Surface Reflection

heres a tissue, ... umm... (so embarassing) .... there there....

Seen more combat. Some higher level dungeon. Mushroom monsters and giant trolls, twice as large as PCs. Ranged enemies stand in place and shoot until someone steps next to them and pummels them down. Giant trolls runs straight at player characters, stops, stands in place unmoving and just swings away. Player does the same. Later on some wurms just stand - hover in place and attack despite being able to fly while player group stands still around them and swings away. Spiders do the same, other creatures do the same. Zombies, ghosts... everyone. The whole of the combat at this moment is this: Standing in place and clicking on icons of skills and spells. Then maybe moving towards next enemy, stopping and then clicking on icons of spells and skills. Small groups of big groups of enemies, doesnt matter. Approach, stop, swing away. Pause a lot to see what the heck is going on. Click on icons more. The end effect is then worsened by how engagement works, which cripples the Ai, and it doesnt prevent the player from kiting and cheesing in ways not possible for Ai. If animations would be controlled by stats and skills and improved in the sense i mentioned, then characters movement speed could be diversified, special moves and abilities made to have a direct role in character physical performance in the gameplay - therefore combat made more fluid and therefore tactical, while increasing skills would benefit both the stat sheet and how a character actually performs in gameplay itself. Kiting would be greatly diminished as a side effect. As now you could actually have options and skills that influence whole of it. How character performs in combat physically, the "animations", should be controlled by stats and skills of the character. You click to attack but its him that does the actual attack. Its not anything strange. You only have complete full control over your character movement in action and fps games and such. Since both enemies and player characters would have these longer animations - or in fact - better movement in combat - there would be no need for frantic pausing all the bloody time. You still control the most of usual combat as a player but character are the ones that are actually performing moves, so they dodge, defend, achieve critical and so on. So it would all have a different pacing and rhythm then two groups bunched into each other faces in the middle of a hallway, going : Shbang-shbang-shbang-shbang! Enemies would dodge, move, circle too. You wouldn't be able just to walk-run your characters next to it one by one and pummel away, all standing there like wooden planks. Or... you can play the whole game standing next to enemies unmoving and swinging away by pressing icons in a tool bar.

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. As Quadrone said, PoE is feature complete. Any game that goes into beta (although the term has become increasingly misused) is formally feature complete. Its only an opinion of you two dumbasses who are no different then any other forum member so what you think about specifics of what devs are working on every day is as flatulent as a small amount of gas in the wind. Its defeatist in the sense that it is pointless. Doeasnt contribute anything to this discussion. It serves only thin blatant attempt to close the thread, by some cheap troll. Because telling him ok, yeah noted but its pointless and irrelevant isnt enough. apparently. Its not like he is telling me anything i dont know already. He is just dumb to imagine so. And i dont mean that as an insult... its just dumb. Thats really the proper descriptor. yeah sure. three months of bug fixing. :snort: bloody noobs... Sure, they will absolutely refuse to work on anything else for three moths. aha. Thats how game dev works. You get to beta, close everything and then fix bugs. haha! Have talents all been implemented yet? Anything else? No? well tough luck! Its all locked down baby! Wooo ... And i already said im not suggesting new features, only improvements. More animations. The basic block of gameplay in RT. But it seems youre also one that needs repeating everything twice. - watching some video of the latest build now,... seems talents are in, hopefully fully... three lions attack, run straight in front of someone,stop, growl, while player characters run close to them stop in place and swing away. more lions,more standing in place.... large humanoid groups all standing frozen in place swinging,.. more such fights in some mines, all stand in place and swing... even an archer stands in place while four characters go towards him and chop at him. thats it.

Dont be dumb. You said all that you have to say. Nothing else to add. Go away and spray those mewling acusations somewhere else. Pathetic.

