Aristes

Coming from a classical perspective, I see the optative voice as a Greek construct rather than English. Greek and Latin rely more heavily on grammar than English, which relies more on word placement rather than grammar per se. However, the optative in Greek certainly has the power to make a more nuanced statement. Latin doesn't really have an optative, and English use of the optative is really very limited. In Greek, the optative might be the only way to convey an idea in a sentence, but sometimes the writer has the choice of using the subjunctive. In terms of the split infinitive, I see no logical reason why the rule shouldn't change, but it has been a rule. As you state, and I must not have conveyed adequately, it is a relatively recent rule and certainly misguided. However, it's still the basis for reducing the grade on a paper. In fact, so is the use of passive voice, and it's not even against da rulez in either UK or US English. It's just considered (haha) stylistically improper. For my part, I like the passive voice. It allows the writer to bypass standard English word order in placing the actor in a scene behind the recipient of the action. "I was held up at gunpoint by an irate shopper!" Personally, I like having the choice, but... aw well, you can't always get what you want. Another rule I don't like is the prohibition against ending sentences with prepositions. If I recall correctly, that's another rule derived from classical languages. The thing is, Greek and Latin works end clauses with prepositions fairly regualrly. Not all works, but poetry in particular. ...And when we end a sentence with a preposition in English, it's usually because it's part of the verb. "The boy threw up." I usually get by that by substituting a different verb, but why should I? It's a perfectly good verb construction and folks understand it. I actually love talking about languages. It's fun. ...But it also requires me to use the correct terms, which I habitually forget. For that reason, I'll leave it as is. Still, it's cool to know that some poor souls find this all as interesting as I do.

Sometimes you scare me. Somewhat along the lines of Walsingham, who is completely crazy. I especially liked your "Fallout 3 for diners" perk list.

Okay, fair enough J.E., but I submit that either "...to 'go inside'." or "...to 'go inside.'" will convey the meaning with essentially no ambiguity between them. From a logical sense, I understand your point. From a logistical sense, I think it's easy on us poor, lazy Americans to simplify the rule so we do the same thing each time. If I can understand your defense of the logical argument, I'd hope that you can at least give a nod to the logistical one. As far as mistakes go, someone else will have to be the bully here. I don't have any real interest in enforcing my will because I would then be forced to maintain some consistency, which I currently lack. All goofing aside, I'm very lazy. As long as I convey my meaning, I don't care spend a lot of time worrying about any conventions at all. EDIT: Although I guess I really do have to make sure I make the two examples different for the statement to make sense.

Yeah, I loved the game, but I can see where it's not everybody's cup of tea. I'm pretty forgiving of some of your complaints because I'm used to many many games in the industry with the same problem. Dialogue is a good example. However, that doesn't mean that the dialogue didn't have some glaring problems from time to time, especially depending on the person talking. Tigranes talkes about wild changes in tone? Jericho drove me nuts. He's going to kill you one second and he's your bosom buddy the next for some silly reason? On the whole, I think FO3 is a great game, but that doesn't mean I'm blinded to its faults.

Well, if tarna and Krezaks defense is right, then J.E.'s point is already lost. After all, then why don't we throw out every strange or alien rule out of both UK and US English? That act of defiance based on

Here here!

That's exactly what I mean, Aram. I think it would be great to have a non-adventure game try that sort of approach. Think of Star Trek. Hey, J.E., do you think you could hire out a Klingon to do an authentic voiceover? Seriously, though, it has potential. There are some fabricated languages, such as Klingon and Elvish that could serve for some of the voice over work for these games. I think it would be sweet.

Neither. It's doughnut. Yeah, Crashgirl. You're spelling's only one step from 'dognut' and that, I assure you, is NOT a tasty treat. I certainly hope you don't know from experience.

False. There are different styles, and from memory putting the full stop inside the quotation is the American style. Sawyer used the British style. More power to him! If we're going to be pedantic, you should have used the word 'quotation', since in this context 'to quote' is a verb, not a noun. Forgive me for citing the correct form in American writing when addressing an American writer on an American website. Any copy editor for a US publication would have moved the period inside of the quotation; it's not a choice that every writer gets to make for him/herself. (Chicago Manual of Style, 15th ed., sec. 6.8 ) And, according to Merriam-Webster, "quote" has been used as a noun to mean "quotation" as far back as 1888. See, now I'd been thinking of writing something along these lines and you had to beat me to it. The fact is that you can usually find errors in folks' writing. It's just a fact of life. I don't even get bent out of shape by the 'dialogue' vs the 'dialog' sorts of issues. Sure, I think things like "whatup" and "how r u" and "that's ur loot" are kind of lazy, but the important thing is to get the message. I'm not much of a purist in that regard. In more formal settings, however, I am demanding. Informal writing is one thing and formal writing is another. If push came to shove, however, I'd side with the purists. That would suck, because I'm actually pretty lazy when I post stuff. I'd have to write them in word or something and then tidy my grammar. Ugh.

