How the heck do Monks do DPS?

[Lampros]

I am testing Paladin/Monk builds in my quest for the ultimate high DPS/high survivability/low micro-management melee character. But immediately I am struck by something: The Monk multi-class cannot seem to do adequate DPS - contrary to the advertisement that it is one of the top melee DPS classes. So how is this theoretic high DPS achieved? I can see that the class can attack fast, but that's not enough. It seems to have very little damage boosting passives; and none of the actives are quite as devastating as - well, the aptly named Rogue's Devastating Blow.

 

To give you an idea, I just ran a test at level 20 with the Fampyrs at some reef at right corner island, and the highest hit the Holy Slayer main did was 230 (without Magran's Favor), whereas the Votary test tube baby only did 120 at tops! Literally almost half.

 

Now, I know that the Votary can attack faster, but unless it can attack nearly twice as fast, I don't see how the Votary is making up the raw damage per hit deficit.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Oh, and add insult to insult, I was testing a Helwalker - which I will almost certainly not run in an actual playthrough.

 

TLDR: Monk DPS sucks in my tests; please tell me how to increase it.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Lampros

[Boeroer]

Then show me how the Holy Slayer can spam an AoE-attack that stuns all foes behind the initial target or how he gets +12 ACC for all his attack rolls.

 

Rogue's Devastating Blow has very limited uses by the way and tends to either overkill or not doing a lot of damage for its 2 Guile. A Crippling Strike will do more damage for its cost most of the time (also see PL scaling of offensive abilites: 5% base damage per additional PL).

 

The reason why the Holy Slayer does higher per hit damage is that the lashes from FoD and the dmg bonuses from the rogue work very well together. You could even better though with a Shadowdancer (Monk/Rogue) because he can have higher attack speed, +10 MIG =+30% additive dmg in addition to Sneak Attack, Deep Wounds and Deathblows as well as a big AoE attack with Torment's Reach (with profits from Turning Wheel's +10 INT), +15% shocking lash and +20% burning lash. You can even take Swift Flurry when you go into melee and later Heartbeat Drumming. An additional attack from a crit - which alsio causes weakened with Enervating Blows (Flurry + Heartbeat = overall 50% proc chance on crit) is like a 100% multiplicative dmg boost for that attack. 

 

The Holy Slayer doesn't have good AoE attacks (as long as he's not using an AoE weapon). But he makes the multiclass a lot sturdier and less micro-intensive. Monks are not low micro. They need a lot of positioning to be good - but in my opinion they are one of the best martial classes then. Stunning Surge alone... Also monk's fists scale very well with Powel Level. There's no weapon in the game that can get +26 Accuracy and has that high base dps (fast attack speed but high dmg per hit). And their biggest advantage: they don't have a single  fixed resource pool but can spam their stuff. 

 

Holy Slayers are rel. easy to play. Monks are not. I think that's the main reason why some people think monks are not that good. I would always prefer a monk over a paladin or rogue.

 

And then there's this: 

 

 

I call that pretty nice dps.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

Then show me how the Holy Slayer can spam an AoE-attack that stuns all foes behind the initial target or how he gets +12 ACC for all his attack rolls.

 

Rogue's Devastating Blow has very limited uses by the way and tends to either overkill or not doing a lot of damage for its 2 Guile. A Crippling Strike will do more damage for its cost most of the time (also see PL scaling of offensive abilites: 5% base damage per additional PL).

 

The reason why the Holy Slayer does higher per hit damage is that the lashes from FoD and the dmg bonuses from the rogue work very well together. You could even better though with a Shadowdancer (Monk/Rogue) because he can have higher attack speed, +10 MIG =+30% additive dmg in addition to Sneak Attack, Deep Wounds and Deathblows as well as a big AoE attack with Torment's Reach (with profits from Turning Wheel's +10 INT), +15% shocking lash and +20% burning lash. You can even take Swift Flurry when you go into melee and later Heartbeat Drumming. An additional attack from a crit - which alsio causes weakened with Enervating Blows (Flurry + Heartbeat = overall 50% proc chance on crit) is like a 100% multiplicative dmg boost for that attack. 

