Stun

Emphasis on "were". You are indeed arguing, for no valid reason whatsoever, in strictly past tense, while no one else here is. Because Right now, here in 2015, you'll be hard pressed to find a copy of BG2 for sale without throne of Bhaal attached to it. GoG and Steam only sell BG2 bundled with Throne of Bhaal. And the Enhanced Edition of BG2 includes Throne of Bhaal. So when a discussion about BG2's classes occurs, on these forums, it is a GIVEN, that we are including all of BG2, not just Shadows of Amn.

LOL *snort* *groan* Ha! Good Fun!

My vanilla thief was insanely overpowered in Bg2. Didn't have to fight Irenicus. Literally didn't have to fight him because he died from my traps instantly. Twice. First at the tree of life, then again in Hell. Why would anyone see thieves as underpowered in BG2 when you can effortlessly break the game with them? It boggles the mind.

Oh no it didn't. It came in response to the discussion me and you were having about Thieves vs. Fighter-Thieves in BG2. PoE wasn't part of that discussion. At all.

Oh, There's even more here than that. This discussion spawned when someone here spouted the standard "BG2 mages = the only class worth playing" schtick that we're all used to seeing. But if suddenly ToB doesn't count, then we need to re-assess that claim. Don't we. Without ToB, Mages don't get to memorize 9th level spells. That means.... No more spamming Timestop. Or Wish. Or Chain Contingency. No more Dragons Breath, or Comet, or Gate or Shapechange, or Improved Alracity. No more Dualing your Kensai at Level 13 and then reaching anything higher than 14th level as a mage (whoopee! You'll get one 7th level spell! congrats) No More Wild Mages. He pulled that desperate forced-limitation out of his ass, and should be called out for it. Bioware fixed a *ton* of things in BG2 with Throne of Bhaal. They Literally turbo-charged the Thief Class with it - Made them the second most powerful class in the game. Gave them the ability to use their ToB skills in Athkatla. Gave them Time-stop Traps (so they can spam their backstabs) and Use Any Item (so they could BE spell casters). Made their Trap damage scale past 20th level (so they can insta-kill any enemy in the game). etc. Doesn't count, my ass. What Gromnir means to say is that it doesn't count because it makes his "Thieves are underpowered!" claim look mind bogglingly absurd.

Oh, I'm awfully sorry, but Gromnir does not get to set his own personal arbitrary parameters here. ToB is not a stand alone. It is BG2's expansion pack and the developers integrated it into the main game so as to make its class additions usable in Shadows of Amn. That being the case, they're relevant to the discussion, whether Gromnir likes it or not. And the bottom line is that Single class thieves will get their HLAs a LOT sooner than multi-class thieves. And a vanilla thief with HLA's is more powerful than a Multi-class thief without them. That's NOT all 'we' got. That's just all we bothered citing, because we did not need to cite anything else. We did not need to cite, for example, the fact that a single class thief will be able to max all his other skills faster than multi-class thief. Or that a Single Class thief will get the higher XP rewards from trap disarms and lockpicking sooner than a multi-class thief. But again, we do not need to do a comparison. Because comparisons (both favorable and unfavorable) do not change the fact that there's no such thing as Underpowered in BG2. BG2 is deliberately Monty Hall with its loot distribution. It guarantees Overpowered, game breaking characters regardless of class choice, thus allowing players to choose their classes based on, you know, their ROLE PLAYING desires, without having to worry about "trapping" themselves into a "sucky build".

You neither identified any errors, nor did I make any, nor did I even bother citing all the advantages of a single class thief over a multi-class one. But advantages are beside the point anyway, and you know it. You cannot call a class underpowered when it can break the game. At BEST you can use superlatives/comparisons and just describe it as "less powerful", or "more powerful" than another class (which is all you've been trying to do here....)

I gave one. In fact, I gave one and cited undisputable numbers to support it. Again Gromnir, we cannot have a debate when one side can't read.

In the real world, a class that can break the game cannot rationally be described as underpowered. But in Gromnirea, that's just what underpowered means: Game Breaking.

it makes them Underpowered Unbalanced. Fixed. You can't call something underpowered in a game designed to be breakable by any class. But to more directly address the point: If someone asks the question: Why should I choose a vanilla thief when I could simply choose a multi-class thief? I'll answer that question by pointing them to the EXP tables. Vanilla thieves gain levels faster than multi-class thieves. A lot faster. Which means they get more traps sooner. And more relevantly, They'll get their HLAs sooner. Nothing in this game (not even a mage) trumps a thief who gets UAI by the time he gets to the underdark.

The fact that you can make Thief-fighter or Thief-Mage Hybrids and be even more deadly does not make vanilla thieves "sucky", or "screwed", or underpowered. Nor does it lend any validity to the previously spouted claim that non-spell casters are the 'wrong choice'. Does it.

Say what? My vanilla thief was so overpowered, that by about halfway through the game, combat became optional. Literally. His traps annihilated whatever he didn't feel like fighting.

Josh? Josh Sawyer, is that you? <sigh> Ok, Here's a profound news flash for those who claim they've played the IE games but probably f*cking never have, otherwise they'd never spout such absurdity. Absorb this and let it sink in, already: The IE games did not screw over non-casters. They did not even come close. Even Planescape: Torment, with its wacko, Story-first, Wisdom-for-fighters-or-GTFO design, didn't do this. At all. So why bring it up? Oh wait, let me guess why. Because Spell casters in Bg2 were (according to the 2015 hyperbole) 20,000,000,000,000,000 more powerful than every other class, and therefore, if you roll up a fighter with a sword you're...screwed. Right? Right! Because it's only Nostalgia, not fact, that BG2 gives fighters Vorpal Blades; Helmets that let them duplicate themselves; Rings that let them improved Haste themselves, and make themselves invisible, and regenerate their health; Armor that makes them hard to hit; Items that let them summon monsters; Items that let them charm monsters; Items that let them heal themselves; Items that let them Absorb Magic and reflect beholder rays; Items that let them see magically invisible creatures; weapons that let them stun their enemies, hold their enemies, sleep their enemies, poison their enemies etc. It must just be our Nostalgic imaginations, and not fact, that BG2 gives Fighters Better saving throws than Mages, better Armor classes than mages, better Thac0's than mages, More hitpoints than mages; less weapon and armor restrictions than mages. My Vanilla Fighter ended BG2 Overpowered. He did not encounter any "walls" he couldn't blast right through. Didn't yours?

