[SPOILERS!] [LORE] - How souls were "infusing" bodies before Engwitans "invented" the Wheel?

[Sherab]

I see your point.

 

Ehhh... this is why I feel sorry that those dialoges with Eothas that were explaining all story were cutt-off.

 

As for the corruption of the gods - I think, that big message here is that they have all the flaws of their creators.

 

But, from other hand, my understanding is that their main "domain" was created together with them. So I can understand concept behind Woedica, for example. Outh binder, protector of justice. Ok, ultimetly, she is very corrupted indeed, but I can understand concept behind her.

 

But it is hard for me to see any really good motivation behind Skaen, simply. He seems to be corrupted by design.

 

And it is funny, that besides Eothas, almost all gods seems to be selfish tyrrans. Only Hylea behave a little bit different.

 

And to be honest, I see that most of us tend to see Eothas in good light. However, one can poin-out that while he may speak noble things, and have noble couse, the method he choosed is rather disputable. He could at least not to destroy my castle!

[Walter.Richards]

 

Another option is ... souls did not originally reincarnate on Eora.  They were moving on to somewhere else.

But the Engwithans believed reincarnating their souls on Eora would allow their civilization to advance faster, so they invented the Wheel.

Redirecting the flow of souls as we have redirected rivers to harness their power.

(I mean, if you retain knowledge of past lives it's a shortcut to learning - thus a shortcut to advancing civilization)

 

In this theory, destroying the Wheel would allow the "river" to resume it's natural flow.

It would also mean that souls either are created "spontaneously" ... or the "river" eventually flows back to Eora.

 

I find some problems with those concepts.

 

If souls were "born" out of nothing, spontaneously, before the invention of the Wheel, this still do not explain, then, why destruction of the Wheel will cause slow, but ultimatly total day-out of Eora's life (if Kith won't find solution to the problem). And this is what the gods claim - at least Berath seems to claim so, and Eothas do not negates this in anyway. I don't mean that it couldn't be this way. But we still lacking explanation why this "natural" process have been destroyed in one way or another along the creation of the Wheel. And again, I don't think we need here some straight-forward asnwer - it can be a little misterious subject, but problem is that game's plot, or it's lore give no single clue to assume, that prior to the Wheel world functioned in anyway different than it does now.

 

 

 

If the InBetween is similar to a river ... and souls were flowing to other places before the Wheel redirected them back to Eora ... then when the Wheel was destroyed, that "river" would resume it's old course.  Or something close to it.  Similar to removing a dam.  So it may take a while for souls to get back to Eora, following the old "riverbed" since those places "downstream" have had a "drought" of souls for so long.

 

Or not.  The "river" may have naturally cut Eora out of the "loop" once the Wheel started.  Even the gods wouldn't know that.

 

Trying to figure philosophy and religion IRL is difficult enough.  Figuring it out in an artificial world, where the designers probably haven't even thought it all the way through, just gives me a headache.  LOL

[misterjimmy]

Eothas is a naive and irresponsible god.

Edited August 31, 2018 by misterjimmy

[Walter.Richards]

My theory: its a cycle. 

 

...

 

On the note of a cycle in which mortals become gods; if this is in fact where Obsidian is going with the plot, it actually does have roots in real world beliefs, albeit in a different way. Eastern philosophies emphasize attaining spiritual enlightenment till you effectively become one with (or simply become) god. In a bit of an odd way perhaps, the notion of entire races evolving past their mortality makes sense in that context. just on a less individual level. 

Or the science fiction of Stargate and Babylon5 ... both had "gods" that were just highly advanced prior civilizations.

[Daggerknight]

I see your point.

 

Ehhh... this is why I feel sorry that those dialoges with Eothas that were explaining all story were cutt-off.

 

As for the corruption of the gods - I think, that big message here is that they have all the flaws of their creators.

 

But, from other hand, my understanding is that their main "domain" was created together with them. So I can understand concept behind Woedica, for example. Outh binder, protector of justice. Ok, ultimetly, she is very corrupted indeed, but I can understand concept behind her.

 

But it is hard for me to see any really good motivation behind Skaen, simply. He seems to be corrupted by design.

