Stun
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Posts posted by Stun
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Wow, the dog-piling on this thread is nausiating. I'm gonna defend the op, now.
Where to begin?
Oh! Right here:
Badmojo, what part of "old school cRPG in the spirit of Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale" you don't get?
How about.... the part where we're supposed to think that those games were anything resembling hard? They were not. None of them had draconic resting limitations. None of them had wonky save-game overwrites that forced artificial "challenge". None of them had a "healing magic is rare" philosophy. None of them had a weird stamina-equals-health-and-health-equals-real-health system.
Hard for the sake of hard isn't "old school". It's modern day attempts to be "cool" by developers who don't get it. The games you mention didn't try to be l33t with their difficulty and tedium. Whatever challenge existed within them felt natural. Organic. Nothing like the examples the OP gave, which are, IMO, contrived and unnatural mechanics that aren't the least bit neccessary for Fun or challenge.
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First off, I want to spend three hours rolling virtual dice. Then I will spend an inordinate amount of time clicking through my custom portraits, which take up a 1 TB external hard drive.
Anyhoo, I also expect to grow up on a small farm on the borderlands (how a high-intelligence half-orc assassin with a semi-Japanese name, an interest in rare poisons and proficiency in throwing stars grew up on a small farm isn't important right now). While I'm killing some rats in a nearby cellar, evil humanoids rampage through the village.
I escape, having found a +1 dagger and levelled up twice. I go on to have a number of hair-raising adventures and earn the trust of a Scottish dwarf with mead dependency issues, a haughty but foxy MILF druid and a scarred barbarian with a name containing no vowels.
This is all sorts of awesome to me.
lol
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Real world arguments are invalid here. There are no elves and dwarves in the real world either. If this dungeon is advertised as a mega-dungeon, it's only normal that some of us just want to marathon through it.
Can you point me to the poster on this thread who ever argued that we shouldn't be allowed to marathon through it?
You mean, Planescape: Torment Dungeons; Icewind dale dungeons: Baldurs Gate Dungeons: Temple of Elemental Evil Dungeons. ie. The dungeons in the very games that PE claims to recapture the magic of. You can freely exit all the dungeons in those games at will.
Even if you don't count the Underdark as a dungeon, I'm pretty sure you couldn't exit the Beholder's Lair (Unseeing Eye quest), Astral Plane, Planar Sphere and Werewolf Island. There's probably more.
There's a HUGE difference between a small series of map areas and massive 15 level complexes. If the Endless paths is going to be a 2 hour quest line (like the ones you mentioned above), then sure, lock us in. But if it's going to be Dragon's Eye x3 then Hell No.
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God I hope not. I don't want to live in a haunted ancient ruin.
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How much did it cost to make the BG, IWD and PS:t games ? I think that is the budget we need to compare.
It's surprizingly hard to find an accurate answer to this question. I've been trying to google it for a while now and I'm coming up with nada.
My gut's telling me that those games couldn't have cost much more than $4 million to make though. And Unlike Project Eternity, those games had whole groups of middlemen that had to be paid their due. (Atari, WoTC, Hasbro etc.)
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Depending on your definition of *triple A*
Indeed. Is there even an officially recognized definition of "triple A title"?
I always just assumed that the term meant high budget, which would make the topic question redundant. I don't think anyone here questions the fact that PE is, by definition, a low budget game. But that's rarely ever a deciding factor of quality or length in the first place. So we, as players, shouldn't really care how much the game costs to develop. I'm willing to bet PE will turn out more polished and more content-rich than the vast majority of today's "triple A titles".
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No one has yet explained what the difference is in practical terms between a 14 level mega dungeon that you can do each level separately and get out...or 14 1 level "skyrim" dungeons that you can run in and out of at will
You mean, Planescape: Torment Dungeons; Icewind dale dungeons: Baldurs Gate Dungeons: Temple of Elemental Evil Dungeons. ie. The dungeons in the very games that PE claims to recapture the magic of. You can freely exit all the dungeons in those games at will.