You are just restating what you already said. And i addressed that already. Tangentially, neither you nor me nor any other ordinary member has any specific knowledge about what exactly they are improving and working on except squashing bugs, optimizations and balance. Its the usual fan pr. And one beta is much like another beta. You want to defeatist? Fine. Dully noted. Is there anything else i need to say about that? Plus, im not talking about adding new features but rather about connecting features already there and improving on whats already there. As i said this would actually help in balancing, Ai improvements and actual gameplay. etc, etc, etc repeatum ad infinitum

Im of a general opinion that all aspects of the game are being worked on and improved upon until final release - and then a few patches too. At the least. That was my real experience in extensive betas i was involved in so far, both for W2 and much more for D:OS. As i said, any little thing that would make the fighting look less like two wooden planks standing in place and swinging away at each other would be a plus. Its a simple intrinsic integral basic necesity in a game that has a big RT component. Not only a component but real time is its main gameplay form. It is so simple that if you cannot improve on it, - all the worse for the game. And as much as you can - the better. Its the difference between ok at best and ****ing awesome combat in this case. Again, im not even thinking about anything huge. More like improving on whats already there. And im merciful so im not going to go on about D:OS, im rather keeping it on the level of AoD an indie done by four people - one animator, or ToEE which is a bit older game now but had jumping spinning attacks, no less, for example. Of course this kind of a game has huge other parts that needed to be built ground up frst. The story, dialogues, characters, models, monsters, creatures, animals, the world, maps, locations, vegetation, rivers, houses, cities, dungeons, pots and pans and backgrounds, the works. Its only natural that other specific things arent already in the best possible stage and will be mproved upon as much as needed and possible. Animations are specific and hard to do and require a lot fo additional work but... thats what your game dev is. Its all difficult. But, you dont really have much choice here. I already said i know im saying this a bit too late in the production, but... anything that can be done in this sense will be a plus. If done right, minimalsitically as needed but where you really need it, it would directly improve or solve all the current biggest talked about problems, engagement, kiting, and it would actually help Ai since situation would be much clearer for a program or algorithm- since these animations would be governed by stats and mechanics not frantic player twitching - so the chaotic mess would be actually reduced, threfore more menagable. Easier to calculate.

Seems to me that if more realistic approach is taken such style of fighting should naturally not only have greater accuracy, but also bigger chance to crit since that style doesnt rely on brute force but speed and precision, and the weapon is used for defense too so such style should improve parrying. I dont think its anything complicated. Could be easily solved through talents. Either general ones or only such sub-class specific. Would play very well with the PoE Rogues improved version. But ciphers and several other classes would also find it fitting and interesting.

Cant say i remember much from NWN but ill take your word for it. I think a lot can be done with small things if they are properly used. Engagement could be presented very clearly through such visual entaglement of two oponents, shifting, parring, dodging and maybe circling one another. - with additional highlight toggle key that would show extra visual pointers if necesary. >Especially if only fighters (and barbarians maybe) had that ability, as i suggested in the engagement thread. If you just add different movement speeds based on stats like whatever attribute governs speed of movement, endurance and health you can relatively easily show the status of each fighter just by the way he or it moves. Slowing down when specific amount of endurance and or heath get take away, or you reach appropriate low level.

There are only issues i say that are in the op. I wrote it, i should know. How much anyone is pausing in their gameplay videos is irrelevant and i probably didnt even watch that one. Or are you claiming i watched whatever videos you think i watched? That would be funny. Teachning me how to watch video on youtube isnt exactly making you seem too bright to start with. The second is - argument from ignorance. and what you remember or not is just so incredibly irrelevant i cannot find proper words to describe it.