 

And it is funny, that besides Eothas, almost all gods seems to be selfish tyrrans. Only Hylea behave a little bit different.

 

And to be honest, I see that most of us tend to see Eothas in good light. However, one can poin-out that while he may speak noble things, and have noble couse, the method he choosed is rather disputable. He could at least not to destroy my castle!

 

I actually disagree about all the gods coming across as selfish. I mean, in POE 1, Gaelawyn tasks you with giving the souls to the Dyrwood to make everyone there stronger. He does not demand you offer them to him, and in general he wants people to be strong. Heck, he even has a pretty tolerant take on animancy, calling it "another kind of hunt". Magran too, comes across as harsh and arrogant, but past that all I got the impression that she honestly thought she was helping.  Contrast that with Woedica and Rhymergand; the former wants everyone to be her slave with little given in return, and the latter just wants the world to die. 

 

I do agree about Eothas himself though. That guy is just a naive prick whose idea of helping people in a burning building is to throw gasoline on the whole thing...   

[Sherab]

Oh, I was thinking mostly about how the gods were depicted in the Dedfire.

 

 

In first PoE? I would say they were more interesting in general, because they were not stripped totaly from mistery and divinity. Even after the great revealance (with wasn't really that "great" for me, honestly) of their true nature by Iovara, they stayed somewhat elusive. When earlier our hero was interacting with them, there was (at least for me) that feeling, that those are indeed some "higher" beings.

 

 

While there were holes in storytelling in first PoE, and in general one can claim, that writing was of lower sort (but even so, it was good enough to keep me interested), it was propably better than in Deadfire - at least if we speak about main plot.

 

 

Anyway, in Deadfire, all of the gods, even if they do not speak about it in "open-text", seems to worry mostly about two things:

 

 

- it may happen, that they won't be worshipped any longer,

 

- and they will die from "soul-starvation".

 

 

And while (depending of our choosen dialoge options) Berath can be gentle, even nice sometimes, at the same time he/she is blackmailing the Watcher constantly, and he/she is eager to remind about this to us if we will show any sign of dissobeyance.

 

 

As I wrote before, only Hylea seems to be not worried so much about Eothas' actions - perhaps this is to be in line with first PoE. From conversations with Durance we know, that she was "allied" to Eothas, and she helped eothasian refuges after the Saint's War.

[Mirandel]

But who said even with the Wheel reincarnation was the only source of the souls for the newborn? After all, animals (including humans/kith) tend to multiply. With re0ncarnation only the number of living beings in Eora has to be constant. Hard to imagine that to be the case.

 

We know nothing about demographic situation on Eora, of course, but we do know from PoE1, that souls wither in reincarnation process, plus get destroyed in all kind of gods games. Yet, no one talks about declining number of populous.

 

I'd say, if anything, it's an indication, souls do appear anew and destruction of the Wheel should not be that dangerous for Eora.

[Daggerknight]

But who said even with the Wheel reincarnation was the only source of the souls for the newborn? After all, animals (including humans/kith) tend to multiply. With re0ncarnation only the number of living beings in Eora has to be constant. Hard to imagine that to be the case.

 

We know nothing about demographic situation on Eora, of course, but we do know from PoE1, that souls wither in reincarnation process, plus get destroyed in all kind of gods games. Yet, no one talks about declining number of populous.

 

I'd say, if anything, it's an indication, souls do appear anew and destruction of the Wheel should not be that dangerous for Eora.

 

To Eora itself, probably not. Remember though, that a big red flag is that without the wheel (or something like it), all those souls get stuck in limbo/  a very real state of hell. Sure, eventually they might wither away and reform into something else, but in the mean time you have a few million possible years of torment. That primordial chaos possibly existed before, but that doesn't mean its a state anyone should be in any hurry to get back to. 

 

Regarding the degradation of the soul; my guess would be that while an individual eventually fades, their essence, such as it is, falls off and reforms into other states. Key point here is that the soul is treated as energy, which cannot be "destroyed", just changed. Also,  its possible that while souls erode, they can also be added to. We already see precedents of beings 'absorbing' other souls, so its likely that the process goes both ways regarding decay. 