 

The Holy Slayer doesn't have good AoE attacks (as long as he's not using an AoE weapon). But he makes the multiclass a lot sturdier and less micro-intensive. Monks are not low micro. They need a lot of positioning to be good - but in my opinion they are one of the best martial classes then. Stunning Surge alone... Also monk's fists scale very well with Powel Level. There's no weapon in the game that can get +26 Accuracy and has that high base dps (fast attack speed but high dmg per hit). And their biggest advantage: they don't have a single  fixed resource pool but can spam their stuff. 

 

Holy Slayers are rel. easy to play. Monks are not. I think that's the main reason why some people think monks are not that good. I would always prefer a monk over a paladin or rogue.

 

And then there's this: 

 

 

I call that pretty nice dps.

 

I wouldn't try Shadowdancer, because my goal is to have a character that does high DPS while still being survivable and low-micro.

 

So if I were to build a Votary that can do DPS while still not needing so much positioning, then how would I go about it? What skills and gear, for instance? And what would I rely on as the bread and butter move(s)?

 

Edit: And I agree with the limitations of Devastating Blow. But with good scripting, I can consistently get reasonably high numbers.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Lampros

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

I am testing Paladin/Monk builds in my quest for the ultimate high DPS/high survivability/low micro-management melee character. But immediately I am struck by something: The Monk multi-class cannot seem to do adequate DPS - contrary to the advertisement that it is one of the top melee DPS classes. So how is this theoretic high DPS achieved? I can see that the class can attack fast, but that's not enough. It seems to have very little damage boosting passives; and none of the actives are quite as devastating as - well, the aptly named Rogue's Devastating Blow.

 

To give you an idea, I just ran a test at level 20 with the Fampyrs at some reef at right corner island, and the highest hit the Holy Slayer main did was 230 (without Magran's Favor), whereas the Votary test tube baby only did 120 at tops! Literally almost half.

 

Now, I know that the Votary can attack faster, but unless it can attack nearly twice as fast, I don't see how the Votary is making up the raw damage per hit deficit.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Oh, and add insult to insult, I was testing a Helwalker - which I will almost certainly not run in an actual playthrough.

 

TLDR: Monk DPS sucks in my tests; please tell me how to increase it.

 

You see... I think your problem is that you don't actually play the game but instead ask all these questions... which yields mostly subjective answers. 

 

Without making the mistakes you won't really have the wherewithal.

[Boeroer]

If you want low micro, low babysitting and high dps then stuff like Holy Slayer or Swashbuckler is perfect.

 

Monk without micro is wasting a lot of his potential. I never use AI, so that's fine for me. AI is just too dumb to position your monk perfectly well while it has no problem with single target abilites.

 

Votary is just not a very dps-heavy combo: now additive dmg boosts but lots of lashes. But lashes are best when combined with dmg boosts. Votary has only few (Retribution and maybe Two Handed Style in addition to quality enchantments and MIG...).

 

Only thing I personally would consider for a Votary led by AI (for offense) are Efficient Anguish + Enervating Blows + Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming - with a Morning Star and always-on Body Blows. It wouldn't do as much dmg as a Holy Slayer, but the constant interrupts and CC are very useful. It also lowers Fortitude by -35 without any resource cost which is VERY handy against a lot of foes.

 

Another thing that a Votary can do is go high RES and use Clarity of Agony to completely remove the raw self damage of Sacred Immolation. That will do nice AoE damage (use Magran's Favor and Sun&Moon for +4 burn PL) while it will not damage you. But that is lateish game...

 

So, I guess Holy Slayer is your best pick.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

 

I am testing Paladin/Monk builds in my quest for the ultimate high DPS/high survivability/low micro-management melee character. But immediately I am struck by something: The Monk multi-class cannot seem to do adequate DPS - contrary to the advertisement that it is one of the top melee DPS classes. So how is this theoretic high DPS achieved? I can see that the class can attack fast, but that's not enough. It seems to have very little damage boosting passives; and none of the actives are quite as devastating as - well, the aptly named Rogue's Devastating Blow.