I think it would be appropriately important then. barbarians could have it too i guess, being front liners too, but of smaller capability then trained fighters. Similar as fighters already can engage up to three oponents while other classes can engage only one enemy - i believe...? Rogues dont need it simply because they already have a big arsenal and they are not meant to hold the line but trip, strike, crit and avoid danger, not stand toe to toe with enemies. Alternatively, all other classes and or creatures should have drastically lower chances to get engagement and or lower chance to score disegagement attack. But i think clearly it separating from other creatures and classes would also work fine. Then you wouldnt have situations where you get six disegagement attacks from any enemy if you went close to some group, or that other stuff that was mentioned. As for kiting, that cannot be dampered by a mellee skill anyway. Obviously. - I used a few a bit too rough expressions above, but that was not meant in that way. Cant edit now. Not a native english speaker so a few slip by sometimes if im rushing or trying to cut it short. Meant to say that it doesnt make much sense to give engagement capability to beetles or every poor bandit, or zombies or many, many other such creatures.. It felt from a start like something that requires skill and training - therefore very fit for a fighter. And it doesnt exactly seem appropriate that wizards and druids have it too, for example, or any of the newer classes. Which all have their own special abilities.

TB animations ... are rare breed and a newer occurence. Animation frames, you mean like what... 60 per second instead of 25? Frames of what? care to be clear about what exactly you are speaking? TB animations are by necesity also mostly static idle animations, except in case of attacks of opportunity and dodging or defending vs te same, which is also a newer phenomenon in TB. Then they need to be executed in speed that will satisfy expectations of such moves. Which is practically real time speed or close enough to look good. Isnt it ridiculous that TB games have better and more diverse real time animations of movement and combat then a game that is supposed to be a Real time with pause game? btw, ill stress again that i am expecting that this will get much improved during the remaining beta stage. Animations in RT - need to be as fast as they need to be. Yes. Liek... as fast as such combat is in reality? or close enough so it seems like it? (actually it needs to be a bit slower then real life reality so it doesnt look like chaos and all the players can get whats going on, even with pause) I mean, you wouldnt do animations in a way that wont fit with the game.... right?

Ahh... thats how you quote around here. I was wandering why i cant easily split parts of a quote. That looks weird. Anyone knows why my spellchecker doesnt work here? Oh, in that case i completely agree. But its not a subject i was trying to discuss. Just clarifying things from my angle to try to avoid thread going into wrong and pointless directions because someone misunderstood something. I already see it. For quite some tme Its only the sub-genre natural progression and evolution. Yes, it would need to be very, very well seriously pre planned from ground up. But it wouldnt require anything that doesnt practically exist already. You should see what i have in mind for my (fairly vapurware) imaginary TB game... There would be some serious jaw dropping and drooling if i ever do it. Yeah, the answer was a bit rhetorical too It would be pretty fabolous, especially since it would be all governed by stats and skills and mechanics working under the hood. Much more fitting for a cRPG game then some ludicrous nonsense of animations that are always under player control... Dragon Age...? No! Nooooooo! Aaaarghhh! ... ... oh... Origins? Phew...! ok...that one was mostly bearable. Gave me a scare there... Holding your shield up is certainly something i would hope a modern game can reach. :stare: Not sure what you mean by being scorched by flames into ash.... ever played Fallout? No need for any flying jumps like in peter jackson movies. //Not even a Monk leaping with foot first into combat from a distance? Or running in real close, dashing up some sand or dust on the ground, and landing a Van Damme Roundhouse kick to the oppressors face? Or a Rogue, first dodging a sword strike, and then using the leverage of the enemy's body to "Leap" or "Jump" (Escape) away from the opponent. A Barbarian "Wild Sprinting", like a Rugby Player, plus swinging his two axes back and forth across like oars, or even "berserker" gung-ho Rambo leaping. Oh a Monk for sure, we had leg and arm kicks in fallout ffs...right? Here they would just be a bit improved and fully in RTwP. Then you add closing the distance animation or two, avoidance and dodging animation or two, with a few jump combinations. Easy peasy. Sand or dust in the face could be a Rogue little trick - and you dont even need to have any actual sand or dust modeled at all. You can just use a small spell like visual effect for it. Van damme... im not too sure about that.... ;P Or any ther way too epic stunts like leaping and cutting off dragons heads in flight. or jumping over someones hands or all around and over Eliphants.... But more plausible and belivable stuff would be cool. I always imagine a barbarian to be looking and moving like Conan the Symerian - the one from original comics, to be sure. But yeah, a few other versions of the type would be very welcome for diversity. Cant always have Conan... damnit... Just depends on what ratio of strength - agility - stamina you choose in character creation, eh? Dwarves, btw, would just stand and take it. Like a little stone barrels they are in DnD. And dish more back ofcourse. Isnt that the truth. haha... Oh yeah. Maybe not for PoE itself (although i would like something like that, maybe in some harder mode) but speaking generally, yes. Or whatever other appropriate stat some other cRPG uses for such stuff. / However... i would prefer if we get back on track of my original suggestion. which was about how something of this kind could be realistically done in PoE - in a way fitting for PoE specifically. Someone mentioned money and kickstarter and this and that before? Im pretty sure they wont just stand there and refuse to invest more of their own money in the game if the situation demands it. I wouldnt be exactly surprised if they already burned through what they got from kictsarter.

