Sartoris

All of those, though not necessarily all at once. A wizard can use his magic to enhance himself or he could have trained. Maybe he does both. Different academies may have different priorities and requirements for their students(a military academy would likely put high focus on combat ability, both magical and physical. An academy focusing on enchanting and research into "civilian" uses of magic? Not so much) Your problem is that you treat these options as mutually exclusive, when there is no reason for them to be. Also consider that at this point, lore is still in flux. Lore isn't some immutable, pre-existing monolithic structure. Especially not for minor details that haven't been fully explained yet. Lastly, none of that is in conflict with wizards having an academic and studious mindset. I'm not even sure where you're getting that idea or why you believe it would be. It's equivalent to saying all fighters must be dumb because they focus on physical combat and discipline. They favour debate and knowledge seeking(which, depending on the field, might be quite strenuous), it's not the only thing they ever do. And it tells you nothing about what they do in their free time. Thanks for laying out your position. I respect it, but I don't particularly like it. I hope the developers consider very carefully what their attribute and mechanics decisions have on how a player interprets what is going on in the world. Currently, I feel that the design is not intutive and does not at all feel like the mechanics of an IE game. I'm principally interested in Pillars of Eternity because the developers stated that it was designed to be a spiritual successor to BG/IWD. This is what I feel like no other game currently in development is offering. Planescape: Tides of Numenera will mostly focus on story with combat being a distant secondary consideration. Wasteland 2 is turn-based and not in a fantasy setting. I will probably play both of those games, but neither will give me the nostalgia feels for BG2 like I hoped Pillars of Eternity would. For me, what was so promising about this game was that it was going to try to bring back the experience of playing IE games. I can get a good story with other games (although I am very pleased that we can expect good things in this department), so I didn't need that as much. Pillars of Eternity is the only current hope that I know of for those players who want as close as possible an IE experience. That includes the good and bad of that engine. I really hope they don't carry through the system as it is currently designed as it is so far from IE that it detracts greatly from my experience.

Ok then so when the Might stacking wizard hits a beetle with his longsword he is in someway interacting with some internal soul energy that then causes more damage to the creature? Is this the same for the fighter then? It isn't his muscles (seeing as athletics has no effect on combat damage) its his soul energy. Well ok then. So given that having a fighter with zero points in athetics has no effect on combat I guess we have to conclude that in this game your body's physical ability to effect the world isn't represented by the attribute system. This is the the road the developers want to take then ok. It is their game. However, this doesn't meet my expectations and I am very dissappointed with the current system. As I have done previously in this thread I think there are ways the developers could alter the attribute system to resolve this problem to my (and maybe others?) satisfaction

Just because they can use magic to improve their physical ability they suddenly have to use it for absolutely everything? The problem isn't the explanation, the problem is in how you chose to interpret it. I don't know, do they? The entire thing was your idea in the first place! Who says that he does more damage with his sword(or whatever he uses) because of his strength? What's stopping a mighty wizard from using some low level magic to improve his strikes instead? In fact, for some physical weapons more strength won't even help you much. Especially not for firearms. Pressing the trigger harder will just break it off. On the other hand, careful use of magic to strengthen the barrel and make the blackpowder explodier... Might stacking increases physical ability, but that doesn't mean physical fitness. Not in a world with magic. Can you just please state what you are trying to say? I realize you disagree with me, but I don't really understand specifically what it is you disagree with. Do you think the in-game lore establishes that Wizards constantly use their magical ability to increase their use of physical weapons? If so where is that stated or alluded to? Or, do you think that Wizards training includes a significant focus on physical ability as you indicated previously? If so how does that not conflict with the lore stating that wizards are academicly-inclined, studious, favor debate, and knowledge seeking? All I'm asking you to do is state your position instead of simply choosing to disagree with mine. If you have valuable thoughts on game design to share please do so. I think its a bit of a waste of my time to simply defend my suggestions against someone who isn't willing to offer their own.

