Njall

I don't really think the D&D 3e route would help, sorry. I get the draw of getting more talents, but one of the biggest problems of the fighter's abilities is the lack of scaling. Riddling them with a bunch of stuff that's, at high levels, weaker than the stuff they're already getting, that also doesn't scale and isn't even unique wouldn't do them any good. They need unique, synergistic and powerful abilities, not a bunch of tiny, nonstacking bonuses.

Yeah, but that's because fighters are not bad at dealing consistent damage, same as they were before 2.0 hit. They're not even close to a micromanaged rogue, but that's one of their strenghts, put them on the front line they'll babysit themselves (to an extent). But, again, to an extent, you can probably achieve similar (or better) results with a (high level) monk (keep in mind that most of my observations at least only refer to a high level environment. The same lack of scaling that makes, or will make, fighters fall behind at high levels makes them pretty damn good at low level).Also, frankly, in this game equipment and good tactics generally outperform raw numbers and class abilities, at least as far as standing power goes (which doesn't mean that numbers shouldn't be tuned and balanced ). Slap a suit of exceptional full plate armor on your rogue and, while not as survivable as a fighter, he'll still be able to hold the line for awhile while still dealing pretty decent dps.

It's not hard: nerf exceptional shields by 10 or so points , maybe reduce the penalty to accuracy in order to compensate or spread the bonus so that instead of getting +4 deflection/upgrade, you get +1 to def, ref and fort and +1 accuracy/upgrade and you' ve nerfed everyone's maximum, then you can roll back the changes to defender, put fighters back in line with the other defensive oriented classes and pure tanks still end up a fair bit lower than they were. Pure tank fighters would even end up a couple of points lower than they are now, since defender only increased deflection by 7 points over the current cautious attack. You solve the problem precisely, keep shields good as you only nerf the enchant bonus, keep the classes on the same playing field and don't need to readjust half the classes in the friggin' game.PoE's underlying math is quite transparent and balanced (kudos to the devs on that front).

Yeah, that's a good idea. Then they should also bring every other dps down to the fighter's level, of course in order to compensate for the decreased damage output, they should also increase their endurance and remove spells. That'd work. Or they could roll back the changes, because, really, if paladins don't break the game now, fighters wouldn't either, and deflection HAS been lowered across the board with the changes to perception, which means it' s up to 20 points lower at the high end (which was the problem to begin with, it was not the offtank with 100 deflection that messed up things, it was the 150+ deflection tank that pushed hits out of the combat table ). Also, frankly, it seems to me that they largely overestimated how much defender contributed to the fighter's unhittability, since they seemed to forget about cautious attack entirely while underestimating how much shields contributed (up to 34 points for a single piece of equipment and a penalty to accuracy, something that, per josh sawyer's words, he considers a non-issue to a tank, and he was discussing defender, which only added like 15 points).

Because 2 engagements is more than one and someone thinks the extra engagement is worth -5 deflection? The extra engagement is definitely worth -5 if it prevents flanked status and it might also be worth it if keeps more people off your back line or if your fighter can deal out good disengagement hits. It also frees you up to take an attacking ability rather than hold the line. Obviously if you're trying to max out deflection, you skip defender and take cautious attack instead, defender is either for fighters that are more active and/or have really high CON. Defender's biggest issue right now is that it's exclusive to Savage and Cautious Attack no good reason. Fighters bigger issue is that a lot of their other abilities are lacking and Defender was masking that. Defender wasn't masking anything, defender was one of the good abilities fighters are now lacking. "Let's nerf the fighter's only good defensive ability in order to bring it in line with his other bad abilities and then complain that fighters lack good abilities " doesn't strike me as good logic, sorry.

I'll have to disagree on the 5/10 to defender. I'd rate it even lower, and I don't really understand how people are deeming it a good pick, as things stand. If you grab defender+ superior deflection, you're at +0 defense, +2 targets engaged, just like if you spent 2 general talents on hold the line ( you can't, obviously, but it's just to quantify the resources invested ), except that with defender, we're talking a class ability, which are supposedly stronger, rather than a general talent instead of two talents, and you're locked out of modals. As you note, both ciphers and rogues get class talents or class abilities that complement their role, and that are far better than both general talents and what the other, less offense-oriented classes get; that's exactly the reason the old defender was good but not overpowered in the context it was presented, and, considering what Josh said, I still don't understand why they decided to nerf it in the first place, since, compared to the alternative (cautious attack), it ended up increasing the fighter's deflection by just 5 points, and instead they nerfed it by 20 friggin points. The way I see it, the issue with fighters is the same it's been since forever in D&D: they're built on a better chassis than most other classes ( high accuracy, good health/endurance, good deflection ) and thus perform better at low levels. Also, they got some decent low-level abilities, roughly equivalent to 1st level spells, and constant recovery, which is (was?) pretty sweet when you're level 4. Unfortunately, most of their abilities don't scale in either number of uses nor effectiveness, and, at high levels, when the steam of being built on a slightly better chassis runs off, they just fall behind. They're supposed to be low manteinance, so they should get good passives and modals, but instead they get a bunch of low impact passive bonuses and the only really good modal they got was just nerfed. Also, their self healing doesn't really scale, and that includes both constant recovery and unbroken, which, IIRC, is only impacted by might.

