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  1. I made a character to try and finish the game with as few kills as possible, and I got to 23, but after thinking about some of my kills and reading some comments by MadDemiurg I managed to reduce to the count to 12, PotD difficulty solo I was encouraged to try again by some ideas I had for the factions and the problem I had of not being able to reproduce my stealth through Ciliban Rilag, so I felt a do-over would be appropriate. (see http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78862-relative-pacifist-achievement/) I enjoy this approach to games so I hope anyone else out there like me will benefit from this. Thank you Obsidian for making this approach possible Although there are a few places where the dialogue does not match up, like telling the looters in Madhmr Bridge that I killed their two guards, or telling Saeda that I killed his parents as "Honest" options when I sneaked past them Any Class can do pacifist run, but I think only a Rogue can get to 12 kills due to skills and talents and a priest will follow closely behind (waiting on MadDemiurg for his thoughts on that ) I will give a few tips of stats, items, skills, talents, and how to navigate certain areas with a rogue if anyone else wants to try it. For me the joy was figuring it out, so the guide is nicely sectioned into areas which will allow you to only read the info you want and not spoil anything you want to figure out. Without trying to spoil anything however, I would strongly suggest in investing in benevolent and aggressive dispositions for Stormwall Gorge. Overall the kills for me were 4 in the starting encampment, 5 in Heritage Hill, and 3 when fighting Thaos and his two statues. Everything else can be avoided even if some of it is a bit cheese to get below 19. Purnisc does not count as a kill, so go ahead and complete the quest related to him that way. In terms of XP, you will have enough to get to level 11 but not 12. Before jumping down the pit I had 50050 xp and just before fighting Thaos I was at 60747 xp which included disarming three traps. So there is a little over 10 000 experience down there if you want to skip a quest you can calculate if you will make it to level 11 before fighting him. (Very Important, if you are still level 10 and want the last bit of experience to level up then walk slowly towards the area which triggers the last fight, a few meters before the conversation trigger you get awarded a large lump of xp) General Tips for how to deal with encounters: Switch Auto Attacks off, your character attacking from Shadowing Beyond will make you cry, and you want to avoid your summons killing anything. Generally speaking you can Stealth though everything. Even at 9 Stealth with sugar you can do the Temple in Gilded Vale and at 10 Stealth you can do Dyrford Crossing. Engagement works in a funny way, once an enemy has selected you for an attack it has to touch you to realise you are invisible. Due to this mechanic using Shadowing Beyond can be quite tricky since you have to make sure you have allowed all enemies to disengage so that no one is following you. Also once combat ends, so will Shadowing Beyond, so sometimes you need to use a figurine to lengthen combat so that you can run the full distance while invisible. Choice of Race: Wood Elf seems to be the ideal racial choice since I basically built a ranged rogue and I have a strategy for keeping my distance from Thaos. In my first game however I played a Human because I wanted max resolve and it worked out really well, so I am guessing any Human, Aumaua, Dwarf, or Elf will do just fine I would avoid Orlan since you are getting +2 to Per which you do not want and the racial bonuses do not help you. I would also avoid the Godlikes since any of their abilities is not as useful as being able to wear headgear which grants whisper of treason. Character Statistics: Might: Fairly important to kill Thaos quickly. Fee free to max it and drop Con if you want but I was fine at about 14. Constitution: can be dumped, but I was more comfortable at 10 for when I got hit by mobs inbetween casting a figurine and activating Shadowing Beyond, but if Thaos engages you, you are dead anyway so it is really up to you. Dexterity: For quicker actions and recovery I highly recommend it. I was fine at 16, not sure about the parameters for this one and how dropping or rasing it will affect your game. Perception: Dump it, you never need this stat for engaging or avoiding combat. Intelligence: Very important for the duration of Shadowing Beyond and there is a 19 Int conversation check (which you can easy get to with +4 int rest and buffs). I was fine at 16, but you can Max it if you want. Resolve: I am happy at 18, but after looking at the