No, its only you parroting your own misunderstood nonsense while failing to understand or actually read a single thing i am saying in direct reply to your incorrect and quite ludicrous assmptions. What i said makes your strawman arguments and those ridiculous invented assumptions irrelevant. That you cannot understand such a simple and direct answer is not my problem. For christ sake... i even quoted three sentences where i argue that these animations should be depandant on mechanics and serve to make mechanics more invested and integrated into all portions of the game and you reply to me about some real time game like youre talking about some fps action game. There is a concept of time in TB. Its represented through TURNS. And... in a REAL TIME WITH PAUSE cRPG games all kinds of animations are constantly happening without direct input of the player. You dont understand even these basics? ffs.. How is it even possible to formulate a question like this adressing a sentence where i say "hey... whadya know? eh?".... "Hats of to mr Cain?" Are you that special? Also, did a small gnome tell you i somehow dont know where mr Cain is working? Why would i even seriously consider anyone like you at all? He may not be an animator but he is a legendary grand master of cRPG design, with - of course - direct involvement in ToEE - about which i was talking there. As i said already - the point is that even a turn based game, which doesnt have almost any requirements for real time gameplay animations since there the time is abstracted into TURNS - such animations improved the overall feel of the game. Therefore in Real Time with Pause cRPG it would have even bigger and better effect. Kids would be able to get this. Unless we are to listen to nonsensical people like you flying off on some tangents that your own head invented based on your ludicrous misunderstanding and even more nonsensical assumptions and lack of basic knowledge about cRPGs of any kind. And then get a game in 2015 where two characters stand infront of each other and swing away. Since you wont be able to understand even this and will reply with more repeatition of nonsense you invent for yourself dont expect any particular answer anymore. ... Since this, contrary to any sane reason or common sense will probably mean that other poster will somehow think that you had any point ill nail it down a bit harder by repeating it all a second time. How else would you represent a real time in your video game if not through visuals? telepathically? by sounds over black screen? smoke signals? - you are able to understand that real time gameplay can be only represented thorugh visuals, riiiiight? Its not about graphics, ...genious, but actually improving real time of the game by using all these new and flashy improved mechanics for something actually imbedded into the real time part. - through skills and stats and mechanics! - in a Real Time WITH PAUSE game of this kind all kinds of animations are constantly happening without direct input of the player. Ever played any DnD game? Ever played any cRPG? Ever?