I think all the instances are pretty short in WotLK. In face, the two dungeons I've done thus far are super easy. Yeah, the final boss in Utgarde is pretty rough, but we still killed him the first time through with only two losses. ...And part of that had to do with the fact that I tanked him in the middle of all those damned pillars and we suffered some terrible line of sight issues. Next time I'll tank him on the bridge and I bet we don't even have a problem. The Nexus is just pretty straightforward, although the pulls are generally tougher. I do hope for some harder instances, but for the first ones out of the gate, I think they did a much better job than they did with Ramparts, which I think was probably a little tougher on noobish parties. To be fair, though, I did my first Ramparts runs in PuGs. Maybe if I'd had a guild at the time, I would have thought they were just as easy.

Because whether or not something can be improved upon is entirely a matter of opinion. Also, one can want to retell a story without thinking the original needed improving. Further, let's talk about Lysistrata. I've read it in the original Greek. I've read it in translation. I've read it as retold as anti-war in general and specific to certain wars, Viet Nam for example. I understand it from a historical perspective. I understand it from changing perspectives throughout history. If you think The Ladykillers has greater enduring literary value, then I guess the discussion is pretty much over. However, cultures throughout history have borrowed and changed works in an almost endless procession. Sometimes someone will want to adapt something to their culture. Other times, the original has some value but the most recent rendition is literally too archaic for the general population to understand or enjoy. Often, the lessons a work teaches to the readers or viewers changes over time. The work might contain many messages that want for further exploration or the people retelling or reinventing the work might simply misunderstand the original intent. This is rediculous To argue against retellings on any basis is absolutely nuts. After all, unless you want crash courses in the specific languages (and good luck with that Attic Greek crash course) stories must be retold if for no other reason than the necessary translation. Yes, do some individuals go overboard in editing or rearranging borrowed stories? Of course they do! I've even read some. Some of those egregious offenders were on the stage well before English. My point is, we've got two ways of looking at things. One way is to say that diversity is good and we should celebrate different cultures by crafting a game that draws the player in to the best that different civilizations provide... brings cultures and languages to life in a way that encourages the player to immerse himself in what the world has to offer. The other way of looking at the issue is to say that some people are so closed minded and unwilling to leave their comfort area, either because they're lazy or arrogant or even ignorant in the worst sense of the word. Which do you think is the better basis for making a good game?

Sorry, must have been something you said, Gorth. I'll go through and find it later, but this big ol' American is going to go eat some Mexican food. Mmm, since I'm part Mexican, I'll go fifty-fifty on this remake.

Oh, and I'm a big fan of certain Russian Novelists. I've seen their works told as written and retold in different ways. I like that. I think it does expose Americans to different ideas. In virtually all cases, I prefer the orginal, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the retelling.

Um. You do realize I'm American, right? Um. You do realize that you're not the only person in the thread, right? I was somewhat thinking of Gorth when I made my comment, but since he's thinking of revoking your voting rights, I'll withdraw my comment.

Notice, still holding my [native] tongue in regards to the idea that US audiences/readers/viewers are peculiar in preferring their language. OMG! Those terrible Americans! Run for the hills, Amerification is coming! Sometimes things don't translate well. However, sometimes Amerificating something (haha what a term) is the best way to expose citizens of the United States to a different idea or story. It's not bad and I'd think that most folks overseas would appreciate the fact that someone in the US regarded their product highly enough to emulate it. Moreover, some of the best works of literature or the stage are prime candidates for telling and retelling in different settings. I've seen French, Russian, English, etc works in both the original and the same works done as retold as a variation of setting retaining the same themes. Hell, isn't that why so many people use Shakespeare's plays in wildly different times, backdrops, and settings? If the point is that using a diversity of languages would be good, I'll agree. If the point is to castigate us arrogant Americans, then I'll politely, meaning no offense, and in the best possible way tell you to go to hell. hahaha And Europeans are accusing the Americans of cultural arrogance? Good Lord, how can you even do that without laughing? EDIT: Wait, I didn't hold my tongue as well as I thought!