checks you can get away with 16 if you are happy to rely on rest & items and even food to boost you. The hardest conversation check is 20 in Twin Elms. Equipment: Armour: Angio’s Gambeson is easy to buy in Dyrwood Villiage, and extremely helpful with the movespeed buff spellbind. It has no cast-time or cooldown so you can use this and Shadowing Beyond basically at the same time (there is also some strange behaviour which allows you to cast the buff without going visible while in Shadowing Beyond). Rings: In both playthroughs I forgot about rings, so apparently you will be fine without them. Basically you don’t need Deflection or Saves because you are avoiding combat, even in the last fight you use charm, confusion , and figurines to keep the attention off you. So anything which gives stats or useful skills is awesome. Amulet/Cloak: Glanfathan Adraswen for the lore bonus. Sadly it is random loot and I did not know this, so I have no idea where I picked it up. If you did not find this you can still get a scroll which increases your lore in the upper floor of Hadret House for the last battle (see Skills). +3 Dex cloak from Deomenals should be a fine alternative, same as the rings in reasoning, try find something which increases stats or gives utility. I did not wear anything useful and did fine in my second run. Boots: Stealth Boots which can be bought from Doemenal merchant for rogue, or there is a pair open to any class in Raedric hold dungeon in the trapped container in the room which lets you up to the captain of the guard on day 20. I only swapped these out when I got boots of Speed for the final fight. Gloves: Gloves of Mechanics for most of the game and then Rotfinger Gloves for last battle. I consistently found the Gloves of mechanics in Lord Readric’s study on day 19 on all my games, and I do not think this run is possible without them. If you want to avoid killing Nedmar for the key you will need to have 6 mechanics (which you give points to asap), a rest bonus, and some lockpicks, this allows you to get past the door in time without compromising your stealth ability for other quests. Rotfinger gloves on the other hand is great for the debuffs to allow for deathblows vs Thaos and to slow him down to keep your distance. Weapon: I used fine hunting bow for most of the game until I picked up Lenas Er. I like the debuff the weapon applies and the fact that it has rending and fires quickly Headgear: I used Munacra Arret for the Whisper of Treason which works really well against the Headsman in the last fight. Belt: Same as rings, used belts which increased my stats in both games. Talents: There is no particular order for taking these (I think this was my order?), take Fast runner and Shadowing beyond asap and you should be fine: 1. Crippling Strike: (very useful, helped me a lot even in the last fight) 2. Fast Runner (very useful all the time, helps you keep your distance from Thaos too) 3. Escape: (Very limited application since it breaks stealth and it seems to have a long recovery time, but I would still take it for a few encounters where it works really well to get on the other side of enemies, soonest application for me was in Sewers where Shadowing Beyond was not enough) 4. Shadowing Beyond (essential obviously) 5. Deep Pockets (makes the last fight possible) 6. Reckless Assault (Helps with Accuracy and damage vs Thaos, same as Weapon focus) 7. Weapon Focus Peasant (helped I am sure, still missed 50% of my shots even with this). 8. Deep Wounds (also super good in last fight, won’t say no to free damage) 9. Marksman (since I am keeping my distance it makes it easier to hit Thaos) 10. Finishing Blow ( Very useful: In combination with deathblows I got 88 damage on Thaos with this skill. I find Thaos hard to hit and the added accuracy on this skill makes it easier to finish him off. Used it twice in a row when he was badly wounded with the rotfinger debuff and killed him) 11. Deathblows: Makes the most of the Rotfinger Gloves’ debuff. Envenomed Strike looks tempting, but I really wanted to max out on my accuracy. Skills: Stealth: 9 (+Rest +Boots can take you to 12) Lore: 7 (+ Hylea Boon & Glanfathan Adraswen will give you to 10, or you can use a scroll) Mechanics: 6 (+1 from rest and +2 from Gloves of Mechanics gives you 9) Choosing a background which gives you stealth is highly favoured in my opinion: Dissident was my choice in both games. Invest in stealth and mechanics till both a 4. Raise Mechanics to 6, Invest in stealth every level until you are level 8. Then invest in Lore until you get to level 11. At level 8 I had a base of 9 Stealth, 6 Mechanics, and 3 Lore which is just enough to get though Cliaban Rilag and it is the max level you can be for this area on a pacifists run. Because of the skills a