[Sherab]

 

But who said even with the Wheel reincarnation was the only source of the souls for the newborn? After all, animals (including humans/kith) tend to multiply. With re0ncarnation only the number of living beings in Eora has to be constant. Hard to imagine that to be the case.

 

We know nothing about demographic situation on Eora, of course, but we do know from PoE1, that souls wither in reincarnation process, plus get destroyed in all kind of gods games. Yet, no one talks about declining number of populous.

 

I'd say, if anything, it's an indication, souls do appear anew and destruction of the Wheel should not be that dangerous for Eora.

 

To Eora itself, probably not. Remember though, that a big red flag is that without the wheel (or something like it), all those souls get stuck in limbo/  a very real state of hell. Sure, eventually they might wither away and reform into something else, but in the mean time you have a few million possible years of torment. That primordial chaos possibly existed before, but that doesn't mean its a state anyone should be in any hurry to get back to. 

 

Regarding the degradation of the soul; my guess would be that while an individual eventually fades, their essence, such as it is, falls off and reforms into other states. Key point here is that the soul is treated as energy, which cannot be "destroyed", just changed. Also,  its possible that while souls erode, they can also be added to. We already see precedents of beings 'absorbing' other souls, so its likely that the process goes both ways regarding decay. 

 

 

 

I mostly agree with your explanation, Daggerknight.

 

 

I would add, that we know from the dead-dwarf animancer (one hanging on the tree in Gilded Vale in PoE 1) that souls in general tends to get apart. So theorethicaly one "stronger" soul can be a source of essence for couple of "lower" beings. Elementals and wisps seems to be an example of such a lower beings. And finally, there are also pieces so tiny, that they are all around in the world, and serve as a source of energy for wizards' spells, for example. But occasionaly, they can merge in somewhat "more", creating a little bit "stronger" soul - but according to the dwarf-woman, this is rather rare compared to usual falling apart of souls.

 

 

 

 

However, I will agree with Mirandel to some point, due to above mentioned "entropy". If souls in general tend to rather fall apart - and we should not forget that the essence is also partialy stolen by the gods, to sustain their existance - hence they get "smaller" and "smaller", and only occasionaly "pieces" of them merge into somewhat "more" than they were before, than this propably would mean indeed, that number of intelligent races - the Kith mostly - would be not only not grow in time, but perhaps even constantly droping. And I think, that this problem was simply overlooked by writers

 

 

Still, even if we assume that there is some source of new-souls, filling the gap created by the "entropy" of Rymrgand, as Mirandel propose, it seems, that this is not resolving the problem of stucking of souls in the In-between. So it seems that destruction of the Wheel is disturbing a "flow" of all souls, even of those theorethicaly new, as Daggerknight have explained.

[Mirandel]

 

But who said even with the Wheel reincarnation was the only source of the souls for the newborn? After all, animals (including humans/kith) tend to multiply. With re0ncarnation only the number of living beings in Eora has to be constant. Hard to imagine that to be the case.

 

We know nothing about demographic situation on Eora, of course, but we do know from PoE1, that souls wither in reincarnation process, plus get destroyed in all kind of gods games. Yet, no one talks about declining number of populous.

 

I'd say, if anything, it's an indication, souls do appear anew and destruction of the Wheel should not be that dangerous for Eora.

 

To Eora itself, probably not. Remember though, that a big red flag is that without the wheel (or something like it), all those souls get stuck in limbo/  a very real state of hell. Sure, eventually they might wither away and reform into something else, but in the mean time you have a few million possible years of torment. That primordial chaos possibly existed before, but that doesn't mean its a state anyone should be in any hurry to get back to. 

 

Regarding the degradation of the soul; my guess would be that while an individual eventually fades, their essence, such as it is, falls off and reforms into other states. Key point here is that the soul is treated as energy, which cannot be "destroyed", just changed. Also,  its possible that while souls erode, they can also be added to. We already see precedents of beings 'absorbing' other souls, so its likely that the process goes both ways regarding decay. 

 

 

Small correction - not "hell" (horrible place where souls get tortured) but Hel - a resting/waiting place.