I was under the rule to have moderators check my first few posts as a newly registered member so i couldnt reply in time, but now you can see two replies made previously. That should clarify a few things. One very important thing i want to emphasize is that i am not arguing for a super awesome mega perfect animations for every possible movement. I know that was not intentional but thats practically an argument by absurdity falacy. If you cant make it the most fantastically awesome then you should not do anything at all - kind of a thing. I would think that any improvement in that regard from current state until final release and maybe a few patches after that - would be a plus. If things get 10% better after a month or two, then after more deveopment they get 15 % better then that. - "we" get a better game. Rght? Thats my actual reasoning. The update about what crazy amount of resources and time animations require was an eye openning even for me. Im keeping my expectations down to earth. But, this is still a beta with quite some time to go. Well... lets go over a few things from the comments anyway. heh... how else would you represent a real time in your video game if not through visuals? telepathically? by sounds over black screen? smoke signals? As i said in the very post that you responded to... - "paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all." - "The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation." - "All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause"." and also: - "However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development." i think that covers all your subsequent comments too. Well yeah, but thats a hypothetical perfect super awesome execution of this idea thats a bit too fantastical for me, or PoE at this point. Any improvement would be a good improvement in this case. As i said above im not suggesting some insane proposition or basically, anything that is out of the reach of Obsidian studios. And frankly, if some guys like Iron Towres studios can make additional and very cool animations for their TB game - all connected to stats, then Obsidian surely can too. If not then they should hire IT sole animator to do it on the side for them. the guy is very good, btw. Why would you need to take down a dragon? Like what...wrestle him down? Tackle gibberlings? You would do whatever you do usually in the game. With a few extra moves. Holding your shield up is certainly something i would hope a modern game can reach. :stare: Not sure what you mean by being scorched by flames into ash.... ever played Fallout? No need for any flying jumps like in peter jackson movies. Its not that complicated. Usual attacks wouldnt have any special animations. In case a character is holding a shield up - he just gets damaged if he fails his block roll. No need to have a special animation where the weapon is bypassing the shield and actually cutting or making wounds or stabbing anything. When a specific critical or dodge roll suceeds and fires off there would be animation for it. Because thats special. That animation in turn would not disrupt any other clear hit from other oponents in case of there being more of them. So if you would be performing a dodge, for example, from one enemy... the other would roll his attack against you and either achieve a hit without any additional animations or a miss. If the second enemy would score a critical while you are dodging then that animation would disrupt the dodge animation and execute whatever it needs to in that case. Its not really anything extraordinary to see a character fall or crouch maybe when crited. Its not rocket science. If the starting idea is actually down to earth and as simple as possible. Or slowing down visibly, for example.... and maybe making wider lurching attacks which can be borrowed from other classes animations of the same kind. I don't agree about the animations, but the design itself. Having re-read what the OP has said it's possible that I don't actually agree with what he is saying, but I do think that Obsidian haven't really taken advantage of the RT side of the game as well as they could have. Just read what i am saying instead of what someone else is saying i am saying while under wrong impressions. You might wanna re-read it again maybe. Additionally... Lets all take a moment and remember how super cool animaions were in Temple of Elemental Evil when it came out. And that was a TB game that has much less requirements to present real time movement, unlike RTwP. Yet even in such a case it all looked and felt and played much better then any of the previous such games. If only Obsidian had somene from Troika to give them soom bost and good advices in that area too... hey... whadya know? eh? Hats off for mr Cain.

Thats because Sensuki read all of my post. I adressed that in it, you should acknowledge it. Its all simple and obvious. Yet - the matter still stands. Its a basic issue with RTwP kind of design. DFor it to really work very well you need both parts of it to be very good, not just one. Furthermore - it wouldnt be any kind of uncontrolable movement. I directly argue for all this vidsuals to be connected to specific feats, abilities and skills. That is also written in the post above.

If engagement is an ability only fighters have, it would be easier to design a good Ai too, since the whole of the situation would be more reasonable and logical.

It isnt just that some devs may prefer TB which then translates to the game mechanics. I wouldnt really acuse someone so knowledgable about cRPGs as some of the older Devs are of that. Its more the case of it simply being true by itself. As i argued for new Torment game when the time was for arguing, as soon as you have stats in the game, and as soon as you want them to atually matter - Turn Based fits such design much better because it enhances the importance of stats just by itself, naturally. Which then fits very, very well with cRPG types of games who provide players with gameplay influenced through character stats, rather then player reaction times. Ofcourse, whether the player should have more influence on gameplay then stats is another matter. RTwP is a design that tries to do that, while still using stats as imprtant part of the gameplay. But, in order for it to really fully function, you really need to invest a lot of time, money and resources to make the real time component really good - but connected to stats and mechanics, of course. Maybe, since they delayed the game, some of this time can be used to improve the Real Time part of the combat too? Maybe...they just didnt have time to get to it fully yet? Lets hope so. The purpoose of this post is simply to turn attention, to remind everyone about a very important angle to pay attention to, which very understandably may be overlooked due to enormous amounts of other features, related to "Baldurs Gate - D&D" kind of cRPG mechanics, stats, enviroenments, etc and all.