 

To give you an idea, I just ran a test at level 20 with the Fampyrs at some reef at right corner island, and the highest hit the Holy Slayer main did was 230 (without Magran's Favor), whereas the Votary test tube baby only did 120 at tops! Literally almost half.

 

Now, I know that the Votary can attack faster, but unless it can attack nearly twice as fast, I don't see how the Votary is making up the raw damage per hit deficit.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Oh, and add insult to insult, I was testing a Helwalker - which I will almost certainly not run in an actual playthrough.

 

TLDR: Monk DPS sucks in my tests; please tell me how to increase it.

 

You see... I think your problem is that you don't actually play the game but instead ask all these questions... which yields mostly subjective answers. 

 

Without making the mistakes you won't really have the wherewithal.

 

 

You are partly right; but I did play an entire PotD just now with both Holy Slayer and Swashbuckler, and I liked the Holy Slayer and I hated Swashbuckler. So I am trying to find a different front-line partner for the Holy Slayer - which is why I am looking at the Votary.

 

If you want low micro, low babysitting and high dps then stuff like Holy Slayer or Swashbuckler is perfect.

 

Monk without micro is wasting a lot of his potential. I never use AI, so that's fine for me. AI is just too dumb to position your monk perfectly well while it has no problem with single target abilites.

 

Votary is just not a very dps-heavy combo: now additive dmg boosts but lots of lashes. But lashes are best when combined with dmg boosts. Votary has only few (Retribution and maybe Two Handed Style in addition to quality enchantments and MIG...). 

 

Only thing I personally would consider for a Votary led by AI (for offense) are Efficient Anguish + Enervating Blows + Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming - with a Morning Star and always-on Body Blows. It wouldn't do as much dmg as a Holy Slayer, but the constant interrupts and CC are very useful. It also lowers Fortitude by -35 without any resource cost which is VERY handy against a lot of foes. 

 

Another thing that a Votary can do is go high RES and use Clarity of Agony to completely remove the raw self damage of Sacred Immolation. That will do nice AoE damage (use Magran's Favor and Sun&Moon for +4 burn PL) while it will not damage you. But that is latish game...

 

So, I guess Holy Slayer is your best pick. 

 

Thanks; I will try as you suggested. So if Votary is not an ideal partner for my Holy Slayer main, then what Paladin multi-class can give me both high DPS and suvivability/low micro? I've already tried Crusader, and I was fine with it, but it was nowhere as strong as the Holy Slayer; and I didn't like the Swashbuckler either.

[AndreaColombo]

I am testing Paladin/Monk builds in my quest for the ultimate high DPS/high survivability/low micro-management melee character.

 

How low are we talking?

[Lampros]

 

I am testing Paladin/Monk builds in my quest for the ultimate high DPS/high survivability/low micro-management melee character.

 

How low are we talking?

 

 

I tend to script everything and watch the fight - except to heal or get rid of nasty afflictions (only because auto script is not fast enough sometimes). Obviously for tough fights I have to manual the pull (especially in the first island), but that's about the extent of it.

[Lampros]

By the way, Swift Flurry or Lightning Strike - which?

[Boeroer]

Depends. If you can crit a lot with a melee weapon then Swift Flurry. For example a Sage (Spirit Lance + Stunning Surge) is better with Swift Flurry.

Procs off itself aside: if you crit ~50% of your attack swings then it's as good as Lightning Strikes. So in most cases Lightning is the better option. Ranged monks can only use Lightning Strikes. Long Pain is considered ranged.

[Lampros]

Depends. If you can crit a lot with a melee weapon then Swift Flurry. For example a Sage (Spirit Lance + Stunning Surge) is better with Swift Flurry.

Procs off itself aside: if you crit ~50% of your attack swings then it's as good as Lightning Strikes. So in most cases Lightning is the better option. Ranged monks can only use Lightning Strikes. Long Pain is considered ranged.

 

Thanks; it looks like I am criting about 33 percent - though a tiny sample. I will go with Lightning Strikes then. Not much gear that gives lightning lash though - I can only think of the bound pollaxe?