Er, what? That has little to no impact on my points. Besides, none of that says anything about a wizards typical physical fitness or what kind of training is considered part of academical magic. They could easily fit in mandatory physical excercise classes for various reasons.(promoting good health, the idea of Mens sana in corpore sano, etc.) You can be academical and studious and work out 3 times a week easily. In fact, it's probably a good idea if you don't get much excercise during work. In a world as dangerous as the one of PoE, i wouldn't even be surprised to find plenty of combat classes, particularly at a research focused academy. Better be prepared for those field trips. Then there's probably military wizarding academies as well, at least if the militaries of this world have any sense. Then who staffs the high-power magic research facility? Might stacking Wizards aren't necessarily the type that also spends time at the gym in their off hours. They are the guys with the really big fireballs.(you could even say they have huge balls which are on fire) They stack Might, not Strength. Also, your last supposition is just conjecture. Yes, a different system could make itemisation more interesting. It could also make it less interesting depending on how it is handled. Your sword is likely to just end up glued to the fighters hand till he gets something better, then discarded, unless interrupting is so important that it ends up glued to the wizards hand. Ok up until now I have given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed your objections were grounded in a desire to improve and discuss aspects about the game and not intended to simply disagree with ideas using any method you can conjure up. I'm still willing to believe that, but I am getting the sense that you want to disagree with me simply to argue. Quoted above you have offered two conflicing solutions for why Might stacking Wizards could make sense in the game. Neither of these two solutions are supported anywhere in the in-game lore. So... I've made a very easy to understand point that the lore available in the game needs more work in order to support Might stacking wizards. I think it is very obvious that this is the case. This is even evident in your responses quoted above, you have proposed two different, and conflicting, lore solutions that the developers could choose to implement. So can we at least agree that this aspect needs more work?

That's a great question. My take on it is that the developers seem to have fundementally changed significant systems we are familar with from the IE games and delivered different systems which some people (me included) are not as happy with. This wouldn't really bother me that much if the game itself wasn't proposed as a spiritual successor to IE games. I would have much prefered they leave in place the complicated IE systems instead of replacing many of them with their own equally complex ones. I reailze that they do not have the D&D license, however I think the developers could have put in place systems that were much more IE-like than they have done. That being said, for the most part, the art style is spot on.

Who says that he does more damage with his sword(or whatever he uses) because of his strength? What's stopping a mighty wizard from using some low level magic to improve his strikes instead? In fact, for some physical weapons more strength won't even help you much. Especially not for firearms. Pressing the trigger harder will just break it off. On the other hand, careful use of magic to strengthen the barrel and make the blackpowder explodier... Might stacking increases physical ability, but that doesn't mean physical fitness. Not in a world with magic. Ok. You have successfully created a reason why Might stacking wizards would do more damage. Now if we could just get the game itself to give us a reason then we would have a solution to this problem. Athough it would be suboptimal in my opinion. Suboptimal because that would mean that Might in the hands of a Fighter does indeed increase physical prowess whereas Might with a Wizard increases the intensity of his magic and also requires that casting classes are constantly wizarding virtually all interactions they have with the physical world. I will say that I would much prefer a system like the following: Fighter: Might increases Damage Intelligence increases Area of Effect and Duration Wizard: Might increases Interrupt Intelligence increases Damage Perception increases Area of Effect and Duration

Honestly it kinda amazes me and astonishes me that this is STILL heavily discussed. Just goin on the record here real quick: when I mention Muscle wizards or including an easter egg of them, it's satire. I'm openly mocking those of you who cannot seem to fathom that there are other forms of "might" and "power" beyond physical strength, or that wielding a sword is all about physical strength (if I must, I'll start citing respectable and knowledgeable people on the topic of swordplay who'll tell you otherwise). I can't help but feel like some people are TRULY convinced that the developers of PoE are saying high might = you have a six pack, and that people like myself who turn this into a running gag are serious about how our wizards have washboard abs and beat up all enemies with their muscles. This is such a tiny tiny TINY insignificant issue that a simple vocabulary lesson could solve, and I'm sure some of the devs are facepalming when they read these forums, realizing one of the biggest complaints isn't one of balance or bugs or animations, but of wizards possibly and allegedly having muscles. Although I do think that this specific topic is not the greatest issues facing this game at the moment. I do believe that the problems the community is, and has, had regarding the Might attribute speaks to broader issues of game design. Unfortunatly I do not believe this problem can be solved with a simple vocabulary lesson since the in-game lore establishes that wizards are studious, academicly inclined characters and given that a Might stacking wizard does more damage with a physical weapon. From my previous post I see two ways to solve this issue. Change the lore to indicate physically powerful wizards are also good at the wizarding profession or allow what attributes effect what mechanics to vary by class. I strongly prefer the second option, as I believe this change would potentially have follow on effects that improve itemization.