 

Now, as Sherab said, "dead dwarf amimancer" mentioned that souls fusion or even unchanging is a very rear occasion. Normal faith of the souls is to degrade. And again, should Eora be a closed system, in that case we would see a general degradation of kith (both mental and numbers). I tend to agree with Sherab, it's more like writers did not think about that problem but it's not the first time headcanon comes to rescue.

So far, to rectify all inconsistencies, I treat soul energie as sun energy - a constant flow (from somewhere) allowing accumulation of biosoulmass. This way if Wheel destruction indeed disrupts the flow of the souls (questionable at best, considering the source of information), all we have to do is to wait for the critical mass to overcome the obstacle. 

[Sherab]

 

This way if Wheel destruction indeed disrupts the flow of the souls (questionable at best, considering the source of information), all we have to do is to wait for the critical mass to overcome the obstacle. 

 

 

 

Yes, I was wondering about this too. It seems to be clear that part of the task of the Wheel is to "steal" portions of essence to sustain life of the gods. So they are cleary depended on it.

 

But since the job of stopping Eothas is given to a mortal - the Watcher, then Berath may be more than eager to exaggerate consequances for mortals' realm to encourage us to prevent destruction of the Wheel.

 

Still, while Eothas obviously do not depict destruction of the Wheel as terrifing as Berath do, he do not try to hide that this will be at least a big problem for the Kith too.

 

Hence, I'm not really sure Berath was lying. So I assume, that destruction of the Wheel is indeed a real problem for the Kith, with will not solve by itself.

[house2fly]

It's not as clear as it should be, but Eothas's goal in breaking the Wheel is to cause a situation which will require gods and mortals to work together to fix it, causing the relationship between them to be "reborn"

[Sherab]

Yes, I think that too. However, this is not only possible ending of the story. In general, Eothas assumes too much. Everything can go totaly oposite to what he intended. But still, he is ready to kill haundreds, or maybe thousends of the Kith, just to reach Ukaizo. Not to mention, that he possibly can inprison all souls in the in-between for ever. And to kill all of the gods btw.

 

He is a fanatic type of character, who way to easily sacrifice lives of others for his ultimate goal. I must say, that nonetheless I like him, somehow. I tend to be a dreamer and idealist myself. But I definitely do not appreciate his methods.

[Daggerknight]

 

 

But who said even with the Wheel reincarnation was the only source of the souls for the newborn? After all, animals (including humans/kith) tend to multiply. With re0ncarnation only the number of living beings in Eora has to be constant. Hard to imagine that to be the case.

 

We know nothing about demographic situation on Eora, of course, but we do know from PoE1, that souls wither in reincarnation process, plus get destroyed in all kind of gods games. Yet, no one talks about declining number of populous.

 

I'd say, if anything, it's an indication, souls do appear anew and destruction of the Wheel should not be that dangerous for Eora.

 

To Eora itself, probably not. Remember though, that a big red flag is that without the wheel (or something like it), all those souls get stuck in limbo/  a very real state of hell. Sure, eventually they might wither away and reform into something else, but in the mean time you have a few million possible years of torment. That primordial chaos possibly existed before, but that doesn't mean its a state anyone should be in any hurry to get back to. 

 

Regarding the degradation of the soul; my guess would be that while an individual eventually fades, their essence, such as it is, falls off and reforms into other states. Key point here is that the soul is treated as energy, which cannot be "destroyed", just changed. Also,  its possible that while souls erode, they can also be added to. We already see precedents of beings 'absorbing' other souls, so its likely that the process goes both ways regarding decay. 

 

 

Small correction - not "hell" (horrible place where souls get tortured) but Hel - a resting/waiting place.

 

Now, as Sherab said, "dead dwarf amimancer" mentioned that souls fusion or even unchanging is a very rear occasion. Normal faith of the souls is to degrade. And again, should Eora be a closed system, in that case we would see a general degradation of kith (both mental and numbers). I tend to agree with Sherab, it's more like writers did not think about that problem but it's not the first time headcanon comes to rescue.

