bad news is Voidwheel would be so much better since the Lance proc targets Fortitude as well, and the self-damage would help to generate Wounds without cancelling Dance, and Unbending would mean I'll be super-safe. Oh well, live and learn.

Now I just need to figure out who to replace to bring in the Howler Konstanten. Eder brings along an extra pet with +5 Accuracy with Persistent Distraction bonus, while Pallegina brings the Shared Flames + Focus aura + Fire chant. So it's either Xoti, the perma-Whispers machine, or Mirke, the DPS blender. Probably Mirke I guess, since I don't really like the Friendly Fire of the Powder Burns modal.

Edited June 24, 2019 by srulz

[Boeroer]

Helwalker/Berserker is doable but it surely is a very delicate combo.

[srulz]

BTW it is confirmed right that Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming additional strikes doesn't trigger Scordeo's Edge/Stalker's Patience instant recovery procs etc? Because the chances are so low, so I'm not sure if I got the testing wrong or something.

[Boeroer]

Didn't test that. Scordeo's Edge however is one of the best weapons for Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming nonetheless because of "Adaptive".

[Powerotti]

It triggers Adaptive for sure, so i think it should work with Blade Cascade also, since both effects require weapon attacks to proc.

With 35 int you have to wait for trigger only once, and after that it refreshes itself every few hits https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fdXtcam_5Y8q820HoRvjw1ISVY4V9W0m/view?usp=sharing

 

 

[srulz]

23 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

It triggers Adaptive for sure, so i think it should work with Blade Cascade also, since both effects require weapon attacks to proc.

With 35 int you have to wait for trigger only once, and after that it refreshes itself every few hits https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fdXtcam_5Y8q820HoRvjw1ISVY4V9W0m/view?usp=sharing

 

 

Hey thanks a lot for the detailed test! It's much appreciated. I have 2 additional questions, if you don't mind:

1. To trigger Blade Cascade, do I need to crit the enemy using Scordeo's Edge itself, or if I dual wield it, it can trigger via thr other weapons as well?

2. The thing about Blade Cascade is that it itself helps further procs due to no recovery. What about stuff like Voidwheel for example? I've tried Eager Blade and it seems to only trigger once even when I have multiple Swift Flurries. Same as Amra.

[Elric Galad]

Why not Berzeker / Forbidden Fist ? I presume Berzeker rage proc FF wound generation and Enfeebled would help proccing Crit through Brute Force.

[Powerotti]

1 hour ago, srulz said:

Hey thanks a lot for the detailed test! It's much appreciated. I have 2 additional questions, if you don't mind:

1. To trigger Blade Cascade, do I need to crit the enemy using Scordeo's Edge itself, or if I dual wield it, it can trigger via thr other weapons as well?

2. The thing about Blade Cascade is that it itself helps further procs due to no recovery. What about stuff like Voidwheel for example? I've tried Eager Blade and it seems to only trigger once even when I have multiple Swift Flurries. Same as Amra.

1. Only Scordeo's crits counts, so it's better not to use other weapon or shield in offhand. That way you can get bonus accuracy and hit-to-crit conversion of one handed style talent.

2. Vehemence effect on Eager Blade triggers multiple times with heartbeat and flurry. These skills are "mele" and "weapon" tagged, so every "on hit" or "on crit" weapon enchantment should trigger from them.

 

3 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Why not Berzeker / Forbidden Fist ? I presume Berzeker rage proc FF wound generation and Enfeebled would help proccing Crit through Brute Force.

You don't need Forbidden Fist to apply con affliction. Every monk class have Enervating Blows talent that weakens enemy on crit. Optimal woud be Shattered Pillar, but 5 wound limit makes it useless. Community Patch should remove that, but for some reason it doesn't work. Maybe next version.

Berzerker is fine, however I prefer devoted for better penetration and survivability. Unbending Trunk with 35 int is nice

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Why not Berzeker / Forbidden Fist ? I presume Berzeker rage proc FF wound generation and Enfeebled would help proccing Crit through Brute Force.

Unfortunately Forbidden Fist doesn't gain wounds from self damage. And Berserker Frenzy would only give you one wound once it expires.

Every other Monk besides Shattered Pillar and FF would get a ton of wounds from Berserker Frenzy. So in my opinion Berserker/FF or Shattered Pillar are inferior to other combos.

As Powerotti said: Enervating Blows works totally fine. Combine with Spirit Frenzy. 

My personal preference for a Berserker/Monk is (as I maybe already said) a Morning Star (Willbreaker most of the time).

Other weapons that proc effects that count as melee weapon attacks (and thus should proc Swift Flurry and HBD) and that come to my mind:

- Grave Calling's Chilling Grave (Chillfog). Every hit of the Chillfog counts as melee weapon damage.

- Engoliero do Espirs' Blade Feast (Ghostblades): same.

Both feels very cheesy though.

I wonder what happens if you proc SF/HBD with Concelhaut's Draining Touch.

