Zelean

You challenge me, Jediphile. Why did you not comment on examples of manipulation I gave? Which strategy did you use

I take it you hate manipulation and what it represents. But don't forget that when (in real-life) parents buy toys to their children they generally manipulate; that politicians manipulate when they claim democracy is the best social system ever; that you manipulate your girlfriend when you flatter her (hypothetical, of course)

It seems I have missed quite a lot lately. This is how I feel on the subject. "Blue"

I agree. Whoa, what an inspiring manipulator she was! Fate. A very interesting word. Cristianism(?): everything pre-set (by God), no choice whatsoever == despair Buddhism: reflection of who we are and were (karma) == hope Yup. I love Kreia

I agree to a point. But why go where no man walked before? Why hide? I thought (my) Exile knew exactly what happened at MV he just couldn't understand it. At least those were the choices I used when I had the chance. Or so I remember... It's just a quote I remember: 'So they [council members] knew all along.' (after exile scene) It's not something I'd say if I wasn't aware of what happened myself. I'd go more along: 'What?! They're delusional.' Hmm

Interesting verbiage there, Jediphile. Why "choose" exile then? I believe it was Kreia who established the force bond, so that she could firsthand taste what "freedom/void" she hungers for so badly feels like. Hence the Exile's connection to the force. The Exile must have been a Jedi of special significance before Malachor V so manipulation of the force (powers) wasn't strange to him. As for techniques

Excellent! And I thought you disagree.

Kavarr does say: "The choice of one was the choice of us all." I don't think she corrupted any of her students. I do imagine she was a very liberal mentor, though. Then at some point (after Revan incident, I believe) she came about with her belief on the 'evil' Force. Now, that must have been upsetting for the council. 'We need to shut her up quickly now

I didn't get the feeling her past was resolved. Too much talk of 'I will make them see I was right' and all. As if she wanted to belong, yet couldn't.

Frankly, I never liked the idea that Kreia participated in the Mandalorian Wars at all. I mean why would she

Oh OK, I did some more digging. I apologize, SSgtSniper, because you did in fact quoted. A bit out of context, I might add. I wasn't careful on your "the sisters do talk about her" part. With a nudge from The Architect I found this scene (262-siscut1). {Gameplay Programmer: Scene opens with one sister staring out at the empty hangar bay. Give it a few seconds,} Sis 2: {Concerned}Has there been any word of her?

I wouldn't be so sure. Why don't you give us your quote then? As far as I can remember, they don't like my questioning at all. They just go 'it is not unusual for Echani children to bear the face of their mother' with . If I press forward I get to challenge them in duel. No "shame". And definitely no "betrayal", Dyan originally was wandering about. Betrayal was that of her "father" and not her "mother". She just bears her face, that's it. But it's her face that reminds others of their father's disloyalty. Here I will end with a half-quote I stumbled upon, when searching for quotes in the post before. {Angry at presumption}"To claim to know anything of {what lays in sisters' hearts when they look upon their sister} is conceit..." :cool:

No, but the sisters do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, but no. Both are mistaken. Brianna tells you herself. It took me some time to find it, but here it is. (Influence: Success) My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path. ... He went to war to be with the one he loved, but not the one he had pledged himself to. He was disloyal. ... I am the mark of that disloyalty. It is said that such things run in the blood, and I have fought long to prove that this is not so. Mark that Yusanis is the betrayer not Kae for he betrayed his wife and their family. Still, this does not disprove Kae = Kreia, but it doesn't support it either. It does seem interesting that with certain people it's all about "betrayal", though. With some betrayal runs in blood, while others just need to hold the knowledge of betrayal. "

