The current state of Spiritshifting: Ideas, reworks and more

[Harpagornis]

Even though Patch 2.1 is out Druids and especially Shifters have not get any real love. What a pity Obsidian!

 

I never understood why Spiritshifting Forms should not take some kind of evolution that not only makes AR, Damage, PEN and Accuracy scaling but give them new - and in the best case  - some unique abilities. The last one is what i have tried in the last week but modding the stuff into the Spiritshift Forms proved to be trickier than i thought.

 

However: I have reworked the abilities of each form, mainly adding new ones at levels 4, 10 and 16. My main goal was to make each Form filling a special role that would make the Shifter some kind of "Jack-of-all-Trades". I reworked abilities from Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Ranger and even one from the Priest:

 

Bear

Level 4: Paw Swipe (Barbaric Blow)

Level 10: Thunderous Blows

Level 16: Crush! (Panther Leap)

All in all the Bear gets a heavy damage attack, a buff for better penetration and a AoE damage that also allows for quick engagement. Spirit Frenzy went out.

 

Boar

Level 4: Taste of the Hunt

Level 10: Boar Charge

Level 16: Proliferation (Unbending)

Taste of the Hunt fits well to the raw damage and healing abilites of the Boar while Charge is another heavy engagement tool. Unbending will make sure that the Shifter will survive even heavy enemy fire. At least for some time.

 

Cat

Level 4: Camouflage (Smoke Veil)

Level 10: Finish them! (Finishing Blow)

Level 16: Game Over! (Flurry of Blades)

The easy escape tool gets complemented with a nice finisher while Game Over will be a nice spellcaster disabler. Fast and deadly thats how cats should be.

 

Wolf

Level 4: Marked Prey

Level 10: Ferocious Strikes (Disciplined Strikes)

Level 16: Concussion Blow

Very nice to hit and crit buffs that gets rounded up with a very versatile anti-boss-ability. On its own maybe the weakest Form but when combined with the rest of the pack Shifters should get some nice synergies.

 

Stag

Level 4: Suppress Affliction

Level 10: Relentless Defender (Vigouros Defense)

Level 16: Stag Fury (Clear Out)

A mix from offensive and defensive abilities along with buffed Stag Defense & Carnage should make the Stag much more interesting now.

 

Stormblight

Level 10: Returning Storm

Level 16: Endless Storm

A bit more Lightning Thunder seems like the right way to go

 

I will start a naked run with a single class Shifter in the next days (maybe with DD) to see how OP the whole thing have went. Without any other buffs (like +AR, double damage types or  increased penetration) i hope that it makes Druids "only" even more flexible. We will see...

 

P.S. I also tweaked some numbers and changed icons that fit better to the Spirtshifting Forms!

Edited September 13, 2018 by Harpagornis

[mant2si]

Coool, okay so my thought, now you need give them proper passives on PL > 7 +I will add something for additional ACC, for example +2ACC on Hit for 30S for all forms
 
Bear - Carnage and immunity to Might Affliction
 
Boar - Immunity to Constitution affliction and 10% * PL chance to reflect spell
 
Cat - Deathblows + Apprence Sneak Attack, Immunity to Dexterity affliction, Backstab
 
Wolf - Immunity to Perception affliction, restore 15HP per 1s for 1s  on Crit

Stag - Immunity to Resolve affliction, Immunity to Flank affliction, 

Could you allow spirit-shift without per-combat limitation ?
 

[Harpagornis]

Yeah, you are writing down my own (hidden) concept. I must admit that (at first) it was my plan to give each form a unique affliction immunity but decided against it cause with all the abilities the Druid already feels quite powerful. At least on paper. But you have definetely more XP regarding late game fights.

 

You think that Druids still are somewhat balanced with all the new abilities? Should the other buffs (AR-scaling, +PEN, Double-Damage-Type...) stilll be there?

 

I think that it now should be no (big) problem adding new spells too. But maybe i should test the new abilities first in practice.

 

Do you want to test the still not published Alpha-Mod @mant2si and  give me some feedback? As my time is lacking i wont get to gaming before next week!

 

P.S. Allowing Spiritshifting outside of combat is only about changing one entry...

Edited September 13, 2018 by Harpagornis

[mant2si]

Yeah, you are writing down my own (hidden) concept. I must admit that (at first) it was my plan to give each form a unique affliction immunity but decided against it cause with all the abilities the Druid already feels quite powerful. At least on paper. But you have definetely more XP regarding late game fights.

 

You think that Druids still are somewhat balanced with all the new abilities? Should the other buffs (AR-scaling, +PEN, Double-Damage-Type...) stilll be there?

 

I think that it now should be no (big) problem adding new spells too. But maybe i should test the new abilities first in practice.

 

Do you want to test the still not published Alpha-Mod @mant2si and  give me some feedback? As my time is lacking i wont get to gaming before next week!