But to answer your question, I think the practical difference is the storyline/plot. In games that feature 14 singular level dungeons, you're getting 14 plots/ main objectives, while in one massive 14 level dungeon there's just one, and by tackling it one or two levels at a time, that 1 plot is still there, waiting to be completed.
In a giant, semi-open ended game like Baldurs Gate, the freedom of not having to do the entire mega dungeon in one giant go is a welcome thing... for pacing purposes and such. For example, I like doing all the surface levels of Durlag's tower ASAP with a low level party. But I usually save the subterranian levels for later... say, chapter 6, when there's not much left in the game to do. Ditto with BG2's Watcher's keep. I usually like doing the first 3 levels (up to the machine of Lum the Mad) before heading off to Spell Hold. Then, once I return from the underdark, I tackle the rest of the dungeon.
its not a mega dungeon if you can do it in bite size chunks..its just a series of mini dungeons that happen to be in the same place
This is nonsense. Your party is a team of adventurers exploring a massive ancient ruin. In the real world, it takes years to fully complete such a task. You don't just go and do it all at once. You make planned forays and expeditions into it. It can take a lifetime. or several.
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* sighs *
Toggle option - turn dungeon exits ON / OFF
/end thread
Or better yet:
Brain-toggle option: Use/Don't use the F**king exits if you want/don't want to.
By this logic we can just place Nuka-Cola in every inn. Those who don't like it can just pretend it doesn't exist and not use it.
Better? Really?
Call me when using a few exits in a dungeon causes all enemies in that dungeon to explode and drop dead. Or, cause your entire party to instantly be healed and have all spells and abilities replenished. Until then, don't spit out a moronic argument and call it "logic"
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It's not just another city, it is a very hostile environment.
What are you talking about? Ust Natha (the Drow city in BG2's underdark) is no more hostile than Athkatla. And the environs surrounding it are no more hostile than the lands on the surface.
Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, give up on this stupid comparison already. The underdark is not a mega dungeon.
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Other than Josh's Update about Souls, where he points out that souls never die, they just reincarnate from one life to the next?
So essentially, they're undead then.
They could be. Or they could be something else. We don't know enough about the nature of souls in this particular game.
We also can't just assume that we'll be the only party of adventurers tackling the endless paths.
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Do you have any quotes to back that up?
Other than Josh's Update about Souls, where he points out that souls never die, they just reincarnate from one life to the next?
In the second paragraph, they describe "restless victims of a horrific plague" - that to me, implies that they're no longer living.The second paragraph is prefaced with the caveat that it's Fiction and conjecture.
Literally. The very first sentence says this: Most else that is said and written of the place is fiction or conjecture, more likely to have sprouted from the svef-enhanced imaginations of bored and boasting mercenaries than from any seed of truth.
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The Dungeon description actually says THIS:
http://www.kickstart...ty/posts/319868
In the western reaches of the Dyrwood lies the Endless Paths, an ancient network of cobbled trails that wind through arches of dense overgrowth, twisting within the confines of a high castle wall as they make their way to the gates of iron-shuttered towers that jut forth from the interior. In ages past, the towers rising from the gardens to pierce the canopy of the forest once marked the dominion of the castle's relentless, crazed builder: Od Nua. But the courses of Od Nua's madness run far below the surface, stretching forever deeper into wandering catacombs and bone-cramped oubliettes unseen by living eyes for centuries. The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.We have no idea yet what 'Strong Souls' are in PE. They could be undead. or they could be something else entirely.
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Great! But there are no plausable explanations for a man-made, (and occupied) structure 15 levels in size to not have exits all over the place - unless this structure has some sort of self sustaining economy and/or Eco-system, and if it does, then there goes your "intense" and "ominous" mood.
Occupied? You're kidding, right? We're talking about an ancient structure that's been abandoned for centuries here.
So.... It's empty? Void of living things?
Oh, now there's a good idea: lets promote tedium and repetition! No mid-dungeon exits, but go ahead and allow the party to just walk back through ALL the dungeon levels they've already seen/explored so that they can leave.LOL
It's only tedium if....