So far, to rectify all inconsistencies, I treat soul energie as sun energy - a constant flow (from somewhere) allowing accumulation of biosoulmass. This way if Wheel destruction indeed disrupts the flow of the souls (questionable at best, considering the source of information), all we have to do is to wait for the critical mass to overcome the obstacle. 

 

 

I actually meant hell, as in, the state of being, not the place they refer to in Eora. 

 

 

Yes, I think that too. However, this is not only possible ending of the story. In general, Eothas assumes too much. Everything can go totaly oposite to what he intended. But still, he is ready to kill haundreds, or maybe thousends of the Kith, just to reach Ukaizo. Not to mention, that he possibly can inprison all souls in the in-between for ever. And to kill all of the gods btw.

 

He is a fanatic type of character, who way to easily sacrifice lives of others for his ultimate goal. I must say, that nonetheless I like him, somehow. I tend to be a dreamer and idealist myself. But I definitely do not appreciate his methods.

 

That's the part about Eothas's plan that I never could get on board with. He sort of just assumes that the current generation of Kith will solve the problem in any reasonable amount of time, and has to be asked to create a temporary haven for souls in the mean time. Worse yet, he assumes that Woedica isn't going to do something to take advantage of the wheel being broken by marshaling a new form of the Leaden Key to remake and control a new system themselves, which would be a hundred times worse than the situation he's trying to 'fix' by smashing everything in the world from Raedceris to Ukaizo. 

 

Strangely, by the end of the game, I was actually on board with Galawyne, Magran and the Pallid Knight more than him. While Magran is super arrogant and the Pallid knight is a manipulative postanago, at least the current system does SOMETHING for Kith (a something that Eothas doesn't even have a problem with depending on whose running it). Furthermore, again, arrogance aside, I didn't really feel like that 'faction' of gods really had ill intents for kith (aside from the whole "absorbing our children' bit... 0_o ). 

 

Speaking of the absorbing of godlike... that's another thing I'm wondering about. On the one hand, it suggests they see the godlike as a backup plan. On the other hand, Ondera sounds like she has actual affection for her "children". Any thoughts? (off topic, pardon...). 

 

 

It's not as clear as it should be, but Eothas's goal in breaking the Wheel is to cause a situation which will require gods and mortals to work together to fix it, causing the relationship between them to be "reborn"

 

This seems like a pretty reasonable take, yeah. Eothas didn't seem to have it out for anyone besides Woedica since POE 1, and Hylea doesn't sound like she thinks he does either. Maybe he really does just want the door to be more open, though again, his solution being to plant C4 in the office building is a bit much....

[Sherab]

 

Strangely, by the end of the game, I was actually on board with Galawyne, Magran and the Pallid Knight more than him. While Magran is super arrogant and the Pallid knight is a manipulative postanago, at least the current system does SOMETHING for Kith (a something that Eothas doesn't even have a problem with depending on whose running it). Furthermore, again, arrogance aside, I didn't really feel like that 'faction' of gods really had ill intents for kith (aside from the whole "absorbing our children' bit... 0_o ). 

 

 

Oh, I didn't mind they are specifficaly hostile to the Kith. I rather meant they are mostly thinking about their own fate. Fate of the mortals is at best secondary. This was my impression at least. And I don't blame them that much - they propably behave same way as most people would do. This propably only prove that they are not really as "divine" in their characteristics, as they were and are portraited by religion systems of Eora. From other hand, this is not that unique when we will look at real-life's examples of western or Near-East religious systems. If we inspect Greek or Roman Pantheons, or even Jahwe, we will find out that care for mortals might be part of their "job", but aside of this, they have all possible flaws of the mortals. Yes - they posses divine powers (and in case of Jahwe - he is also considered a "demiurge"), but they are usualy especially arrogant, jelaous and have a tendency for "absolute monarchy", so to speak.

 

And I think, while artificially created by Engwithans, Eora's gods fits this scheme quite nicely. Hence, they are not "evil" per se, but when it comes to personal characteristics, they do not differ so much from common mortal with have been given an extreme power - with makes them dangerous.

 

And same as mortals, aside of bad characteristics, they are of course capable of good ones too. Like Abydon protecting Engwithan legacy by the cost of his life.