rogue starts with favours this I am unsure of whether you can avoid this fight with another class. I never found a scroll which increases my stealth, so if anyone knows of a spawn point that would really help. Cliaban Rilag is the hardest stealth area and you need 12 stealth, for everything else you need 10 stealth. It is a huge investment for those extra two points, so a scroll would really help you pass that one area and allow other classes to get through. In terms of Lore I would love to know where Glanfathan Adraswen spawns, but I used a Lore scroll for my fight with Thaos my second time around and it lasted long enough. The Lore scroll can be found in the upper levels of the Hadret house in a room the far left. It is random loot and I found mine on Day 55: 11 Preestu Mechanics suffered a bit in my second playthough, but I was fine with these numbers and a large amount of lockpicks. You absolutely need the gloves of mechanics since the situations where you need the skill are too spread out to rely on a scroll. Quests and Areas: Here is a list of the quests I did Main Quests: Encampment/Starting Area -Thank you MadDemiurg Fairly simple area but with few unexpected ways in which you can avoid kills. Loot everything and sell to Heodan before going to the wolves (feel free to strip Calista since you do not need her to fight). Calista has no stealth so do the sneaking on your own. Sneak past the wolves and gra the berries, immediately go into stealth once conversation ends and hide Calista in the corner. Stealth all the way to the water skin for her sake and once you click on it she will appear next to you at the stream for combat. You can avoid killing the first two Glanfathan by using Calista to stall them and running away. Combat will end when she is knocked out even though it does not seem like it, so you can sneak past the three Glanfathan who are mid-way. The Final 4 Glanfathan who surrounds Heodan you have to kill. I found it easy flanking and focusing the same target with two rogues. Inside the cave I disarmed some of the floor tiles for a bit of extra xp to clear the way. Send Calista ahead to engage the two spiders which block your way and run past the entrance they block into the room to your right. Either keep sending her into te spiders or send her into the traps until her portrait disappears and sneak out of the cave. Caed Nua & Maerwald (at Level 3) – Thank you knownastherat You want 4 mechanics and 4 stealth for this (think I had 5 stealth) Strategy for getting past the shades: Sneak to the door, conversation will break stealth, so summon Animat quite close to the shade approaching (it tended to tag me) close the door and run to the stairs. Combat should end once Animat is dead. Sneak Past Spiders & Rest. For Mearwald you are lucky that he gets stuck behind his blights so he is really slow. Run out of the room once combat starts and summon Animat in the door to get them to swap to engaging it. Hide yourself in the far corner by the stairs to try avoid engagement. It is tricky not to have them loose interest while also pulling the beetles or spiders to the middle of the room, but it is possible, just practice. Once Mearwald is out of his room room run past them and close the door and hide in the corner. Make sure Auto-attacks are switched off so you do not hit any of them and get the kill. Defiance Bay: The Three Factions – Thank you Kaigen42 The Dozens has an easy 1st quest which is bloodless. The Doemenals need to be joined via Ondra’s Gift. Go to the warehouse for the delivery quest. Choose the option to kill him for Danna once your delivery is complete, but instead of attacking use Shadowing Beyond and go hide. The Doemenals will clear the warehouse for you for zero kills. Now you can get information about the letter and collect the diamond without any kills. The second quest for the Doemenals is the logical choice from here, since it only involves one kill, but you can get past it for zero kills: Agree to side with either Doemenals or Dozens and then attack someone close to the door. Use Shadowing beyond and figurine for a pull and wait by the door for combat to end. You have now burned all your bridges and Lady Webb will give you the invitation you need. Sanatorium Fairly easy, this is where Angio’s Gambeson comes in. Use the +4 Int rest. Food if you want for +2Int. The trick to this area is extending combat for long enough so you can get out. I active my speed buff and rand to the side and cast a figurine and activated Shadowing beyond asap to run away. The reason for the figurine is that if you just used Shadowing beyond straight away combat would end before you are even out of the north ward, which will end Shadowing Beyond’s effect, the figurine helps you extend combat for long enough to