There is a specific feature i saw in all so far released gameplay videos. That feature compaunds with a few other ones, one being the way engagement is working now, to create combat gameplay that is not really good, inspiring or engaging. The thing is Obsidian devs,... that you kinda forgot to pay a lot of attention to the REAL TIME part of the combat. There is practically none of it. Its all just pause-pause-pause-pause. You are paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all. If you really want to have a great real time with pause combat and gameplay - you really, really need to invest a lot of time and effort into the REAL TIME section of the combat. By that i specifically mean this: Your characters in this game close the distance to each other and then they just stand there and swing at each other, interupted by frequent pausing - while they just stand woodenly, not moving, not dodging, not doing anything at all. Any action and reaction is simply transfered through stats and calculations. Not through physical movement of the characters or creatures. Sure they move when the player makes them move around, but thats just walking to a different-same spot and then doing the same thing all over again. Visually. The combat is really hampered by the animations style and overall visual approach. The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation. PoE currently uses the old DnD "characters stand in place in front of one another and swing away", which pretty much ruins any organic flow a real time combat should exhibit. But there is actually no need for that anymore. That old presentation was there because the technology didnt alow for anything much better. Now it does. There should be some movement to those bodies, some should be lurching, heaving, stepping around, jumping back and forth etc. Barbarians should be ponderous, swinging with wild swings or strikes, Rogues agile and lean, fast moving, dodging. All combined with swings of attacks and defense moves. All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause". I had hoped that the game will take such approach when i saw all those guys experimenting with weapons around Obsidian offices in that old update... but it seems you guys were just taking in how the weapons move. Not how the people holding them move in combat. However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development. On the other hand... you will not be able to make combat really interesting, engaging or new in any way unless you do it.

Hey doc, :bites and chews a delicious carrot: Hows the life of helpful enthusiastic member been treating you? Its so cool isnt it? You wanna a real elegant simple solution for engagement? Well... just read on baby... First, i dont expect ill be making a lot of posts here. But i noticed youre all stuck and nobody is seeing the tree from all that forest anymore. And i do have a sort of investment in this game. A future one. Thats why im bothering to write this. You guys arent improving anything like this. Mr Sawyer, devs. When i first read about the game and engagement mechanic, for some reason i understood that only the "soldier" builds, our front line fighters, will have this ability. It makes perfect sense if one is actually trying to improve this class over its D&D progenitor. But to my amazement... i lately discovered that you Devs gave engagement to every single thing in the game??? Why in the seven hells would you do that? Thats the very reason why the gameplay is such a mess as it is now, from what i gather. The solution is simple. Give engagement only to fighters. No other class should have it, nor any of the monsters - unless, UNLESS it is really, really, really necesary for some very, very, very, very, very, very good reason in some very specific case. All the other classes already have their own "thing". Wizards have magic which is immensly diverse, rogues have all those attacks and ability to easily disengage, barbarians have their rushes and rages, whatever, druid have whatever they have, rangers have their ... pets, Monks have wounds, etc, etc, etc. And then you gave them all the engagement ability too, on top of everything else? :shakes head: Give engagement only to fighters. That removes all the problems mentioned in this thread and Sensukis threads about engagement. All the problems that stem from this single fact that you gave engagement to all creatures and classes ON TOP of what they already have, and in many cases completely nonsensically, such as giving it to animals and any creature at all. That would make fighters have their own unique thing which effectively and very measurably makes them a much more valuable asset to have in a party. It wont make the combat really great, because for that you would need to do another "thing" that PoE is missing so badly. But that is probably too much for Obsidian as a studio, especially at this stage. On that - in another thread.