 

But, in case of Deadfire's main plot, I had impression, they are mostly concerned about possiblity of revealance of their true nature, hence the lost of believers, and in further consequence - due to destruction of the Wheel - they may lost their lifes. And as I said, i don't blame them, from one hand. From other... Well, maybe this is because my far-eastern religious background, but I would expect more from beings aspiring for titles of true gods. I would expect them to be at least Bodhisattwas*.

 

 

 

 

Speaking of the absorbing of godlike... that's another thing I'm wondering about. On the one hand, it suggests they see the godlike as a backup plan. On the other hand, Ondera sounds like she has actual affection for her "children". Any thoughts? (off topic, pardon...). 

 

 

 

Personally I don't mind. I think we have already exploited the original topic. However, I have never dwelled deeper in this new one. Is there anything about aside of carreless notion by Magrana?

 

 

 

 

*Bodhisattwa - "the hero of enlightened attitude" - in Mahajana Buddhism a being with is not fully enlightened yet (is not a Buddha), but it has already disolved the illusion of "ego". Hence, it can make mistakes on the way, but it is always acting out from compassion and for the sake of all sentient beings. Often the name is also attached to people/beings with are only aspiring to such a state of mind, but they are not really Bodhisattwas yet - in the meaning described above.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Sherab

[Mirandel]

 

 

Oh, I didn't mind they are specifficaly hostile to the Kith. I rather meant they are mostly thinking about their own fate. Fate of the mortals is at best secondary.

At the very best! Woedica suggests to drop down the moon on Eora and comments that "people can be reborn and souls can be reforged, no big deal". Though, Eothas does care about mortals, hence, all the commotion.

 

I actually meant hell, as in, the state of being, not the place they refer to in Eora.

Then I have to ask, why do you think "in-between" is so terrible? Boring, may be, and there is no reincarnation (probably) awaiting for you, but not exactly a "faith you would not impose on your worst enemy".

Speaking or reincarnation... If you remember the quest with Pale Elves from PoE1, they were begging to stop the circle of reincarnation. And since Eothas (as all other gods) did not existed before the Wheel was created, he naturally does not know what was before or how to fix things - he did not created the Wheel, kith did. He simply destroys  what he sees as an evil mechanism, with a reasonable assumption that kith would be able to come up with something better.

 

 

Speaking of the absorbing of godlike... that's another thing I'm wondering about. On the one hand, it suggests they see the godlike as a backup plan. On the other hand, Ondera sounds like she has actual affection for her "children". Any thoughts? (off topic, pardon...).

 
"Children" as plural? Or do you mean only Tekehu? Because in Pallergina quest we see Ondra children without any support from her.

Considering godlikes are walking batteries for "gods" I'd say Tekehu is nothing more but a favorite cow for a farmer. He likes her and name her, but she will be eaten at the end nevertheless.

[Sherab]

 

 

I actually meant hell, as in, the state of being, not the place they refer to in Eora.

 

Then I have to ask, why do you think "in-between" is so terrible? Boring, may be, and there is no reincarnation (probably) awaiting for you, but not exactly a "faith you would not impose on your worst enemy".

 

Speaking or reincarnation... If you remember the quest with Pale Elves from PoE1, they were begging to stop the circle of reincarnation. And since Eothas (as all other gods) did not existed before the Wheel was created, he naturally does not know what was before or how to fix things - he did not created the Wheel, kith did. He simply destroys  what he sees as an evil mechanism, with a reasonable assumption that kith would be able to come up with something better.

 

 

 

 

Yes - I suppose that even without far-east religious background (however reincarnation by itself has strong far-east connotations) one can see that reincarnation can be see as something bad. And It seems this concept was understood at least by some writers of the first PoE, as Pale Elves' quest showed us.

 

I also don't remember any line that was claiming that In-between is such horrible place to be. It is rather empty - only other souls, Adra veins, and occasional Watchers - and beside of this - nothing. But I don't recall it as a "hellish" kind of a place - but obviously I haven't read all of the aviable texts.