Also, you have no control over when constant recovery starts, which means that the first ticks have a good chance of being wasted while you move into position and/or if the enemy misses you, and every time you sit at full health for 3+ seconds, constant recovery overheals you, so in practice, it's often less than 90 endurance. TBH, I'm not even sure that Constant Recovery now having a duration isn't a bug, considering that the lead dev mentioned that it was supposed to scale with level ( which it doesn't ) but, IIRC, didn't talk about the fact that it only lasts 90 seconds now.

Constant recovery, even if it were buffed, does nothing to prevent health loss, though, it just restores endurance. High defenses (or DR ) are necessary in order to keep a tank going over the course of the day, and both monks and paladins are now way ahead in that regard (heck, high level chanters, ciphers and wizards, if you build them for defense, are now ahead of fighters in terms of deflection... that's just sad).

That's more like 13 points, since defender locks you out of cautious attack. Clear out is per rest, and is really nothing to cry home about and is entirely skippable unless you're soloing, since even the frickin priests get an AoE knockdown 4/encounter at high levels, and your casters generally have way better AoE cc then the fighter anyway; vigorous defense only lasts 15 seconds, and the fighter still doesn't catch up to the paladin's passive defense values even with vigorous defense up. Also, it doesn't stack with circle of protection, which in a high level party will be up quite a bit; unbroken's healing is strictly inferior to lay on hands, confident aim is strictly inferior to zealous focus, which is also party wide; unbending is pretty good, but it's also per rest; disciplined assault is what, 160 damage per combat at level 13? Fighters used to be better at dealing consistent damage, but then Immolation happenned. Which incidentally also heals your party. Look, I used to love fighters, I played three to level cap. Between the nerfs and the mediocre high level abilities, they just can't keep up in terms of both utility and raw numbers, now.

Using defender puts the fighter at -24 deflection and -21 fort, ref and will (with wary defender) compared to the paladin. That's a pretty steep price to pay for an extra bit of battlefield control.

Yeah, that'd be great, but it'd be really hard to balance. Ideally, you'd want both builds to be equally viable; however, making all the class abilities equally good would be really hard, even if you keep the builds balanced with each other. In the end, people would just end up taking the best passives, combining them with the top active abilities and, likely, end up with the best of both worlds and a wildly unbalanced character.

Well, paladins get up to +25 fort, ref and will over fighters, +11 deflection, +3 party wide damage reduction OR +6 accuracy, again, party wide; better self healing (talented lay on hands heals for up to 200 endurance/use, so 400/combat), party healing, decent AoE at high levels, better burst damage, better accuracy during boss battles. Fighters get to knockdown stuff twice per fight tho and can have two more opponents beating on them tho, so I guess they're close

Ops, got the names mixed up, sorry. Uhm, if it were always up it'd be insane. It would be cool if it were 1/encounter, applied a shield in order to mitigate a bit of health loss and had some sort of situational refresh mechanism. That'd make tanking a bit more involved and fun, but being fighters the low manteinance tanks, I doubt it'll happen.Speaking of which, this game really lacks an "active" tank, someone that can take care of its own health bar but requires more micro-management.

Thanks, dude, "guardian stance"!I always thought it was named something like "weak-ass modal version of an unused high-level chant", guess I was getting the name wrong

Unbending always up would mean +5dr and +10 to all defenses. The bonus dr is huge at low levels, and the healing too. If they scaled with your level and endurance it would work, but as it stands it would need to be adjusted at the very least. My (other) take would be to take the other fighter modal, the one I don't even remember how it's named now( because really, did someone ever take it?), and make it about engagement and defender about boosting the fighter's defenses or vice-versa. This way, you cover both playstyles and give fighters a meaningful choice.