I actually agree with that. There's something compelling about hearing foreign languages in places that make sense. It would even be nice to have American accents transcending base prejudice. For example, maybe we could have a southern scientist who isn't a dumb yokel. After all, I've known some pretty smart southerners who spoke with an accent. One thing I have to say, however, is that the accent to which I'm most accustomed seems to be pretty widespread across the country. I've lived as far easy as Virginia, went to school in Indiana, lived briefly in Alabama, and have spent a lot of time in Nevada and California. My west coast accent blends into the woodwork in most of those places, even where there is a significant number of folks who speak with an accent, such as Alabama. Hell, there are probably more folks with the flat west coast accent in VA than southern. Really, I think it comes down to money. It's probably just harder to find voice over actors to do exotic accents for these games. Since VO work doesn't seem to be a priority, we'll probably be looking at more of the same for a long time. However, I also dream of a game where the dialogue switches between different languages easily and the only localization is in crafting subtitles! That would be great!

My God, thank you. That was soooo funny. I'm seriously busting a gut over it. To be honest, I never realized that dialog existed until the thread in CnC. Good Lord, that was funny. hahahahaha Whew. MUST. BREATH!

Well, I can honestly say that I prefer subtitles, but I don't think that makes me somehow superior to folks who prefer dubbed dialogue. Please, can we avoid a typical US bashing discussion in this regard. See, I'm restrained. I'm not answering with a long pointed posted regarding the perception that Americans are such bad folks because they like to hear the dialogue in English. Having lived overseas, I can tell you that ethnocentrism and nationalism are not peculiar to the United States. Furthermore, American arrogance in regards to entertainment and titles, while unwelcome, makes a lot more sense than, say, eastern European. We have a fairly important market, don't we? Yes, I would like to see greater diversity in games, and I said in agreement with Crashgirl earlier. However, I don't think developers should include diversity in the spirit of moral superiority or dicacting purposes. Use it in ways that enrich the game, not to beat on Americans who have become accustomed to the rest of the world Accomodating English.

I don't think anyone went out and bought FO3 specifically to hear Mr. Neeson's performance, but his inclusion probably helped in other ways. I'm thinking specifically of media coverage outside the gaming media. Since Bethesda is a local company around here, their stuff usually gets some coverage in the Washington Post and other local outlets. The fact that Neeson was involved in the game usually figured pretty prominently in this kind of non-gaming-media coverage-- non-gamers (and non-gamer reporters) tend to take a project more seriously if they see a serious celebrity involved in it. That shift in attitudes probably does help sales in subtle ways. There's also the fact that better voice over work is part of a well finished game. Sure, it might not be an initial draw, but it does pay somewhere along the line. At the end of the day, the gameplay is probably the most important selling factor over the long term, but all of these other pieces must fit into the puzzle somewhere. The question isn't whether or not the voice-over work pays. If it didn't pay at all, developers/publishers would have abandoned in a long time ago. The question is how much it pays and how much you get back for every dollar you spend on it.

I think there are a couple of good points in here. I'd like to see games where the folks speak languages of the area. In those cases, simple subtitles would suffice for me. After all, I turn on subtitles for English dialgue (I've always seen and read dialogue spelled as dialogue and I've been an American for... let's see... all my life!). Like most folks, I read the dialogue faster than the voice actor says it. Unless the acting is truly superb, I generally skip it. Even if it's superb, I almost always skip it after the first run. So, English subtitles and authentic voice acting would probably add a certain something to the game. If this were the plan, then we could see a truly international game. I like that idea. Very cosmopolitan. On the other hand, Stalker was localized. In my version, the background chatter remained in Russian.* The actual dialogue was in English. I figured you already knew that, since it would have been pretty damned hard to play the game without understanding any of the interactive dialogue. (Maybe not impossible for a lot of games out there though. haha) So, if you mean background chatter and whatnot, I completely agree with you. I thought it really did help promote the feeling of being in Chernobyl. However, there is a caveat. First of all, STALKER was developed by Russian (again, I'm assuming here, but they were certainly eastern European) designers. It makes sense that they'd make the game in a certain language and then localize for the US. The real crux is, how do you think this game would do? You'd love to see it. I agree. If the design team is really clever and does a good job with it, then I'm sure that gamers would receive it well. ...But as a general rule, I'm not so sure it would fare well. It certainly couldn't come accross as a gimmick. As part of a real effor to draw in the player? Sure. As a half-assed attempt to show off for the player? Not so much. Of course, I'm someone who went to seeThe Passion of the Christ[/b] because of how Gibbson handled language and then complained because he used church Latin pronunciations. It's no surprise I would like to see more games done the same way. On the other hand, even if it's well received, will such design features pay for themselves? That's the real issue. If you start having games set in a variety of countries, you not only have to make sure the voice actors are from those countries, but that the dialogue is well written in both American English and the country that provides the setting.** That's not only going to entail extra costs for the talent but also to prepare the manuscript. *I guess it's Russian. Sounded eastern European, but I don't know the difference between Russian and Polish offhand, even though I'm sure they're vastly different. Same goes for other Slavic languages. **I'm putting the developer in the US for convenience, but the same principle would apply to any nation.