 

Still, I think that in Deadfire writers assumed that destruction of the Wheel and stucking of souls in the In-between is something "bad", and that players generaly will see it like that too. Some of the players can be convinced byt Eothas' agenda, but the fact itself seems to be "wrong", so to speak. Well, I admitt, I wasn't so shocked by Eothas plan, but again - perhaps this is because of my real life's religion.

 

And for some reason it seems to be seen as "bad thing" also by all of the factions. Absolutely no one, aside of the Watcher (possibly), do not see Eothas' idea as something positive. Everyone immediately decide that the god should be stopped somehow.

 

 

 

Actualy, as far as I'm aware, we don't know what was first - the gods, or the Wheel. Still, same way as I do know some things about ancient Greece (to give any example), Eothas can know something about "pre-Wheel" Eora, even if he was "created" after the Wheel itself. And propably he do know quite a lot, but those lines were cut-off from the game.

 

 

And I wouldn't call Eothas' assumption "reasonable". For example, even after revealing the god's plans to them, all the factions agree that he should be stopped, but... at the same time, just after that, they start to argue who have the right to step on the shores of Ukaizo, and who's not. The Kith are far from unity, and there is every reason to doubt that even destruction of the Wheel will unite them, what other gods reasonably points-out. There is to many "maybe" and "perhaps" in Eothas' plan to call it reasonable, from my perspective. Not to mention all beings killed on his way to Ukaizo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking of the absorbing of godlike... that's another thing I'm wondering about. On the one hand, it suggests they see the godlike as a backup plan. On the other hand, Ondera sounds like she has actual affection for her "children". Any thoughts? (off topic, pardon...).

 

"Children" as plural? Or do you mean only Tekehu? Because in Pallergina quest we see Ondra children without any support from her.

 

Considering godlikes are walking batteries for "gods" I'd say Tekehu is nothing more but a favorite cow for a farmer. He likes her and name her, but she will be eaten at the end nevertheless.

 

 

 

Can you, friends, give me some reference on this? Because I remember only this carreless speech of Magrana. From who in the game I can learn more? Are those info a part of Pallegina's quest?

[Metaturtle]

 

Can you, friends, give me some reference on this? Because I remember only this carreless speech of Magrana. From who in the game I can learn more? Are those info a part of Pallegina's quest?

 

 

I think that statement is in regard to an NPC moon godlike of the final confrontation of Pallegina's quest since moon godlike are also Ondra's "children" along with marine godlike and that NPC certainly doesn't seem like he's getting any favors like Tekehu is.  If you are godlike or near the end of the game, at some point the gods will state that as a final resort, they can absorb all the souls of their children to hopefully gain enough power to to stop Eothas as a final act of desperation.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Metaturtle

[Sherab]

Ok, thx.

 

My main hero ported from first PoE never recruited Pallegina in Defiance Bay, hence I didn't even have the option to recruit her in Deadfire. This will gonna change in my upcoming playthrough - but this will still take some time - my Vailian dwarf tries to open Durgan's Battery right now.

 

Anyway, thx. for explanation.

[Mirandel]

Yes - I suppose that even without far-east religious background (however reincarnation by itself has strong far-east connotations) one can see that reincarnation can be see as something bad. And It seems this concept was understood at least by some writers of the first PoE, as Pale Elves' quest showed us.

Really? I kind of thought getting off from the Wheel of Saṃsāra is the whole point of Buddhism. But I am not a religious person, might mix it up with something else.

 

And for some reason it seems to be seen as "bad thing" also by all of the factions.

Well, what can you expect when you - without any explanation! - disrupt the order ot the things people used to? I think even the artificial origin of the "gods" still is not really known among kith. On the other hand, destruction from Eothas is a common knowledge (you can even help to stage the play about it). So, help to that murderer must be seen as something very bad.

 

Actualy, as far as I'm aware, we don't know what was first - the gods, or the Wheel.

True. But in order to create the "gods" Engwithian had to have enough of raw material, produced by the wheel. Plus, "gods" were supposed to be fed by the wheel and operate it. Would be logical to create the food source first. And was not creation of the gods the last act of Engwithian?

But, yes, it's still just a deduction.

