Stun

Define "very useful". Sure you can. A ranged Rogue can dump his Constitution to 3 without painful repercussions.

^admit you're wrong Gromnir. Or, simply Retreat behind silly gifs and starwars clips. It's up to you.

What's that have to do with anything? You claimed he dismissed the attributes as meaningless. But he DID NOT. In fact, he focused on the fact that they all did something, and that they were designed to simply augment specific combat roles, rather than define them, which means when you're building a character, you CAN and probably SHOULD Dump whatever stats don't apply to your character's combat role.

Just read the review again. Nope he did not say that they're meaningless. Instead, he said this: ^ As you can see, Nowhere does he say they're meaningless. In fact, he doesn't even imply that they're meaningless, because doing so would have changed his argument considerably. He'd no longer be able to argue, as he does in the second paragraph there, about choosing specific attributes for "combat duty" (ie. combat roles...like Tank and ranged power) Imagine that, Gromnir. Coming on here and trying to combat perceived "misinformation" by employing.....Actual misinformation. Typical of you. PS: I can dump Constitution on my Rogue without suffering "build pain", can't you?

Why are we arbitrarily limiting this discussion to specific combat scenarios? In the IE games, the function of the 6 attributes goes beyond combat, doesn't it. As it stands, dumping your Mage's wisdom to 3 means you're taking a hit to your lore score. Dumping your Charisma to 3 means you're going to have to pay more for stuff in shops. And dumping your strength to 3 means your carry weight will take a hit (and in the case of BG2, your weapon options will be limited). Of course, this doesn't mean they're not dump stats (because they still friggin are) But it DOES mean that they're about as functionally useful for a Mage in the IE games as Constitution, Resolve and Perception are for a Wizard in PoE.

From the Codex review: Is this nothing more than mad ranting? Or is it the friggin Truth? Even before development of PoE began, Certain Developers from Obsidian were criticizing the attribute system in the IE games, accurately pointing out that those games had dump stats. They told us what we all already knew: that Every class can safely dump at least half of those stats without fear of crippling their builds. They Swore to fix this design flaw in PoE. They promised us No. More. Dump. Stats. Fast forward to 2015. And what a surprise. A broken promise. There are indeed Dump stats in this game. The situation is no different than it was in the IE games. So why should PoE get a pass here? Why shouldn't we level the same criticism and scorn towards its attribute system?

In other words, you're engaging in a completely pointless exercise too.

You fancy yourself an authority figure.... spouting orders to people, demanding that they stop posting and act more like you. How silly. Hey Faux Moderator, I have a question. This thread reached the 500 post count limit quite a while ago. Why haven't closed it yet? Oh, that's right. I forgot, you're not a f*cking moderator. That's why.

This is a lie. His posts consume you and drive your emotions. And everyone here sees that.

New to the internet, are we? Ok, you'll soon learn that the alternatives (Echo chambers) are very, very rare in cyberspace. They practically don't exist. If I had to pinpoint the cause of this "multiple viewpoints" phenomenon, I'd say that the vocal expression of one opinion typically invites its polar opposite to surface. I'd even go so far as to say that there's an element of provocation going on here. A clearly observable cause and effect. Not that misunderstanding this specific phenomenon constitutes an ignorance of human nature or the internet, or whatever. It doesn't. At all. I mean really. Here's this entire thread in a nutshell: "this is a terrible game!" "You're a retard! this is a great game! "It sucks!" "Bullsh*t! it's awesome!" "No!" "Yes!" ...For about 36 pages. So yes. "WHY?" is indeed a good question to ask.... to both sides.

It doesn't? Ok, have it your way. I can prove that Gromnir wants more D&D in PoE. And therefore it's silly that he's arguing with Stun and Luckmann, since he's in total agreement with them. Then why did you spout it?

Sure it is. Because claiming that we want more D&D is a blanket generalization that encompasses a hell of a lot more than simply wanting Hard counters and death spells. It also includes things like: wanting to force XP penalties on item enchantment sessions; Wanting to incorporate material component requirements on every wizard spell; wanting strict behavior codes placed on Paladins and Monks; and a bunch of other things that NO ONE HERE HAS SAID THEY WANTED. Perhaps if Gromnir had shown a little more intelligence and a little less crap debating skills and said something more like this instead: "yes, folks here want more D&D-based Hard counters and insta-kills", this discussion would have probably died down about a page later, or shortly after someone came into the thread to tell Gromnir to kindly speak for himself.

Not following. Saying we don't care about D&D, or the origins of Hard Counters, and then arguing that we Prefer Baldurs Gate 2 and dislike having our arguments construed as preferring D&D is hypocrisy....how? Excuse me, let me rephrase that. How is it hypocrisy in the real world, as opposed to "hypocrisy" as defined on planet Gromnirea.

It matters because when I make an Argument, I expect people to respond to it, not to make up their own argument, attribute it to me, then respond to it. It matters because I love Baldurs Gate 2's combat more than 2nd Edition AD&D's. It matters because the devs did NOT promise us the tactical combat of AD&D, but rather, the tactical combat of Icewind Dale, and therefore, asking for Hard Counters and insta-kills is a VALID request, and very much within the scope of what they promised us.

Gromnir logic: D&D has Maces and Axes. And so do the IE games (and a bunch of other RPGs), therefore anyone who ever requested Maces and Axes in PoE is simply asking for more D&D.