run all the way out. While I am here I usually also do the ‘kill’ for the necromancer in the Sewers. Since you do not kill the animancer it does not count, and I pull the Witch thing to the guards or a flesh golem to kill for me. Heritage Hill Fairly easy area, just stealth well and use sugar. A few notes though: On the first level of Heritage Hill tower it is impossible to sneak past to the stairs, and once you trigger combat it will not end until you kill the enemies involved. I asked whether this infinite combat loop is intended and it seems like it is: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79710-heritage-hill-tower-level-1-infinite-combat-can-devs-please-respond-whether-this-is-intentional/ When coming down from level 3, the conversation will break stealth for the transition, so go down one level in order to avoid the infitie combat drawing more enemies on level 1. You will attract a mob, but use a stealth boost and Shaowing beyond and cancel engagements as needed. Can be tricky, but very do-able. Then Stealth down to level one. In order to get the Adra Beetle you need to get the key. Go into the manor and you do not need to stealth. Trigger combat and summon shades or Wood Beetles close to the door on the left which contains the key, and use the summons to pull them to the exit. Be careful to keep them all engaged. Use escape to jump over if needed and you will probably need Shadowing Beyond to get to the key. Combat will end with them all still near the exit, which is just enough time for you to grab the key before they get back, and you can use your 2nd Shadowing Beyond to exit. Once the tower is deactivated the way to the crypt will be clear. Cliaban Rilag Very simple, you can sneak past quite a lot and use Shadowing Beyond to get to the room with the sporelings. You might need a figurine to extend combat (see Sanatorium) and make sure the ooze does not perma-aggro by not disengaging him. To get through the rest you will need Mechanics: 8 = 6 + 2 (Gloves of Mechanics) and bring a lot of lockpicks. Stealth: 12: 9 + 2 (Boots) + 1 (Resting Bonus) The stealth will get you through the sporelings with some sugar, and the 8 mechanics with some lockpicks will get you through the 2nd level. To have this balance of skills by level 8 I think you need to play Rogue since there is no more xp to level up to 9 (see skills) Stormwall Gorge (Ambush) - Thank you Xaratas If you have 2 Aggressive and 2 Benevolent and a Dungeon in your Stronghold you can avoid this fight Pleasing the Gods I want Hylea’s Boon for the Lore and it is super easy to go and talk to the Sky Dragon and tell her she may have her young there. I also highly recommend Rymrgand. Pray to him to get the shard. Sneak into NoonFrost (mechanics rest bonus for 9 total if you want to save lockpics and disarm the traps) and stick to the left and it is super easy to reach the breach without detection. Give them the shard so that they all leave. Now you can rescue the prisoner and loot the place. If you have 19 Intelligence you can convince Rymrgand that it was a good idea and you get loads of quest xp. Down the Pit (the final Dungeon) The first area is full of traps so you will need a few tries to figure out a safe route. Go left and engage the Spectre with a figurine. Shadow Beyond and run with Speed buff. You want to go through the door by the spectre on the left and then turn right avoiding the trap and then turn right again past the animats. You might need 2 Shadowing Beyonds if you were not lucky enough to get boots of speed before this. Feel free to rest there are plenty of camping supplies and you need minimal resources for the next area. In Sun and Shadow you should find a pair of boots of speed. Very simple to get through, you can simply escape with Shadowing Beyond for the first Drake, and for the 2nd one I use shades to pull the mob down the stairs opposite the door. Getting them to the bottom of that staircase is enough time to go through the door. Defeating Thaos Equip 5x Confusion Scrolls, 10x Maelstrom Scrolls, 1x Adra Beetle, 1x Obsidian Lamp, 5x War Paint (or more scrolls). Wait for the Judge to get pulled towards you a bit. Shadowing Beyond to escape. Summon Adra Beetle. Hit The Headsman with Whisper of Treason. Join battle with scrolls and send beetle in for his AoE. Keep your Beetle between you & Thaos and keep an eye on the charm/confusion durations. I basically used MadDemiurg’s video as a guide as to how to fight him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIDjoea4aHY Other Areas: Lighthouse – Thanks to knownastherat You can do this at level 4 and you do not really need to sneak. To go up is fairly easy, stick to the wall on the left for minimal aggro, use Shadowing beyond the moment combat starts. Through the door