Solonik

More forums tend to dilute the substance in many cases. I think there are enough, but I literally don't go out of this one. Paced as it is, I really think if this and the technical board was combined, it wouldn't be detrimental. In short, I don't see the point.

For me, the text in planescape torment did all I wanted. As far as emoticons or even the portraits changing like in japanese games, well, I have never actually played a real japanese rpg, but I have played some flash games and that was only appropriate for a silly (way silly, not good silly) storyline. No need for over-the-top emotions imo.

I understand that. Another option is not to make them quests at all. For example, you can have a dangerous area where the player is NOT told to go by anyone, but can go if he chooses. Boom "filler quest." Or he can choose to hunt certain monsters to sell their fur to shop keepers, but is not given this as a quest by anyone, etc.

There is nothing like running into the Brotherhood of Steel and an Enclave squad opening up on each other in full gear, or watching the Enclave wipe out lowly bandits. I think S.T.A.L.K.E.R: Clear Sky did it better than any other game before though. The factions had the following characteristics, affected by innate, random, and player action factors: 1. Territory controlled - influenced their funding (could trade / be supplied better). 2. Funding - how well they could equip their squads, how well items were priced in their stores / if they had high end gear (also depended on your faction standing), etc. 3. Number of members - starting number + variable or set "respawn rate" and affected by equipment / territory controlled / number of people who recently died. All factions also had different relationships with other factions. If these relationships could be affected by the player, all the better. Factions made the world feel far more alive - lines constantly changed, fortresses and points were taken over by warring groups, and were either safe or not for you depending on which one you were aligned with / pissed off (you didn't have to join any at all, if you didn't want to). I imagine this would make every replay unique, especially if factions were present through out the game. Oh, and for God's sake, if there is an elite vs elite battle and you walk in at level 1, make the winner keep you from looting all the gear. They can either pick it up, wait for back up, or detonate it. Thoughts? (edit: Other than that I should making threads, this was the last one, I promise!) edit 2: Have factions take over your stronghold and fight back and forth across it / destroy anything in it in the process while you can't defend it / they aren't aligned with you. Whereas if they are aligned with you, one faction can help you hold it when they enemy is clear. Would make a lot of players hilariously mad.

I just wonder how people felt about quests that were clearly just made to fill up empty space / help you level / get items? I personally don't mind them as long as: 1. It's fairly clear what they are, so you don't feel obligated to do them. 2. Combat ones are presented in the form of dungeons that respawn creatures (better yet, if these "respawns" have a clear reason - e.g. enemies coming to take over the land and retaking a fort, a necromancer raising the dead in a crypt, etc. If you can permanently end some of these respawns on you choose to do so by killing/destroying the source, all the better for realism). 3. Can't really think of noncombat ones that can be enjoyable without thought - go get "x' and bring it to "y" was never fun. Sure, it's ok in main quests where the NPC realistically can't get across a dangerous area or something, but then it's almost a combat quest anyway. Well, that's my .05 rant.