 

P.S. Spiritshifting outside of combat should be doable... lets see...

let's me explain my point of view, I interested  only in L20 fights, simple - because I like top level abilities and game-play diversity which these abilities give for you, I usually do all Neketaka quests solo and they give me L19, then I start play all other game content, because of that I use DD mod (to make all enemies scaling with my level) 

 

So all my builds I test only on level 19 - 20

 

What I test:

 

1. BoW  (this one has the most stupid mechanic in the game, this guy has 5500K HP and all his ability regain his HP very fast, if you build don't has enough DPS or can't tank him you will die, this boss also leach your buff's duration)

2. Ukaizo Guardian (this one has very high armor and some annoying transition for 30S, so this fight will be very long and usually test how you can lower enemies armor and survive constatle interruptions) 

3. Queen fight (this one test how you can kill enemies group with a lot of healing)

4. High Level Board fights

 

Most of my solo builds can't do BoW dragon and his mechanic without cosumables, if you plan kill him solo with your class you need something special

 

For example Paladins has infinity healing and +3 passive armor (which in summary can rise his armor to 21), Streetfighter has +400% DM bonus, Wizards has Combusting Wounds and Monks has Resonate touch

 

You don't add any of this mechanic to your mod, which mean you can't kill that guy solo or without multi to one of these class, but even if you plan balance your mod for solo Ukaizo Guardian you need 17 PEN for non Electrical/Crush damage and 14 PEN for Electrical/Crush and a-lot of healing 

 

 

[mant2si]

I mean will be cool to spirit-shift multiple times during combat

I will have time only on weekends, I can test your mod, but I already now that even with this abilities only Paladin/X or Streetfighter/X  will be able to do something good

Edited September 13, 2018 by mant2si

[mant2si]

For point of view, if you want give druid interested game-play you must make Shifter guy work as their ancestor from NWN, for example

Transform Druid to Golem form with 18 AR or to Adragan and allow them Dominate other guys or for Dragon with infinity Breath and Fear aura, we need give something special for example as i mention Life Leaching in Wolf form, this will be unique mechanic which will allow druid survive little bit longer vs bosses 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by mant2si

[Harpagornis]

Okay, with your setting in mind @mant2si the Druid - a single class even more - will indeed need "something special". Hhhmmmmm... so all of the small buffs and tweaks are a little push into the right direction but.... hmmmmm... we need more!

 

You mentioned some new spells earlier. Maybe that should be my next priority as i think that the Spiritshifting part already got some "huge" buff. I will take a closer look at the spells tomorrow and IF i manage to get them in i will contact you for some late-game-fight-testing. If you like!

 

But first some sleep... ideas always come when sleeping... good ideas... BIG ideas...

 

P.S. I think its better to make the duration of shifting a little bit longer... shifting more than one time for each form sounds... hhmmmm...

Edited September 13, 2018 by Harpagornis

[mant2si]

I want to ask you, would you like to balance your mod for solo or for party ? 

Edited September 13, 2018 by mant2si

[mant2si]

I thinking about some cool mechanic which will allow you fight bosses but don't make you over strong, so it should be some way to regenerate resources, could you make passive ability which will auto-summon forest spirit (allied creature) per 6s, this creature will have few abilities, after ability cast spirit will die

1. Regain 1 class resource for single target
2. Lay of Hand 
3. Thorny Roots
4. Reduce target debuff duration's for -10s

Edited September 13, 2018 by mant2si

[Yosharian]

Sounds like you're making the class overpowered. It's a spellcaster. Fighter performs just as well as it... so? Fighter doesn't have full spellcasting ability...

[Harpagornis]

Shapeshifters or here - Shifters - are not like normal spellcasters in my eyes. They put a lot effort to control their forms, but sacrifice some spellcasting abilities. Thats why i am thinking about giving them another penalty: They lose all of their autogrant spells per Powerlevel.

 

And as @mant2si stated earlier: There are still better classes or class combos for big fights than a Shifter - even with the new abilities. Yes, the Forms now get a lot more punch and utility but what will happens once the buffs and Spiritshift duration runs out while the big boss is still standing? Then the Shifter has nothing left than "a little bit" of spellcasting. Will this be enough for the BoW Dragon or the Guardian of Ukaizo? Further tests will show how powerful they really are - or not!

Edited September 14, 2018 by Harpagornis

[Yosharian]

Druids are excellent spellcasters, I don't think they sacrifice anything at all.

[Harpagornis]

I am talking about Shifters in particular not Druids in general. Thats why i said that Shifters should get another kind of disadvantage when in comes to spellcasting. One idea is to reduce their spellpool another to reduce the overall Powerlevel when casting spells. I never said that balancing would be easy - its a long way!

 

P.S. I removed all AutoGrant spells for Shifters. That was the easy part. Getting a Conditional so Affliction Immunities only activate at level 20 are tougher. Somehow they always get activated at level 1 - despite any PreRequisites. Will have to take a look at that later...

Edited September 14, 2018 by Harpagornis

[Yosharian]

I am talking about Shifters in particular not Druids in general. Thats why i said that Shifters should get another kind of disadvantage when in comes to spellcasting. One idea is to reduce their spellpool another to reduce the overall Powerlevel when casting spells.

