kumquatq3

I posted an article about "new atheism" and the people behind it. Then Pidesco asked a question about whether certain famous borderline historical/mythical figures existed. You posted a response explaining that you thought that they did, but that the myths were decidedly improbable. Now I'm telling the people in this thread if you remove the faith requirements of the stories, what do you have left? As Dark Moth understood. I'm not sure where you got off track (or why your acting now), but I'd like you to stop.

Sure, if you throw out 99% of the story, that is what you get. You also throw out the "faith" requirement of these stories. It's not a miracle, it's just a metaphor. If you don't have a faith or supernatural requirement, then you just have a story about people walking through the desert with no facts to back it up. Or worse, a metaphor that is nothing more than simple morality tale. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why are you telling me what I should or should not believe? Why can't it be a "simple morality tale"? You mean like you telling Hurlshot that the story is only a metaphor? However, I highly doubt anyone will take my comments as me telling them what to think. Please refrain from flaming in a thread about a sensitive topic or I will notify Fio. I will NOT have a "mod" derail a topic after 11 pages.

To whom? To apparently everyone in this thread but you. As it is part of what we are debating. Who said I was worshipping any gods? Or lack of worship. If Hercules was half God, I'd want to know.

Sure, if you throw out 99% of the story, that is what you get. You also throw out the "faith" requirement of these stories. It's not a miracle, it's just a metaphor. If you don't have a faith or supernatural requirement, then you just have a story about people walking through the desert with no facts to back it up. Or worse, a metaphor that is nothing more than simple morality tale.

At least 2 religions have Hercules and Odysseus. In those stories they often visit factual places iirc. Would you assume because there are stories about them, statues even, that they actually existed in any form that resembles the story? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's an equivocation fallacy; but for the sake of your argument, yes, I would assume that they actually did exist. Whether their existence resembles what we have in stories today is irrelevant. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you assume Hercules existed. However, you are incorrect, the stories resembling the reality of the person is VERY important. If Hercules is half God, don't you think you're worshiping the wrong Gods?

Perceived social value is entirely correct. It seems like we can both agree that the facts of their lives are less important than the message these stories bear. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't say message here. I also said entertainment. Entertainment purposes can be seen as a social value. However, if the stories are false, and are repeated for the message, what message is really being sent if all the miracles and such are false? Is Paul Bunion told because it has a deep message? Not only that, I don't believe it's a American myth. It was borrowed from another culture iirc.

This is actually what I thought, as I've heard it before. The thought it wasn't the Red sea, but some marsh that was prone to evaporation at times of the year, etc. However, the crossing of the red sea is important because it is supposed to depict a miracle. Crossing a marsh isn't much of a miracle. and I think another argument is that the Egyptians wouldn't record a loss (even tho they recorded other losses.) Penn & Teller did a Bull**** episode on it

Hercules and Odysseus were likely famous Greek warriors that, through oral traditions, became legendary figures. We have plenty of more recent figures that have become legends. Davy Crockett is an example. Sure, there is a chance that Odysseus is a completely fabricated character, but fiction usually reflects the truth. We can prove the Trojan wars happened, so it's not outrageous to think that famous generals arose. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, that's possible, and it is actually my point. However, that would likely mean these people are so far removed from the legends that speak of them that the fact they lived is meaningless. As the people being spoken of only bear a passing resemblance to them. The tails live on for entertainment or because of a precieved social value.

At least 2 religions have Hercules and Odysseus. In those stories they often visit factual places iirc. Would you assume because there are stories about them, statues even, that they actually existed in any form that resembles the story? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just out of curiosity Kum, have you actuallly researched this yourself? Abraham, I mean. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As I said last page, i can't speak to Abraham off the top of my head. Metas post wasn't talking about evidence, other than the guy appears in various texts. I was simply showing that isn't a basis for belief alone.

Why make up Paul Bunion and his big Blue Ox or John Henry. Entertainment? Morality tails? Maybe it would be close minded to discount their message, but not their "facts".

Just a link to a book cover, no overview or anything, can you fill us in?

At least 2 religions have Hercules and Odysseus. In those stories they often visit factual places iirc. Would you assume because there are stories about them, statues even, that they actually existed in any form that resembles the story?

I'm starting to think the books Saywer reads only have a passing insight into the plot.

Who DARES move my thread!!?!? May you internet explorer be infected by many viruses

Historically, there is no reason to doubt their existence. I completely disagree, see above post. I would say there is nothing to support the story as fact or Moses as a real person (close to the person in the story)

Greed, hate, and humanity are tied together too. Doesn't mean their good. Not that I'm slapping religion with that label, but I disagree with that point as proof to anything. The first set of laws were interesting, they had a prologue and a closing that basically were prayers to the gods chiefly cursing those that neglect or destroy the law. Some of those laws being: If any one buy a male or female slave, and before a month has elapsed the benu-disease be developed, he shall return the slave to the seller, and receive the money which he had paid. If a slave say to his master: "You are not my master," if they convict him his master shall cut off his ear. If he hire an ass for threshing, the hire is twenty ka of corn. If any one steal a water-wheel from the field, he shall pay five shekels in money to its owner. If any one find runaway male or female slaves in the open country and bring them to their masters, the master of the slaves shall pay him two shekels of silver. Mostly stuff dealing with dowry's, slaves, what crime results in what body part or child being killed (Good news! Faulty roofing only got your first born son killed!), payment for ox rental, etc Is the first written laws we know of important? Surely. Greater Good? You decided. Science? Nah. Nature. It's awe inspiring to me to see things play out, step by step. What works moves on. What doesn't eventually fails. I know there is a respectable argument that a guy named Jesus existed at some point. However, as for Moses, their isn't a shred of evidence outside the religious texts. You think that 600,000+ people walking through the desert for 40 years would leave some sort of trail. Plus, the Ancient Egyptians were fantastic record keepers. Texts, sculpture and artifacts testify to a sophisticated culture. There is no evidence for the existence of Moses. Although he is portrayed as an influential member of the Egyptian royal household, he is not mentioned in any Egyptian record. Nor is there any evidence to support the idea that the Jews were ever held captive in Egypt or that they made any exodus from the country under Moses

Remind me never to go egg shopping with you

Does pumping the fish oil out of the fish hurt them? When will our bloodlust be filled by Omega-3's?

Teradactyl = Pre-Historic angels of death

I'll worry about that next year

I always thought that Beckham defined the term So, the closer you get to him, the more metro-y you are.

Right click the underlined word and it will offer suggestions. I've noticed that it can be a crap shoot sometimes.

Show me a preview were they don't suck **** Their reviews, however, are usually the best of the major online review sites. IMO.

Right, me too, except replace "reading" with "Drinking" and "book" with "vodka" and "Sleep" with "dead hooker"

The Good: Good death animations. The Bad: Numerous crashes and glitches get in the way; minimal character building and progression; most of the game's combat is unsatisfying; storyline is almost completely transparent right off the bat. http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/darkmess...gic/review.html oops!