I will definitely try BG2 at some point then! I agree with you as well - it probably is pretty replayable, but the thing is - I don't remember a single location. I think there was a city named Tula, and the only reason I remember that is because there was major production city called that in the USSR and it was a production city, I think. As far as NPCs - some girl followed me and got sad and wanted magic water not to be sad. This was the extent of her character. Then there was an evil elf from the tree that decided to be my friend. I am not sure why. They really wasted arrows though, so I gave them magic swords and necromancer armor (of some sort - I think it drained health from opponents, or something). I did find the first 30 minutes of the game really compelling though, and then I just didn't know what was going on. I killed some zombies for someone, did something in the north, fought some golems in ruins, went to some island, killed some pirated, paid for a ship, there was a ghost in there somewhere, helped some beastmen defend themselves from hunters for some reason...it's all a blur. ------------- @Razsius - how dare you!? Or at least, that would be my response, theoretically. Point-by-point time, I guess: "I really don't understand why everyone seems to love Planescape. " Because it's one of the few games that makes you think, if you pay attention to it. Think about yourself, think about what it takes to become someone. Some say that's taking it way too seriously, and I disagree. ""Why am I everyone's runner again?" Because you chose to be, because you wanted the crap xp, because that's what games are for, right? Grinding for xp? Except this one is not, which is why we love it. "Delivering flyers" Didn't he just offer you some coin (JINK - which reminds me, dat lingo!) for it? I didn't do it. "stone warrior's question only to find him a worse trainer then the one in the previous zone" You had the options right there. Also, you don't have to do anything in the Festhall, I don't think, except maybe get your stuff from your room. "getting a guy's outfit for a costume party" I guess you like being a ***** for the wealthy? Didn't do this one either. SPOILERSSSS As far as good quests - Mebbeth's quests come to mind. You hate them if you treat them like a go-getter quest, you love them, if you actually think about the point they are making. Or raiding your own tomb. Or Cry for Trees guy - his quest actually makes a very interesting point. These points is what made the game. As far as combat being horrible - I don't see it as being any worse than any other such game. It's well animated, each character has unique moves. Why you hatin? "Wait, I made a weapon to kill *myself* because...? I'm looking for my mortality so I can... what? Mr. I Think of Fire 100% of the Time follows me because...?" These actually all have very good answers. Also, you didn't have to make that weapon, or go in that tower. Nor do you have to be friends with fire boy. You can always just get what you need and kill him on the spot. Hell, it might not even be a bad idea... "Next, we have companions who come equipped with such riveting banter involving Morte staring at Annah's tail, Annah complaining about Grace and Morte telling me to dump Mr. Human Torch (aka Ignus)" Some of it was pretty clever. In fact, a lot of it was pretty clever. Also, the characters will talk a lot more as the game goes on. If you just hit curst, you probably didn't even start enjoying the game. The Hive is kind of an introduction. I actually put the game down twice before I got out of the Mortuary, but I am really glad I picked it up again. "because Chris Avellone has a hand in this game they have to talk to you every *single* time you enter a new room. " You go too far! Oh, and you didn't have to go to the maze either, unless you wanted another spell and stuff for the cube, which you could dump. Though he also said funny things, sometimes. "Why should I care about Deionarra's love again?" You shouldn't if you don't want to - it's also explained clearly, except you already missed it since you are in Curst. If you want spoilers, I will tell you her story, because I actually remember it, whereas I can't even remember who the BG characters you listed are.

@Horma: I have not, although everyone who has played both says the same thing as you. If it's the same magnitude of difference as there is between FO1 and FO2, then BG2 will definitely be worth it. I liked PST for the writing, not the gameplay, though I did like the gameplay. The writing is what's memorable to me. I want to be clear about that, so I am not putting down other games in aspects in which they were pretty good. As far as BG - a lot of people love it an are offended by my opinion on it. I really did feel like I tried to enjoy it and hoped it would get better the whole game, but it just didn't, for me. To me, an RPG is a story first and foremost. If it manages to teach me something, all the better. BG felt so standard, so painfully trite. I tried talking to characters, I tried paying attention to the world, but I just didn't care. As far as weapons and skills - it seemed like some boring, natural progression of picking up whatever had more damage - so even the gameplay didn't feel interesting. I realize I sound like a troll, but I hope I don't fully come of that way, because I mean what I say and actually do feel bad to talk that way about something people like, especially since people who created it may see this forum. In the end, I think by the time I played BG, it just felt like every other game, ever. I really don't think PST is meant to have any replay value tbh. edit: I guess I should say this - I am not a gamer. I play games, and I don't have anything against gamers, but I have played D&D once in my life. I play maybe 5% of the major PC games that come out (dont own consoles at all), and don't have a single game installed on my computer atm. Most games, to me, are a way to pass time when I am being lazy, not something I particularly look forward to or think about. PST was just ****ing magical to me, for a lack of a better word. And again, I am not out to offend anyone, though I realize that my first post can offend people - I just wanted to stress how much PST stands out to me, personally.

I haven't played either, ever, so I wouldn't know what the type would be, as I am sure you are not going for just "Japanese." Why do you ask?

I saw your reply before watching the video and didn't expect to actually laugh at the video...but then I did.

In the end, what made PTS "mature" for me is that each character had a REALISTIC agenda and that the author clearly paid attention to how things work in the real world (irl, yo).

I personally played early fighter to mage the two times I played it (once as a kid, once as an adult - it's the only game I have replayed in my life) - I just couldn't stand the limited dialogue options of not having maximum wisdom / intelligence. I will agree that in terms of replayability value, PTS loses to FO2 hands down. Not only because of what you mentioned, but also because of the relatively linear story line. I was actually going to mention it in my post, but I feel like PTS couldn't have been what it was if it was an open world. Now more open? Maybe. As open as fallout? Probably not / not without an amazing amount of resources put into balancing and such. So, in short, I agree with you completely, but I feel that FO2 in no way compares to PTS, and I LOVE FO2.