 

[srulz]

20 hours ago, Powerotti said:

2. Vehemence effect on Eager Blade triggers multiple times with heartbeat and flurry. These skills are "mele" and "weapon" tagged, so every "on hit" or "on crit" weapon enchantment should trigger from them.

 

19 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Unfortunately Forbidden Fist doesn't gain wounds from self damage. And Berserker Frenzy would only give you one wound once it expires.

Every other Monk besides Shattered Pillar and FF would get a ton of wounds from Berserker Frenzy. So in my opinion Berserker/FF or Shattered Pillar are inferior to other combos.

As Powerotti said: Enervating Blows works totally fine. Combine with Spirit Frenzy. 

My personal preference for a Berserker/Monk is (as I maybe already said) a Morning Star (Willbreaker most of the time).

Other weapons that proc effects that count as melee weapon attacks (and thus should proc Swift Flurry and HBD) and that come to my mind:

- Grave Calling's Chilling Grave (Chillfog). Every hit of the Chillfog counts as melee weapon damage.

- Engoliero do Espirs' Blade Feast (Ghostblades): same.

So where exactly do I check with my trusty Notepad all these "melee"  and "weapon" tags?

[Boeroer]

There is no list. And the "tags" are mostly internal. You have to test.

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[Powerotti]

21 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Unfortunately Forbidden Fist doesn't gain wounds from self damage. And Berserker Frenzy would only give you one wound once it expires.

Every other Monk besides Shattered Pillar and FF would get a ton of wounds from Berserker Frenzy. So in my opinion Berserker/FF or Shattered Pillar are inferior to other combos.

As Powerotti said: Enervating Blows works totally fine. Combine with Spirit Frenzy. 

My personal preference for a Berserker/Monk is (as I maybe already said) a Morning Star (Willbreaker most of the time).

Other weapons that proc effects that count as melee weapon attacks (and thus should proc Swift Flurry and HBD) and that come to my mind:

- Grave Calling's Chilling Grave (Chillfog). Every hit of the Chillfog counts as melee weapon damage.

- Engoliero do Espirs' Blade Feast (Ghostblades): same.

Both feels very cheesy though.

I wonder what happens if you proc SF/HBD with Concelhaut's Draining Touch.

 

That's right. I focused on generating wounds by auto attacks, which should be superfast with scordeos no recovery, and forgot about berserkers self damage.

 

Drainig touch should apply only to initial hit, and flurry/hearthbeat will use weapon equiped before casting spell, i think. At last that's how it works with Forbidden fist ability after community patch. Is it ok to post builds using this mod? I have something interesting on my mind

[Boeroer]

I don't think that is how Draining Touch with Swift Flurry will work. It's a summoned weapon that usually disappears after a successful hit or crit (not graze). So I guess it either disappears after the Swift Flurry hit roll - or it doesn't (immediately) and will only disappear after the last hit roll.

 

 

[srulz]

10 hours ago, Boeroer said:

There is no list. And the "tags" are mostly internal. You have to test.

 

Wait, the Community Patch does change a few of these tags, as evidenced by the latest build guide. So when you can change a property, then that means that property must exist somewhere, right?

[Boeroer]

Yes. In the code. In this case in some JSON files. But that's not necessarily visible in the game.

Inthe game often enough an ability will tell you that it's a melee ability. Sometimes it even says it only works with weapons (like crit conversion of Berserker Frenzy or Steel Garrotte's draining). But in other cases like with Forbidden Fist or Soul Annihilation there is no info whether the ability itself is considered a melee weapon attack or just a melee attack. You can't see it. So either you test that stuff out or you take a look into the code.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Boeroer

[srulz]

On 6/27/2019 at 12:40 PM, Boeroer said:

Yes. In the code. In this case in some JSON files. But that's not necessarily visible in the game.

Inthe game often enough an ability will tell you that it's a melee ability. Sometimes it even says it only works with weapons (like crit conversion of Berserker Frenzy or Steel Garrotte's draining). But in other cases like with Forbidden Fist or Soul Annihilation there is no info whether the ability itself is considered a melee weapon attack or just a melee attack. You can't see it. So either you test that stuff out or you take a look into the code.

Got it, thanks.

Anyway, since I'm building a Shadowdancer now, does anyone know the actual mechanics on weapon switch? Namely how long the recovery time before you can attack, does the previous weapon plays a role in the recovery delau or not, because I've read somewhere that in POE1 the previous weapon does matter.

[Boeroer]

No, that would be completely new to me. The weapon switch itself adds a fixed amount of recovery. Iirc 2.5 seconds. This additional "switching recovery" is not influenced by the weapons you wear. It only changes with Quick Switch (-1.5 secs) and Black Jacket's passive (-1 sec). 

But of course: if you strike with a dagger and switch immediately then you have to wait for the dagger's recovery (3 sec) plus the switching time (2.5) until you can strike again. With a sword you would have to wait 4 + 2.5 secs.

You can't cancel the recovery times of weapons or spells with switching in Deadfire. You could do it in PoE1 - but not PoE2.