 

It's quite simple really.  Make them unable to cast any spell with the 'elements' keyword.  (They cannot cast while Shifted currently, but that doesn't stop them from casting long duration spells then Shifting.)

 

Then, whatever buffs you throw at them are justified.  It would also be a good way to differentiate them from the usual offensive spellcasting Druid shenanigans of 'cast Returning Storm, move next to enemy'.

[dunehunter]

People complain streetfighter was too weak, obs overtuned it, then they complain trickster was too weak, obs overturned it. No more plz

[Harpagornis]

If you think that the mod so far is overtuned it would be nice if you give me more details @dunehunter.

Or do you think that Shifters are perfectly viable and/or top tier?

 

New ideas are always welcome!

 

Removing all spells with keyword "Elememants" is quite brutal.... hmmmm... in this case Spirishifting would need another buff.

 

What about that: Shifters are not allowed to wear any armor? This would make the human part much more dangerous for Shifters...

Edited September 14, 2018 by Harpagornis

[dunehunter]

If you think that the mod so far is overtuned it would be nice if you give me more details @dunehunter.

Or do you think that Shifters are perfectly viable and/or top tier?

 

New ideas are always welcome!

 

Removing all spells with keyword "Elememants" is quite brutal.... hmmmm... in this case Spirishifting would need another buff.

 

What about that: Shifters are not allowed to wear any armor? This would make the human part much more dangerous for Shifters...

 

Nah I just think they are fine comparing with vanilla druid. I think subclass is a subclass, it provides u another option beside the original class, it is NOT a prestige class in dnd.

[Haplok]

Which is a pity actually.

[mant2si]

Well @Harpagornis you need to decide your further plans to mod If you want only balance Shifter or make it fun as Streetfighter/Trickster/Monk/Wizard ? Do you want to balance it for solo play or for party, do you want to change only end game or also early game ?

On my opinion each class should has access to something very special which will allow players create their builds and enjoy game, no one tell you that Pure monk  has Resonate touch which stronger than all your changes in your mod Or that single CW spell can be used to kill boss in 15S

I know there a lot of people complains about game balance, but most of them never play pure Shifhter or Druid as main character (enough to check build list on this forum to find most addicted classes)

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by mant2si

[Harpagornis]

Yeah, they might be fine when comparing them with vanilla druid but - at least in my eyes - they are far away from what they could be.

 

But as Obsidian most likely wont change much its up to the players to make something special and more interesting. We will see!

[Yosharian]

If you think that the mod so far is overtuned it would be nice if you give me more details @dunehunter.

Or do you think that Shifters are perfectly viable and/or top tier?

 

New ideas are always welcome!

 

Removing all spells with keyword "Elememants" is quite brutal.... hmmmm... in this case Spirishifting would need another buff.

 

What about that: Shifters are not allowed to wear any armor? This would make the human part much more dangerous for Shifters...

 

Yes, it's brutal, but it justifies you making sweeping changes to the Spiritshift system.

 

If you look at what the Shifter class is meant to do, it's got lots of Spiritshift uses per encounter, and it can't cast while shifted.  So, subtracting from its spellcasting power fits the concept.

 

The Shift class shouldn't need Elements spells, because it should be too busy ripping things to shreds with its Spiritshift forms.

 

Come out of Spiritshift, throw out a heal or two, then go back to biting things to death.

[Harpagornis]

Good point @mant2si. The dream would be to create a unique class the is fun to play while also being at least in the mid-upper tier.

 

The problem is that modding unique mechanics are far above my skills even though i would really like to integrate them.

 

So for the moment i must live with my low skills while still finding ways to make Shifter more appealing.

 

Not to forget: My personal aim is solo play. In best case the Shifter will be strong throughout the game until hitting level 20. Sounds like a lot of work... :D

Edited September 14, 2018 by Harpagornis

[mant2si]

Good point @mant2si. The dream would be to create a unique class the is fun to play while also being at least in the mind-upper tier.

 

The problem is that modding unique mechanics are far above my skills even though i would really like to integrate them.

 

So for the moment i must live with my low skills while still finding ways to make Shifter more appealing.

 

Not to forget: My personal aim is solo play. In best case the Shifter will be strong throughout the game until hitting level 20. Sounds like a lot of work... :D

Well just give for pure Shifter some way to recovery resources and some way to passive regeneration, for example restore 1 class resource on crit, and unlimited Taste of the Hunt

Edited September 14, 2018 by mant2si

[Harpagornis]

Elemental spells should be gone soon. Hopefully. If this works i will try to go for the next steps: Making Spiritshifting more powerful.

 

There is an interesting part: If you allow multiple transformations per form each spiritshifting will refresh all (!) active abilities. I think thats something to remember.

 

Theoretically we could give the Shifter endless tranformations with endless abilities. Okay, that would be a bit OP but its time to think about how often a Druid can spiritshift. Maybe the number can increase with level? Two at level 4, three at 10, four at 16. Sounds interesting at least on paper!

Edited September 14, 2018 by Harpagornis

[Harpagornis]

Thanks to several crashes i crippled my progressiontables.gamedatabundle. Can anyone upload the file for me here? Thanks!