You want your wizards fragile compared to weapon users? Super easy: Give all the martial arts professions a skill at lvl1 that sound like this: You deal 50% more damage with all weapons. BAM! solved all your problems. I never said I want wizards to be fragile compared to weapon users. The only preference I have stated is that I don't want the games wizards to be anything but internally lore consistent. If the game establishes lore that indicates that wizards ability to have high damaging spells is related to their physical prowess in some way, then that is fine by me. I can live with and enjoy that game. Since you and Azrael Ultima seem to be having trouble understanding that the in-game lore establishes that the wizardry profession cultivates studious, academically inclined practioners I will again quote and highlight the relevant lore from character creation.

Then who staffs the high-power magic research facility? Might stacking Wizards aren't necessarily the type that also spends time at the gym in their off hours. They are the guys with the really big fireballs.(you could even say they have huge balls which are on fire) They stack Might, not Strength. Also, your last supposition is just conjecture. Yes, a different system could make itemisation more interesting. It could also make it less interesting depending on how it is handled. Your sword is likely to just end up glued to the fighters hand till he gets something better, then discarded, unless interrupting is so important that it ends up glued to the wizards hand. If you have read my full post you know exactly why Might stacking wizards must necessarily be the type that also spends time at the gym in their off hours. When you put a physical weapon in the hands of a wizard that stacks Might he will do more damage than that same weapon in the hands of a wizard that stacks Intelligence. What I am pointing out is that because Might stacking leads to increased physical damage across all classes then one effect of Might stacking is increased Strength. It may also be the case that Might stacking increases soul power or something like that and it is this increased soul power that causes the bigger fireball. I don't have any conceptual problem with that. However, because that same Might stacking on that same character causes more damage with a longsword or other physical weapon, I think it also clearly establishes that Might stacking increases physical ability. I will reiterate that the only problem I have with this is that it is not internally consistent with the lore the game establishes. On your second point about itemization. Of couse if the design was implemented poorly it could make things less interesting. But that is true for any and all game mechanics. Both the current ones in Pillars of Eternity and possible ones the devs could implement. If you have a specific arguement against why the itemization benefits I lay out would not actually be benefits I would like to hear them. If however, the only response is that varying what stats effect what mechanics by class may not work due to poor implemention by the devs I don't believe you've made a case for why that proposed system would be any better or worse than the current one, given that the current itemization system could also be implemented poorly. I would like to say that I haven't seen enough of the game to establish if is currently is implemented poorly or not.

I think one of the key class design features that made IE games combat work as well as it did was that your melee/archer characters could effectively be put on cruise control for a little while. They would wail away on the assigned enemy and you could be assured that they were doing an acceptable amount of damage and/or providing appropriate interrupts/penalties for their combatant. This allowed you as the player to focus on making tactical considerations with your casters and other melee classes that required specific positioning e.g rogues. I realize that the designers want all classes to be balanced and all builds to be viable. I don't see why this means that the player themselves must be required to devote the same amount of mental energy to each character. Having five or six characters all requiring as much mental devotion as a normal BG/IWD casting class seems simply exhausting to play and I'm not looking forward to it. Moreover, there are plenty of people that simply wont be as interested in the combat. Giving them the option of running a very melee heavy party, thus reducing the mental tax of combat, would possibly be a very welcome play style for these folks. Finally, if many of the melee classes abilities are turned into toggles or instant fire and forget type buffs then that would present a very different play mode for those classes. Currently, all classes have a wide selection of abilities that cause various positive and negative status effects or damage to the enemy, but the gameplay is similar for multiple classes. Select the character and pick the skill you want to "cast," wait till the character can "cast" again and rinse repeat until all baddies are dead. If melee classes instead were about picking the "combat mode" and self-buffs i.e. berserk, etc that fit the tactical considerations of the fight and then required only a limited mental engagement from the player it would present a very different playstyle than the game's casting classes.