There's a lot of good ideas in regards to the phasing mechanic and at least some areas where they don't actually use phasing but the folks will react differently to people who've uncovered more of the plottline. I love it. I mean, yeah, the part in Grizzly Hills is pretty obvious, like being smacked in the head with a blunt object, but it's still cool. They did a great job with this expansion. It's turned me back into a WoW fan. I've only gotten up to 74 with my rogue. My warrior and hunter are each 73. My mage is 72. We've done the Nexus and Utgarde Keep. Turns out that the levels for Utgarde Keep are lower although I think the last boss in UK is harder than the last boss for the Nexus. The Nexus is weird in that you see the final boss almost right away, but we went around the whole thing before we came back to kill her.

Aw well, I was hoping to get the Brazilian/Portuguese thing in order to shoot back that I know I already know but still couldn't tell the difference. I have to admit, though, that you have a point about foreign players. I guess the question is, which is more important for marketting purposes? That's not a snide or sarcastic question. I mean, as I understand it, you Obsidianites have pretty strong non-US sales. You might want to pay close attention to those markets and accomodate them. On the other hand, you probably don't want US customers to be confused by accents that don't sound authentic. ...And that's a problem also, since folks are sometimes fooled by fake accents and other folks are not fooled by real ones. haha Seriously, though, I get the point about intentionally wrong accents, but it seems like a whole can of worms. My point still remains, although perhaps a bit tempered now, that you need to get good bang for the buck. If it's worth the investment, and you've given a reasonable basis for why it might be, then spend the cash.

I think this thread is a pretty good example of one of the problems with spending the dough on bringing talent in from out of state/country. Folks won't know the difference and the ones who do won't care. I mean, I thought Moire did a pretty good job. She sounds just like someone I know in real life, and she even kind of looks a little the same too. I thought it was funny. Her acting wasn't exactly top notch, but good enough for a video game, soap opera, or most sitcoms. I suppose having an American voice actor step into the studio to do what most Americans think is a French accent is perfectly fine considering most Americans should then be happy with the performance. I suppose most Italian, German, French, English, Japanese, etc people do something similar? I mean, why are bad ol' Americans expected to know precisely how an honest to goodness Brazilian sounds? I mean, I don't. I guess I'm just one o' those ignornt ol' Americans, even though I did live overseas for several years and have been to both Asia and Europe. I could definitely tell you the difference between a Korean, Japanese, or Chinese accent. The difference between Brazilian or Argentinian? The difference between either one and an American who does a passable Spanish accent and for whom a Brazilian identity has been established through narrative or dialogue? Not so much. Purity is great and all, but you should get bang for the buck in my ever so humble opinion.

The Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew are pretty big young adult franchises in the US. There was even at least one TV series about the Hardy Boys. Detective Sleuths. Not too many years ago, there was a Nancy Drew movie. I'm still playing WotLK. I've got a 72 warrior and Mage, a 73 hunter, and a 74 rogue. Pretty good gaming, although I haven't spent as much time playing as some. He'll I've seen some level 80 Death Knights running around. Must have been focusing on leveling, I guess.

Of all the complaints about PS:T, the criticism about the death mechanic seems the most ludicrous. The party members can all die, even if the PC himself is generally impervious to death. The way the design team integrated the death mechanic into the story and puzzles was splendid. The other complaints I generally see regarding PS:T, large ammounts of on-screen text, limited spells, and combat, seem more or less reasonable, even where I disagree. In regards to death in game generally, I'm split. PC death is not a particularly important aspect of a game per se. However, there is certainly a disconnect in seeing one of the PCs/Playable NPCs cut down by a sword or laser fire only to get up in relatively good shape after combat. Of course, as we're conditioned more and more to accept that disconnect, it will cease to be an issue also. For example, we pretty much accept the fact that we'll get shot several times in the leg without pulling up lame in an FPS, right? We accept that someone will shoot us in the head without player death. ...And I simply don't understand why lack of so called permanent death break 'immersion' but dying and reloading from 30 seconds prior doesn't make much difference. Doesn't it break immersion when you can simply reload after seeing your PC get the chop? All that said, however, I prefer to be forced to reload for making stupid mistakes. It depends on the game, but lack of PC death bugs me in certain cases, such as DnD. That's one of the things that put me off of NWN. So, it is an issue, and I certainly don't begrudge folks their preferences, but removing death seems reasonable for a platform jumper anyhow.