and close it behind you. Getting out is far more tricky. I like to use stealth so I have some time to position myself before combat, and the way the enemies behave differs a lot between attempts. You might be able to use escape, but take note that there is a bug with the door which appears open but it is actually closed. You need to summon something, I used Wood Beetles, in order to hold enemy aggro while you position yourself at the exit with Shadowing Beyond. Combat will end with them killing the bettles at the staircase giving you enough time to get out. Dyrford Crossing & Skaen Temple You can stealth to get the egg, and you need 10 stealth + sugar to do the troll (use resting bonus if needed) For Skaen Temple, you can open the way quite easily with enough stealth, but will need to use Shadowing Beyond to escape the encounter and sneak back to get down. I recommend getting a rest to boost mechanics to 9 with gloves with a base of 6 and bring like 18 lockpicks. Fairly easy to get through, you cannot sneak past all of the guards, so in the room just before the leader you will need to use Shadowing Beyond to get into the door. After the conversation they all go friendly and you can loot the place. Northweald Fairly easy area with two quests you can do. Dungeon helps you here once again with resolving the stalemate. Very Importantly, the Stealgar by the body in the north will lock you into infinite combat if you did not receive the quest “Hunter Brother” from Hearthsong. I tested this extensively, and it is very important to get the quest before coming here to avoid kills. I lied in the hearing for the bow. Endless Paths Seems a bit silly to do this, but I was curious: It would appear that if you have Boots of Speed and 12 Stealth and some scrolls, that you can complete the endless paths on a pacifist run without worrying about your kill count, only 18 in total, 19 if you kill the Dragon Hunter. It is worth noting that you can get though 10 of the levels without shadowing beyond or combat, just good stealth and speed Not much in it in terms of items so it would be a bit pointless. I did not explore how accessible various treasures are but you will get the dragon's stash at least. 50865xp before I started, 64467xp after helping the dragon, so about 14 000 xp in the run. Here are my findings for the Endless Paths: Levels: 1: 0 kills 2: 0 Kills 3: 0 Kills 4: 0 Kills 5: 1 Kill (Drake) 6: 2 Kills (2 Dargul in room across the bridge) 7: 0 Kills 8: 0 Kills 9: 0 Kills 10: 0 Kills (12 Stealth, boots of speed and sugar, and understanding transitions is key) 11: 0 Kills 12: 0 Kills 13: 15 Kills ( So much fun! Cleared a room solo on level 11 PotD which I struggled with as a Party on Hard ) 14: 0 Kills (Resolve 20 and Int 17 Needed) 15: 0 Kills (Easy sneak and made a deal with the Dragon) Getting from level 3-8 is definitively the hardest because of all the resources those levels need to get though, and you cannot use the main staircase on level 5. Levels you can bypass without Shadowing beyond, but up to 12 stealth, sugar, and boots of speed: 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14 Some you needs less stealth, or as the case is in level 12 no stealth. Quite simple. Levle 8: you will aggro the Vampyr on the throne when you go down, but just give them a summon and run away. Don't even need SB. Level 9: Got though the spiky room, and use sugar, fast boots and 12 speed. For getting past the Vithrack and the Spiders you need to get as close to the petrify trap as possible to disarm it halfway and and stick to the bottom wall of the passage. Level 10. Same as 9 sugar et al. Shades in the 1st room wont detect you. The stairs are blocked by spiders but you can transition down without touching them. You just need to remember that you character takes a few steps while thhe screen fades to black so you need to give him/her the room to do that so you do not start combat. Level 11 is another master staircase I needed a mechanics scroll to get through. I know there is a spawn point for one in Doemenal Mansion on the second floor in the room right by the staircase. Levels you need Shadowing Beyond and a figurine pull. 4, 7 Level 4 is a pain, and you need to get the seal in the room to the South. You probably will need escape, 2-3 Shadowing Beyonds, and a lot of figurines to pull, and any speed boosts you can make use of. Also helpful to boost Int. Level 7 you can de-activate every shrine and get the key, mostly just with stealth and fast boots. Earth blight room you need to use a figurine or a SB , and you cannot do the Rain Blight Room, which is fine because of SB down the the next level anyway and the spawn is not a problem. Levels that need combat: 5, 6, 13 Level 5 is pretty easy. do not wear boots of speed and then you can