...The game forces the player to back track level after level.
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Points of no return are plot-based mechanics that can be brilliantly done near the bottom of the dungeon to great success. But I shudder at the notion of a friggin 15 level mega dungeon having a point of no return as soon as you enter (which is what the OP suggested)
How many times do I need to say, I'm not suggesting preventing the player from turning back and leaving through the inital entrance. Perhaps I didn't make that point clear in my original post, but i've stated it numerous times now throughout this thread. You even quoted me saying it on the previous page!
Oh, now there's a good idea: lets promote tedium and repetition! No mid-dungeon exits, but go ahead and allow the party to just walk back through ALL the dungeon levels they've already seen/explored so that they can leave.
LOL
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I'm in favour of plausible explanations for there being only two exits if it makes for a much more intense, ominous dungeon
Great! But there are no plausable explanations for a man-made, (and occupied) structure 15 levels in size to not have exits all over the place - unless this structure has some sort of self sustaining economy and/or Eco-system, and if it does, then there goes your "intense" and "ominous" mood.
the player can't just hop in and out of at leisure.And this is a straw man. Just about every single poster on this thread who has advocated exits at every level or almost every level has put forth the suggestion that these exits be either 1) guarded; 2) puzzled; 3) trapped; or 4) hidden. This rules out "hopping" and "leisure", doesn't it. So stop arguing against stances that no one here is taking.
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First, there's the issue whether to have an exit at every level.
In other words, we're now splitting hairs. There's no real difference between placing an exit at every level, vs. placing an exit every few levels. The thread starter (after a few pages of debate) has now said that the latter is a-ok! but the former is not.
Second, there's the issue of points-of-no-return.
Points of no return are plot-based mechanics that can be brilliantly done near the bottom of the dungeon to great success. But I shudder at the notion of a friggin 15 level mega dungeon having a point of no return as soon as you enter (which is what the OP suggested)
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More to the point: Unless we learn that the Endless paths is a Prison-type dungeon and your party is kidnapped and tossed in at the very bottom and must make their way up to level 1 to leave, you don't have any sort of logical argument against level exits, as they are completely consistant with any type of man made structure and have existed in the most time honored and loved CRPGs Pen & paper Dungeons and Dragons dungeon modules since the mid 1970s.
Huh?
I'm not suggesting having only 1 entrance / exit. I'm just suggesting no exits at every level purely for the player's convenience.
So basically you're in favor of a complete suspension of Logic, engineering basics, and consistancy of lore, in order for all players to be plot shackled and held prisoner in this dungeon once they enter it.
Because all of the above (logic, engineering basics, lore consistancy) necessitates that the bigger the man-made structure, the more exits it will have. Also, I really don't see the "hand holding" difference between putting an exit at every level, vs an exit at every few levels.
There's also Zero logic behind your latest suggestion of not having any exits at the top and middle but then suddenly having a bunch of exits near the bottom.
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Don't lump me into a catagory when you have no clue what you're talking about, please.
Firstly, atmosphere is hugely important to me. That's a big reason why I don't want exits at every level. Go read the description they gave for the dungeon. It sounds really ominous - a place where most adventures don't come out alive. So being able to hop in and out whenever I want to sell loot in a nearby down completely trivializes the dungeon. It becomes less of a deadly location to endure, and more of series of game levels for people to collect loot and kill baddies.
Secondly, exploration and discovery are very important to me also, and I fail to see how not having exits halfway down makes the dungeon any less exciting to explore. Please, explain that logic to me.
Enough of this ridiculous drivel.
Level exits in massive 15 level dungeons are not "hand holding". They don't "kill atmosphere", they don't conflict with the spirit of the old school RPGs, and they're not mutually exclusive to the notion that the dungeon is supposed to be an 'adventurer's graveyard'.
More to the point: Unless we learn that the Endless paths is a Prison-type dungeon and your party is kidnapped and tossed in at the very bottom and must make their way up to level 1 to leave, you don't have any sort of logical argument against level exits, as they are otherwise completely consistant with any type of man made structure and have existed in the most time honored and beloved CRPGs and Pen & paper D&D dungeon modules since the mid 1970s.