Something I don't really notice in RPGs that often is *the* real reason to have a party / join a faction / have powerful friends. This real reason is that people generally stay away from you if they "know who you are," not because they are scared of you personally, but because they know that SOMEONE will come if something should happen to you. On the contrary, factions often have enemies and are viewed in a certain way. Yet you rarely see this executed. At best it's something like "If you join x faction, you get a discount at their store / faction y hates you (if that)." Yet, these could have far more significant implications. On another, related note, there is often a strong incentive not to walk around alone at night in real life. If you are alone, you are much easier to manage for muggers / rapists / etc. In a third world country, you might get hit over the back of the head with a brick for your wallet, and that's that. Yet "ambushing" 2-3 people is exponentially harder than doing it to one person, and raises the chance of having to fight at all. In other words, taking out one person is FAR safer than taking on a group. Yet this fact is almost never accounted for in games. Just wanted to throw that out there.

...I am real happy for you and ima let you finish, but Planescape: Torment was the best game of all time. That's really the essence of this post. I have played all of these games, sans Ice Wind Dale (because I just couldn't bring myself to do it after Baldur's Gate), and they simply do not compare, despite being great in their own right. Planescape: Torment was the best of the best. I want to take this game by game. Fallout was, admittedly, great. Well, Fallout 2 - I sort of ran through Fallout 1 without really knowing/caring what's going on. Something about evil mutants. In FO2, I loved that you really could go anywhere you wanted, and there was nothing keeping you from getting smoked by Power Armor clad soldiers in the first 5 minutes in the game. That, and you could steal that sniper machine-gun thing. It didn't even mess with the balance since you didn't really have the skills to use it / the ammo for it. But the fact that you could get it made the world feel that much more realistic, considering how much of a role luck plays in the real world. The game also did a good job of being atmospheric and the quests seemed to have at least some point. In most games, you do not give a **** about the quest / the characters. There was also an atmosphere of mystery sometimes - you really wondered where that crashed enclave VTOL Osprey-looking craft came from, etc. The NPCs were more interesting that all of the other games listed here, but I still don't really remember any of them other than Vic. Speaking of which, going through the whole slaver thing made him seem that much more valuable. Also, hobo-phase: There is nothing like getting smoked by some random drug-dealing punks in the first "city" of the game. Games are ruined when you develop super powers too quickly. It's priceless when the "common" enemies actually present a real threat for a while, and the easiest solution isn't to just blast them. Finally, the ending really did feel epic. Arcanum: I am not sure what happened here, but I simply did not find the game interesting. At first, I was fascinated by the idea of mixing tech with magic and thought it was really clever. Loved all the little notes about how machinery stops behaving according to the laws of physics, etc. But then, the game just felt empty, despite the numerous locations. They just weren't interesting. The combat was uneventful - I don't remember a single opponent, whereas the ones from fallout feel distinct. All I remember is that golems broke my sword, so I got some magic sword. My whole strategy, the whole game, was to run around and bash things with my magic sword. I got some party members, but I don't remember any of them, they ran out of arrows fast, so I gave them magic swords. We happily bashed away, not a single one of them said anything memorable. I learned to teleport around, so I teleported and bashedthings more. I do remember the exiled king - he had a story. I wanted to know more / wanted to see if anything can be done about helping him and went back to "his" town/kingdom, but there was nothing. So I bashed more things with my magic sword. Then there was a dragon or a necromancer, or something, it was sleeping in some magic shell or some such. I bashed it with my sword. I don't remember what happened after. That's how I remember arcanum. I don't even do drugs and did really wanted to like the game. Baldur's Gate: My only explanation for people liking it is that they played it as a kid. Nothing wrong with that - I wouldn't recommend Quest for Glory to anyone over 12, but it was a great game. On the other hand, most of the characters weren't memorable (I remember the necromancer and the early thief girl - though I never quite got what her story was), and even the ones who were had very little dialogue. Combat was pretty boring. Eventually I got bored and dumped my party. Then I snuck around and backstabbed everyone, all the way to the end of the game. Actually, I don't think I ever finished. I got back to the library and was supposed to do something there, and there were some side quests before you go underground, and there was some drama going on, but the result was utter apathy. PLANESCAPE: TORMENT: I wrote many points here, but then I realized nothing can do this game justice. It was the only game that was more than a game or a book - it truly made me learn a lot about myself / the real world in a way that no other book/game/movie has since or before. Everything else was icing on the cake: every character was memorable, every faction mattered, every quest had a point, items had a story you cared about, the music was great, so were the animations. Still, the writing is what made this the best game of all time for me. Not the story itself, but the ideas presented through the characters - Mebbeth (/Ravel) on ritual (habits / things we get used to), Dakkon on will, the various ways to lead life / potential mental illnesses (as shown through the incarnations), power structures - factions, the Dabbus who were virtually defenseless, yet no one dared touch, etc. I can't even put it into words. As such, I almost want to delete everything I wrote because it sounds like a lot of hate for the other games, which I actually liked. It's just that nothing comes close, and I hope the new game is more of the same.