What you can cancel with it is reloading. You can fire a gun or crossbow and then switch to the next weapon set. The reload will be canceled (will be resumed later though should you switch back to that weapon). So it will not get added to the switching recovery. In most cases this is faster than reloading - even if you don't have Quick Switch etc.

But you can't cancel weapon/ability recovery. 

A Black Jacket with Quick Switch can switch with 0 additional recovery. That means he can fire up to 4 weapon sets of reloading weapons once without any recovery/reload. 

He can also switch recovery weapons all the time and it will not slow him down. It's no difference for him in speed if he switches or not. 

This is all meant for Real Time with Pause though, not Turn Based Mode.

[srulz]

13 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

No, that would be completely new to me. The weapon switch itself adds a fixed amount of recovery. Iirc 2.5 seconds. This additional "switching recovery" is not influenced by the weapons you wear. It only changes with Quick Switch (-1.5 secs) and Black Jacket's passive (-1 sec). 

But of course: if you strike with a dagger and switch immediately then you have to wait for the dagger's recovery (3 sec) plus the switching time (2.5) until you can strike again. With a sword you would have to wait 4 + 2.5 secs.

You can't cancel the recovery times of weapons or spells with switching in Deadfire. You could do it in PoE1 - but not PoE2.

What you can cancel with it is reloading. You can fire a gun or crossbow and then switch to the next weapon set. The reload will be canceled (will be resumed later though should you switch back to that weapon). So it will not get added to the switching recovery. In most cases this is faster than reloading - even if you don't have Quick Switch etc.

But you can't cancel weapon/ability recovery. 

A Black Jacket with Quick Switch can switch with 0 additional recovery. That means he can fire up to 4 weapon sets of reloading weapons once without any recovery/reload. 

He can also switch recovery weapons all the time and it will not slow him down. It's no difference for him in speed if he switches or not. 

This is all meant for Real Time with Pause though, not Turn Based Mode.

Nice, thanks! So to confirm, let's say my sequence is as follows:

1a. Dual wield Scepter (mainhand to get range)+ Blunderbuss (offhand for Powder Burns & reload instead of recovery) -> Full Attack -> Weapon Switch

-> Recovery before next attack = 2.5 sec

1b. Single wield Blunderbuss -> Full Attack -> Weapon Switch

-> Recovery before next attack = still 2.5 sec? Or slower due to previously single hand instead of previously dual wield?

2. Also, is this 2.5 sec recovery speed influenced by all the normal recovery/action speed bonuses?

3. Same as no.2, but Streetfighter bonus is enabled yet for the weapon switch recovery?

4. Also, other than Dexterity & Action Speed, what other factors affect the attack speed? The actual attack animation, not including recovery.

Edited June 28, 2019 by srulz

[Boeroer]

1a) correct, 2.5. Main hand's recovery gets omitted because of Full Attack and offhand's reload gets canceled by the switching.

1b) 2.5; the reload would be longer due to single handed -> but it gets cancelled anyway by switching. So only switching recovery remains.

2) no. Only Quick Switch and Black Jacket. I never tested Blade Cascade from Scordeo's Edge with switching though.

3) as above. Streetfighter bonus does not influence switching time of 2.5 secs.

4) nothing. Action Speed bonus is the same mechanic as Action Time reduction by the way. So if you read about both don't be confused. Sometimes the game shows Action Speed Bonus in one place - but Action Time reduction in another. Example: look at Frenzy's description which uses Action Speed bonus as value. Then (when frenzied) look at your weapon's attack speed and see how that action speed bonus translates to the actual action time reduction (the seconds you spare).

 

[Boeroer]

By the way: if you use a dual wielding setup for ranged attacks then the range of the main hand weapon is the range for your Full Attack. It doesn't matter what range your offhand weapon has. E.g. a blunderbuss in the offhand has a lot shorter range than a wand in the main hand - but when doing a Full Attack at wand's max range the blunderbuss will fire and hit nonetheless.

[srulz]

2. Wow RIP. I thought at least Dexterity would have some effect.

4. I understand, it's just that I'm mainly concerned about how to reduce my Scordeo's Edge attack timing when I have 0 recovery time.

39 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

By the way: if you use a dual wielding setup for ranged attacks then the range of the main hand weapon is the range for your Full Attack. It doesn't matter what range your offhand weapon has. E.g. a blunderbuss in the offhand has a lot shorter range than a wand in the main hand - but when doing a Full Attack at wand's max range the blunderbuss will fire and hit nonetheless.

Yes, that's the reason why I main the scepter and offhand the blunderbuss. So the sequencing is like this:

1. Full attack at 8 m.

2. Weapon switch while moving in.

3. IOP at 5 m.

I could probably use Scordeo's Trophy instead to get sweet -10% recovery which should persist after weapon switch (right?). But it seems a little overkill & Destructive Channeling should generate a least 1 wound.

Edited June 28, 2019 by srulz