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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them.
I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".Watcher's Keep did it. You saw the portal to the next level as soon as you arrived to the current level. And if you hovered your cursor over the portal you *literally* saw the words: "to next level".
Edit: Hell, Even Planescape Torment and Temple of Elemental Evil had giant colorful Map markers that showed you where the exits were.
Perhaps the problem here is that we're a forum full of people who have completely different philosophies on what makes a good dungeon. Some people hold atmosphere, exploration, and discovery as paramount, while others just love Roleplaying captured Rats in a maze. I'm in the former camp. You're in the latter. But that's fine. I'm pretty sure obsidian has already said that this mega dungeon will have multiple exits for those who wish to savor the experience one piece at a time, instead of doing the whole thing in one go.
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* sighs *
Toggle option - turn dungeon exits ON / OFF
/end thread
Or better yet:
Brain-toggle option: Use/Don't use the F**king exits if you want/don't want to.
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I gave BG2's underdark journey as a positive example for implementing a many, many hours long adventure in a hostile environment during which you won't be able to teleport to your 'home base' - to counter the apparently widespread attitude that long all-in-one-go adventures must necessarily be boring, overly difficult, or in some other way suck.
Except that even BG2's Underdark gave you the option to leave before you finished it. You were never "trapped" at all. Ever killed the Silver Dragon before doing chapter 5's main quest? She drops a wardstone that lets you open the door to the surface. So yeah, even if BG2's Underdark was just one big dungeon, instead of what it actually is: viable alternative to the entire surface world, it STILL wouldn't support your argument.
PS:
And I have to ask, why do you play games at all when you could get rid of all constraints by playing out your own adventure in your head, where all and any options will be available whenever you want?
LOL The Hyperbole on this thread is unmatched. A 15 level dungeon with multiple exits = All game constraints lifted. Derp.
Actually, no. I don't make it a habit to play excrutiatingly linear games. I like my player agency. What about you?
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It was... Painful. And shameful. If I was the "green shirt girl", I'd have been traumatized for life.
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The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.
The Endless Paths should be feared. The Endless Paths are named "Endless" for a reason. Easy exit on every level just breaks the whole thing.
Not following. "Endless paths" simply suggests that it's a path that goes on forever. Putting exits in it every few levels does not suddenly make it not-endless.
If it was meant to trap the player for 14 levels without respite they'd have called it "the unescapable endless prison"
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I would argue that while having lots of exits is certainly plausible, implementing such exits in a game is almost always done for the convenience of the player.
Exits, are, by definition, tools of convenience. The fact that two different factions (the player, and his foes) may take advantage of this convenience simply makes it good story writing/level design. You have no argument.
Again, look at the mines of Moria as an example. If the fellowship walked past several clear-as-daylight exits on their journey through the mines, it would have been a detriment to the story.Say what? The Mines of Moria (are you talking about Lord of the Rings?) Is not a dungeon. It's a city. Excuse me. it's two cities. Two full cities, with plenty of fairly obvious doors, exits and gates all over the place. If one were to accurately implement such a thing into a video game, then your arguments of "hand holding" and "too easy", would not disappear, since we're talking about two big cities filled with friendly merchants, inns to rest at, places to take a breather, and loads of stuff to do that have nothing to do with dungeon crawling. etc.
I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".
Crossing from fun to frustrating by design.
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted · Edited by Stun
Did Planescape Torment have Perma-death? Or did it have a Protagonist who could, at level 1, cast ressurection 3 times per day?
Did Icewind Dale have a 'no resting except at campsites' system? Or could you rest pretty much anywhere you wanted, and any time you wanted, as soon as there were no enemies visible?
Was healing in Baldurs Gate rare? Or did those games flood you with more healing potions and Clerics than you could ever use?
I don't get this "Old school = Hard" belief that seems to be running rampant on this forum. Your memories are defective. Those games held you with their warm, loving hands. And if you *really* knew and loved those "old school" games, you wouldn't want it any other way.