Dear Broken Record, We are not talking about the voices in your head. We are talking about the posters on this thread. PS: hard counters and insta-kills are mechanics present in completely NON-D&D based games, such as Divinity Original Sin, And Dragon Age: Origins, therefore, your attempts to equate wanting them in PoE to "wanting more D&D" is about as erroneous as it is stupid. Sincerely, Me.

This: Not on this thread there isn't. So that comment of yours is nothing more than a pathetic and dishonest attempt to spin our arguments into something they're not.

Ok, Update me because I'm apparently out of the Loop. Has anyone released PoE sales figures that we can look at an analyze? I know about the Paradox press release where it is announced that 2 games came together to generate $18 Million, but that doesn't tell us squat about PoE's sales. Does it. We have no idea, for example, how much of that $18 million is PoE and how much of it is that Skylines game. And tell me when sales suddenly became the ultimate confirmation of quality. Must have been sometime after Skyrim, I'd wager, since I'm not seeing too many people here hailing Skyrim as 10 times better than Baldurs Gate 2.

What is this, a new tactic from you? You can't refute the points, so you'll just turn around and agree with them? YES Gromnir. The IE games had hard counters and insta-kills. And for those of us who enjoy those mechanics, it does not matter whether they came from D&D, or whether Ray Musyka invented them in a Canadian medical school. And it does not matter because we don't care about D&D... Our PoE vs. IE comparison arguments on this thread are based strictly on our IE games experiences, not our D&D ones, contrary to your incessantly repeated previous claims that we're just whining because we want more D&D. Duh.

Excellent try! But we all know full well that the entire discussion is about us pitting PoE against the IE games (and still is!), NOT D&D. If it was strictly about wanting D&D, then we wouldn't have a whole lot to debate here, would we... since PoE itself takes so much from D&D already. In fact, it takes some things from D&D that the BG series (for example) doesn't. Will Saves; Fortitude Saves; Reflex Saves; Reach weapon mechanics; a modified attack of opportunity system; A Disintegration spell that isn't an insta-kill; A class that plays like a psionisist; A knockdown ability for fighters; Animal companions for Rangers; Stealth, lockpicking and trap disarming as skills that everyone can use; Wizard Spellbooks as physical objects that take up inventory space....ETC. ETC. No, man. It's YOU who are being an obtuse yutz. It's YOU who came here, spouted a retarded gross generalization of what others want. And now it's YOU who's getting called out for it.

You mean Imprisonment. Maze isn't an insta-kill (unless you're soloing). Regardless, I don't understand the mindset here. You're not supposed to LOVE the enemy's attacks. You're supposed to respect and fear them. In fact, one of the load screen tips in Bg1 was to remind you that there's nothing wrong with running away if a fight proves too tough. But yeah. The Irony is Thick here. We have a game seemingly designed from the ground up to eliminate save scumming, and yet it puts whole systems in place that inadvertently force it.

Don't know how I missed this post. Yes. That's it exactly. It's low on those "danger", and "surprise" moments. And the problem is not just story based (companions deserting you, cursed items etc.) The safeness extends to the entire game - it's in the rules, and the mechanics, and the encounters. Where are those "holy sh*t" moments for the first time player? Where is "Oh-God-I'm in trouble" feeling you got when you wandered off too far and suddenly found yourself face to face with a Basilisk that insta-killed a member of your party because you weren't expecting it? Where is that "OMG what's happening here!?" feeling when you stumbled on a tomb and suddenly a nasty creature rose from the ground and cast time stop? Where is that moment when you had to go back to the drawing board and try something else because your tried and true set of attacks, that worked on everything else, were suddenly having no effect at all against that enemy. Where is that element of surprise when you're in a battle with a powerful wizard, and you realize you have the upper hand, but then suddenly he casts finger of death, takes out your Cleric, and now the Sh*t is real , just like that? People here wave this stuff away and argue from the viewpoint of a 10th (or 50th) playthrough when they've sufficiently Memorized every split second of the game, and what to do in each instance, thus none of the above occurs. Which is neither fair or valid in this debate. PoE will suffer from the exact same scenario 15 years from now. No I take that back. PoE suffers from this situation already, on a second playthough, due to the fact that everything works on everything and those "holy sh*t" moments were never placed in the game in the first place, because ONE game developer thought that such moments are design mistakes that would only cause people to reload their games. Which for some reason is the Worst Thing Ever!

So what. PoE uses D&D mechanics. Stop changing the subject. No, Luckmann is right. People asking for More IE Game feel are asking for just that: More IE game feel. D&D was only brought up because YOU brought it up.

Find me one that has been doing that on a serious level. oh, so the ones using ie games as examples is not serious? *chuckle* That would be...arguing for more IE Game, not necessarily more D&D. And yes, Gromnir, there's a huge difference, unless of course you come from a pen and paper group who's DM allowed prebuffing for every fight. Or...unless you're willing to scrap your OWN silly Demilich example on this thread (going Ethereal and casting Power Word: Kill will have no effect on a Demi lich in BG2. On the other hand, summoning fire elementals will. as will the ring of the Ram, Protection from Undead Scrolls, Thief traps, Firebreath, Melf's Minute Meteors, Mace of Disruption +2 etc.)

Should we take some deeper meaning out of the fact that a thread about Dragon Age Inquisition has spawned discussion about pigs....and mud?