pull the drake away from the Xaruips into the little room next to the pool. You need to kill him for combat to end. Level 6 is a pain as well, you can get the seal on the left by hugging the wall once you are in the room. The seal on the other side of the bridge I also doubt is possible with a full sneak, but observed that only 2 Dargul are in visual range of the one corner. Killed them and used SB to escape combat and sneaked back in. To go down you will need SB since putting the seals in the door breaks stealth (11 stealth needed) Level 13 is pretty Straightforward. Killing animats in the room the the right is easy enough and then the ghost appears. Then using a figurine to extend combat and running to the room with all the Cean Gwla, cast confusion from stealth, use Adra Beetle and maelstrom. Spirit 2 appears. SB back to main door and make sure you have boots of speed and sugar and 12 stealth to go down to 14.
  2. Can Admin Delete? Somehow I double posted? (Browser crash) See this one http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79761-12-kill-run-class-build-and-guide/
  3. This one might be a little goofy, but here goes: I love the nonlethal approach. I explicitly try to kill as few things as I possibly can whenever I have a realistic nonlethal option for dispatching enemies in games, and I feel the highest vindication whenever the game, world or characters reacts to those actions. These options are common across many shooter/FPS hybrids--Deus Ex, Dishonored, Alpha Protocol, etc. But after recently finishing Dishonored it occurred to me that I'd never seen this option in any Infinity Engine RPGs or really any pure Western RPGs that I could think of at the time, and I began to wonder why not? Most tabletop RPGs, D&D included, have at least a short barely-referenced sidebar on how to deal nonlethal damage and knock somebody out in a fight, why has this never been an option in the classic or modern pure western RPG? Sure it's a bit silly, since most of what you're cutting down are nameless orcs, thugs, kobolds, and other miscreant cannon fodder, but I've always believed the mark of a true hero is restraint: Just look at Batman. It would be nice to have a game where my diplomat knows some martial arts focused strictly on rendering opponents unconscious when things get hairy, I would prefer to walk away like a smug badass saying "I warned them" when negotiations fail. Usually, instead I just shake my head and sigh mournfully at the lives wasted this day, because the option to do anything but set them on fire isn't ever present. Granted, I eventually become desensitized and then when negotiations fail I just cackle like a maniac as I introduce them to a colleague of mine: Doctor Force Lightning, Ph.D. in Murder From a development standpoint, adding in options like these seem pretty trivial, depending on how deep you wanted the system to be. A good 90% of it would be minor subsystems in the game logic--a bool or two here, a different value there--I'm not asking for much, just a little confirmation that I left those dumb thugs on the street battered, bloody, but still breathing. It's not like anyone's going to carefully examine the character model and check to make sure they're using the flat-edge of the blade, so unique animations aren't really necessary I'd say. Don't suppose there's anyone out there who shares my sentiment?
  4. So yeah- it mostly derives from the idea, that our group of heroes shouldn't be "godlike" and able to cut down enemy armies in a single sweep. In order to survive I believe we should concentrate on wide range of trickery and talking our way out of the though situations (pacifist playthrough included). It's easier to implement in populated areas like towns, but what about dungeons and wilderness? Well, let's say that we have an option to avoid (and gain exp as well) enemy pack, by blocking the road for example (so they can't reach us and are trapped) and setting the floor on fire- in order to do this, we would need for example a very strong team member to block the road and a mage with w fireball spell. It's all contextual action- if we don't have a teammate with high enough strenght and the second one with the fire spell- we can't carry out the mentioned idea and need to resolve to standard fight or other trickery. Or healing the wounded traveler (heal spell necessary) and convincing to go in some direction (high speach or lie) and thus making a bait for a pack of enemies, so we can slip unnoticed out of the tough situation. Not only it would "spicy up" the dungeons exploration, but gave the reason to invest points in some skills, that be unused (or used less) if concentrating on the fighting ones only. What do you think?
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