I think many poster's in favor of the option of having muscle-bound wizards are missing out on a key detail. The game needs to be internally consistent and currently the in-game lore does not support wizards devoting a large portion of their time and energy to physical pursuits. Consider this. Here is the description of wizards from the character creator (thanks to the multiple Let's Play videos and the pause button). I've bolded the relevant words. When I saw this when the first videos surfaced I assumed that the in-game wizard class conformed to the standard rpg definition of a wizard being a studious, possibly wise, somewhat frail, academic-oriented, arcane-casting, robe-wearing, character that shoots the standard fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his butt. Lo and behold I had yet to meet the curious Might stat and its equally quixotic implementation in Pillars of Eternity's poorly designed attribute system. Some of you may be saying, "Don't worry Sartoris, perhaps the Sawyer god is simply telling you that the Might stat for a wizard somehow is attributable to his soul power and not a reference to the size of his rocking biceps." But alas you are deceived! My might stacking wizard also does more damage with a mighty greataxe of beetle-bashing when his Might is increased. Thus for the game to be internally consistent Might must mean that my blows are striking harder, cutting deeper, and being all-around physically better. Yet, the lore indicates that the typical wizard adventurer would not have a significant focus on physical attributes, given that he has had to devote so much of his life to academic research, inquiry, debate, and dissemination of knowledge. Now you may say all of this is all right. Perhaps the beefy wizards people will undoubtedly create are simply the outliers of normal wizardy (already a very niche profession of civilization). I would be ok with this as it is similar to creating a dumb but strong wizard in BG/IWD. Except that in those game it hurts your character in a very lore consistent manner. If it takes years of intense mental work to train as a wizard, leaving little time for physical activity, then if you are the type of guy that just has to hit the gym every Friday (gotta get my gains bro!) it makes sense that you will suffer in performing as a wizard. Now, I see two ways out of this abysmal lore hole that Obsidian has dug for themselves here. They can change the lore of a wizard, thus requiring a large percentage of their eventual game buyers to drastically alter their perception of what they expect a wizard to be, or they can alter what effects the stats have depending on what class you are. Let me address the first option as it is easy to see why it is not the preferable option. It is hard to change the expectations of the game buying public, especially given that nearly all rpg games ever made have conformed to the studious wizard archetype. The visceral reaction among the currently posting populous can easily confirm that. If you should need further evidence, venture to rpgcodex.net. The amount of hatred for this attribute system is hot enough to forge a dagger intended to separate Josh Sawyer from his immortal soul. So how about a fix everyone can be comfortable with. For a wizard, intelligence should increase damage, perception should increase duration and area of effect, and might should increase interrupt. Under this scheme I think everyone could be happy. Before you hit the "reply" button to launch your tirade against this perfectly workable solution consider the following. I think this help, but by no means will solve, the itemization issue people are worried about. Under this scheme both a wizard and a fighter can use a +Might longsword, but for the wizard it will help him cause more interrupts vice directly damage. This makes the same item due two completely different things for different characters in your party. That kind of itemization is sorely lacking in most modern rpgs and would go a long way to making itemization in Pillars of Eternity more interesting during the current playthrough as you gave the item to different party members and during later games when you chose different party compositions. To summarize my thoughts: Might stacking wizards are not internally lore consistent. A system where different attributes have different mechanical effects depending on the class of your character could alleviate this problem. Such a system could contribute to interesting itemization in a very unique and fun way.