I feel genuine pity for people with this opinion. Genuine. Pity. There's nothing wrong with BG2 mind. I agree. But mostly because I don't quite understand how 1 player can have such a chasm of opinion difference between the two games, where he sees one as awful but loves the other. BG1 and BG2 are remarkably similar, they use the same engine, same ruleset, they have basically the same gameplay. And they both take the same RPG approach (named companions, exploration, Gated Narrative structure etc) They're different only insofar as one is a high level campaign and the other is a low level campaign. I can understand how someone can absolutely love one of them and see it as superior to the other. But to see one as "awful" and other as really good is....strange. It's like saying "Oreos are awful, but Double stuff Oreos are great!"

You mean simplified. Inventory is made bottomless; weight and space restrictions are removed to appeal to casual players who can't be bothered with "complicated" gameplay.

They named dropped the IP's. Baldurs Gate is a SERIES, as is Icewind Dale. They did not need to mention the specific sequels, the specific expansion packs, and the various patch updates. Because anyone with more than a single brain cell knew what they meant when they promised the best elements of those titles. They didn't, for example, promise Planescape Torments Combat, or Icewind Dale's story writing, because that wouldn't have been good marketing.

LOL Wait a minute. So for the record, you are claiming that they didn't promise that PoE will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment? And that this wasn't exactly what they pitched us on the front page of their kickstarter, before asking us for a million dollars?

And, he exits the discussion....with a retard's straw man.

Says who? These forums are for people who wish to discuss the game. Period. It's certainly NOT meant to be limited only to those who like the game, or care about its future.

We're getting this accusation from you? You? The same person who, just a few minutes ago decided to 'inform' us that the only reason we love the IE games more than PoE is because we've grown to "accept" their faults? Grow up, already.

You're right. Giving different party members different roles to play in the party, is a terrible, negative thing in a party based game. Stupid Larian. What were they thinking!?

My recent experience was even more Non-nostalgic than that. After my first playthrough of PoE (which I found pretty darn enjoyable and satisfying btw), I went back and Fired up BG1 and did a playthrough of it. And it was only then that I started realizing all of PoE's shortcomings, and all the ways in which BG1 outshines it. Outdoes it. Out-wows it.

Holy Moly, I've never seen such warped logic. Not to mention history revision. First, the game got better during the 6-month Open beta testing period in spite of an immense and sustained campaign of 'rudeness and fighting' that was much worse and far more widespread than anything we're seeing right now. So I'm not quite sure how you're reaching the conclusion that the community needs to change (or maintain) its behavior in any way. Second, the game got better within the 6 months of beta testing because it was still in the friggin beta phase of production. It was unfinished. Typically, unfinished games get better as developers work on finishing them. Duh. Of course, by suggesting that we'll be seeing the same continual progress post-release that we saw during the 6 months of Beta testing, you're basically admitting that PoE is still a Beta, and that we have to wait for 6 months for them to complete it. You're free to believe this if you wish, but that constitutes a HUGE criticism of the game - something very much equal to the type of viewpoint contained in the Codex review that sent you on a multi-thread hissy fit. Third, the community doesn't have to do anything. And you are grotesquely overestimating yourself and everyone here if you think we have the power to influence the quality and scope of future game updates at all.

No sir. It is resting in BG because Time passes. It is resting in BG because it is tied to per rest abilities, and items with properties that can only be used on a per rest basis. You are mistaken. And this is easy to test out. Go to the Dalish camp in the Bracilian forest (or anywhere that lets you instantly teleport to camp.) Note the time of day. Now teleport to camp... and stay there as long as you want....then teleport back. No time will have passed. if it was night time when you arrived, it will be night time when you return. False. Health (and Stamina and Mana) has its own regeneration system and is not affected, in any way, by a trip to home base. Spells (and all other abilities) are strictly tied to their own cool-down timers and likewise are not affected by the Home base mechanic. The ONLY effects returning to the home base offers is: 1) All injuries are instantly removed 2) some party members have different dialogues; and 3) Party Arbitration is possible. None of these are bonuses.

True. Race options = 1. But what I like about D:OS's character building/customization is....everything else. The system is a strange hybrid of class and classless. Spells, rogue skills and fighter talents are divided up into dozens of 'schools' that anyone can advance in. Anyone. The mix and match nature of it produces a bajillion diverse results. You can Build a warrior-pyromaniac. or a Rogue-healer. or a Mage-backstabber. Or an Archer who can teleport people. Or a Backstabbing warrior who can summon elementals. or an Archer who creates water surfaces so that his lightning arrows become AOE's. Or an Earth-Mage-fighter-rogue-witch. or a Rogue with invisibility spells. Or a Fighter-necromancer-archer-healer-backstabber.... And unlike other games with classless systems (like Skyrim, or Witcher) D:OS still has Ability scores. And talents that are separate from all of the above. And I'm STILL under-stating the big picture, since Crafting, Talking, and Blacksmithing are also Character build options with their own advancement mechanics. And Saving throws can be directly altered/improved via point allocation. etc.