Schmarth, I think the quote I cited is more of a personal note of who Kreia actually was than what Darth Traya represents. OK, let me elaborate further on what I think happened. "Know that there was once a Darth Traya." I think Kae (or whoever) was betrayed in heart by loved ones, exiled by Jedi Order and in her despair and hopelessness she fell to the dark side. She somehow made it to Malachor V, found her new purpose alongside Sion and Nihilus and assumed her title as Darth Traya. In time her hatred and rage subsided and yet she felt no satisfaction from killing I-wonder-how-many. "And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose." So she gave up on her dark side. Sion and Nihilus of course weren't happy and stripped her of her powers. And in darkness she realized the truth about the Force and found a purpose to make others realize it too if not to kill the force herself. Meet Kreia (I don't speak latin, but "she who believes" or somesuch?). With Exile's help she learns Jedi Masters still live. Then on Dantooine she revels herself, shows them the truth and assumes her role as Darth Traya once more, teaching the Exile to trust no one. Assumes, because I don't think the masters are dead, not really. This is for LS. DS Exile would actually follow Kreia's own past closely. Exiled by Jedi, giving up on Force and then falling to the dark. Then on Dantooine comes: "If by killing these Jedi, if you achieved any measure of peace." and how you learned the wrong lesson. I suppose Atris assumes her role as Darth Traya here. Either way Exile ends "gray-ish". I know it's far-fetched and I don't think it answers your question really, so sorry.

Then you fail to understand my point. Of course you knew, because you assumed Revan's character once. But his voice would then be all the evidence if Kreia didn't name him. (Unless he tells you himself if your influence with him is high.) With several members it's no brainier what their names are. Surprisingly enough it is for some. Obsidian I guess conceived names to be something important we don't share with just everyone (i.e. who uses his/her name given at birth on the board anyway). Names can tell stories on their own. Of our past. Honestly, I for one was surprised to read even Goto was not what it appeared to be. With "Atton" we were hinted "that's not his name". Was he supposed to be Carth's son? I've also become suspicious of why you can tell Bao you don't remember him (just a mech, I know; but still). You never learn much about Kreia's past either. I guess it's obvious she once was highly regarded among Jedi, though unconventional in her beliefs. She is conveniently 'passionate' whenever dealing with or just talking about Jedi Order. On the other hand she clearly didn't care about Sion and Nihilus much. Her story was all about bringing Truth to the Order. "Kreia? Oh... that is not her name." could only refer to that past of hers as Jedi, when she was known under Kae (or some other name). "Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn." My biggest dilemma here is who is she betraying? Not the Exile, I'd say. After all, she's the teacher. Is it the Order (LS ending) or even Kae herself? Don't misunderstand me: what Kae represented died when she was exiled and thus Kreia emerged. Hence Nitscheian self-fulfilling destruction of Kreia. I know (?) there's no real proof who Kreia was per se. It' just that some stories around Kae and Handmaiden are very convenient to believe so, so I agree. And I know there are people out there who say 'if it doesn't say I don't buy'. But that's just what I like about K2. That it raises more questions than brings answers. I always hated games that bring you everything on a silver plate.

Heyya, I don't know what "community" decided, but I can tell you I was convinced Kreia and Arren Kae are one and the same persona on spot. On my first playthrough I thought there was more to her character then I was explicitly told. She just couldn't have been exiled because she was Revan's first teacher. I mean all others should have been, too. And Revan came back to her only after she was exiled, so she couldn't had known Revan was following her teachings. Then I stumbled upon I-don't-know-how-long a topic on Kreia = Kae and it all made sense when I played it the second time thorough. Now imagine she was betrayed when still Jedi Master by someone close (say, the Echani General himself) and reported to Jedi Council of having a child in secret. It would explain her despair and her turn to the dark side. It would also be the moment "betrayal" marked her so. I definitely disagree, Battlewookiee, "Darth Traya" is just a title, a role she assumed to finish her teachings, to come full circle. So Atris and the Masters wouldn't refer to this title, me thinks. Besides, how secretive Obsidian was with the (real) names of most of your companions?! Handmaiden and Disciple, obviously. We are told who hides under the Mandalorian suit only at the very end. I still don't know who "Atton" is. Anyone? Why would Kreia be any different? When I think of it, it makes me really suspicious of Bao. For a guy that elusively says "Yes, general?" only... Betcha those droids are fake too (fat one, certainly). I play pazaak for strange crystals only. : D