 

Still, same way as I do know some things about ancient Greece (to give any example), Eothas can know something about "pre-Wheel" Eora, even if he was "created" after the Wheel itself. And propably he do know quite a lot, but those lines were cut-off from the game.

So hope for some DLC with cut off lines! I would love to hear more about those events.

 

The Kith are far from unity, and there is every reason to doubt that even destruction of the Wheel will unite them, what other gods reasonably points-out.

You do not need a unity of nations to create something. Nuclear bomb was created in one country, and people who barely familiar with electricity can still use Iphones all around the globe.

 

Engwithian were just one race, I think? So, all that is needed is for someone (one!) to find a solution. Quite a reasonable expectation

 

There is to many "maybe" and "perhaps" in Eothas' plan to call it reasonable, from my perspective. Not to mention all beings killed on his way to Ukaizo.

Agree. The plan itself is more "passionate" than "reasonable". Like when you see you can not do anything to change the order of things but the very order is so atrosious you have to break it!

Still, there is a very reasonable hope new order can be better (if eventually).

 

Can you, friends, give me some reference on this? Because I remember only this carreless speech of Magrana. From who in the game I can learn more? Are those info a part of Pallegina's quest?

Metaturtle has already answered, but in that quest there is a group of godlike pirates (!) and we see there right away 2 Moon godlikes - a captain and a simple sailor (very simple) without any special connection with Ondrah. Even more so, simpleton is killed right away (again, without a hint of Onrah interest to the evens).

Edited September 3, 2018 by Mirandel

[Sherab]

 

Yes - I suppose that even without far-east religious background (however reincarnation by itself has strong far-east connotations) one can see that reincarnation can be see as something bad. And It seems this concept was understood at least by some writers of the first PoE, as Pale Elves' quest showed us.

Really? I kind of thought getting off from the Wheel of Saṃsāra is the whole point of Buddhism. But I am not a religious person, might mix it up with something else.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, this was propably my bad English. It is as you wrote. At least in Therawada Buddhism. In Mahajana there is more focus on achieving full enlightement to be able to help others to achieve liberation from Samsara. But ultimately this is about making ourselfe and others free from suffering.

 

 

 

 

 

And for some reason it seems to be seen as "bad thing" also by all of the factions.

Well, what can you expect when you - without any explanation! - disrupt the order ot the things people used to? I think even the artificial origin of the "gods" still is not really known among kith. On the other hand, destruction from Eothas is a common knowledge (you can even help to stage the play about it). So, help to that murderer must be seen as something very bad.

 

 

 

Yes, you are right, of course. My point is, that in Deadfire there seems to not be any "faction" - nation, culture, etc. with would see the Wheel as something "bad", like Samsara in Buddhism (this is a little bit more complex, but I don't want to make big off-topics here). Hence a player is also supposed to see destruction of the Wheel as something bad. I mean, the event itself. But of course, at the same time, one can agree for this "small" evil, for greater good, if one will become convinced by Eothas agenda.

 

 

You do not need a unity of nations to create something. Nuclear bomb was created in one country, and people who barely familiar with electricity can still use Iphones all around the globe.

 

Engwithian were just one race, I think? So, all that is needed is for someone (one!) to find a solution. Quite a reasonable expectation

 

 

 

 

 

Well, yes and no, from my standpoint. Yes - you are right, there is no need to all people be united to invent something. In this case, re-invent, perhaps. Still, I wouldn't call reasonable to expect that US will invent nuclear bomb, and because of this expectation, to start II WW.

 

 

 

 

 

Can you, friends, give me some reference on this? Because I remember only this carreless speech of Magrana. From who in the game I can learn more? Are those info a part of Pallegina's quest?

Metaturtle has already answered, but in that quest there is a group of godlike pirates (!) and we see there right away 2 Moon godlikes - a captain and a simple sailor (very simple) without any special connection with Ondrah. Even more so, simpleton is killed right away (again, without a hint of Onrah interest to the evens).

 

 

 

Thanks. I simply had no access to this info in the game itself. This may be interesting part of the game to explore - I love to get deep into the (so called) lore. :D