Disagree. Fighters still need better defenses, as things stand, they're pretty far behind paladins in terms of deflection and defenses, behind monks in terms of non-deflection defenses and slightly behind chanters as far as deflection goes. They have other options that increase accuracy and damage (weapon mastery and confident aim).They need something that makes them better at reducing damage and cc duration, since, atm, they're out of luck in that regard.

Constant Recovery doesn't, or at least, it didn't didn't look like it did at level 12 ( I let it tick for the full duration to verify that it did have a duration in 2.0). It still ticked for 4 with ~20 might. So, it's weaker, rather than stronger, from where I'm standing. I didn't test it at levels 13+, tho. Veteran Recovery doesn't scale either, it ticks for about 2 endurance even at level 14.

IIRC: Immolation lasts 30 seconds, ticks every three seconds, each tick deals ~30 burn damage , 6 raw damage to the paladin and heals ~10 endurance; damage and healing are both affected by might.

Being refered to as a person intead of my username makes me feel devalued somehow. Thanks for the list though! Feels a bit unfair that the spells are that much better than the stuff the chanter gets, not to say the martial classes. :/ Anyway, the barbarian is the only one missing now: Barbarian: - Eye of the storm: Can't be engaged by enemies 2 levels below the barbarian. - Dragon Leap: 1 per encounter, select a location to jump to, Foe AoE, 20-30 damage, Foe AoE daze for 15 sec vs reflex Well, Paladins and Monks don't have it that bad. The paladin's AoE is not too shabby, all in all, and the healing is an added bonus; Iron Wheel is pretty sweet, for a defensive monk, and the summon doesn't look too bad either; chanters get a level 13 chant that grants 15% draining , party wide... it should provide a fair bit of healing. Also, the chant that grants a shield reduces health loss, it can have its uses, especially if there's more than one chanter in your party. Fighters though... they get a modal that basically turns an average enemy AoE into a powerful single target spell... because nothing screams "bastion of defense" like being one-shotted by a fireball, and nothing screams "smart play" like your tank exploding as soon as the enemy mages start slinging their AoE spells. Also, their capstone... it's what, 8 damage/hit if your opponent's DR is >= 8, so if your party can attack him 10 times in that timespan, it's around 80 damage... let's say 100. Since you can cast it twice per fight, let's say it's worth about 200 damage over 16 seconds, that doesn't scale with might. That's about as good as a single casting of the dragon thrashed, the dragon wailed, 'cept, you know, single target. Pretty "meh" as a level 13 class ability. Also, spellcasters getting 3rd level encounter spells... *cringes* Edit: oh, yeah, and as for barbarians...the barbarian, the class with a talent that increases his damage when he's engaged, now has a class ability that makes him harder to engage... yay synergy! Edit 2: come to think of it, the fighter modal could work hilarously well with withdraw, if it keeps working when the fighter is invulnerable. Of course, this means you're not really playing a tank, or playing at all, really, but still...

That'd make sense if those values hadn't already dropped by 10+ points from the change to perception. Nah, it still wouldn't, IMHO. Defender put fighters a whoopin' 5 points ahead of high deflection classes, except for Paladins (6 points ahead of fighters ) and ciphers with borrowed instinct up. 5 points at the cost of a class ability slot and a talent. 5 points aren't even noticeable when your defense is in the ballpark of 150. Also, this means that the other, un-nerfed classes could (and some of them still can) approach those values. What makes me unconfortable about this nerf is that they completely missed the point that the bulk of the fighter's unhittability came from general talents, equipment and consumables that are available to pretty much anyone else, and, instead of adjusting the deflection and dr values on equipment, if they deemed them too high, the devs knee-jerked and crippled a class ability because it did exactly what a class ability should do, make a class better at its supposed job ( and, really, a +5 bonus in PoE is pretty much the same as +1 AC in D&D... hardly game breaking ).

TBH, I'm not really sure that's the case anymore ( but, admittedly, I haven't seen the 13th level fighter class ability yet ), at higher levels. Take a monk, equip him with heavy armor, give him the same weapons you'd give the fighter, then iron wheel and turning wheel, and, if you deem it necessary, duality of mortal presence, cautious attack, veteran recovery. Yeah, that's quite a bit of abilities and talents, but the fighter will also have to grab at least two or three in order to keep up with the monk's damage, and doesn't really have any good defensive picks, aside from cautious attack and superior deflection, and, maybe, unbroken and unbending. Let's say that you accrue 10 wounds and just let the monk auto-attack ( just like you would with your fighter ): turning wheel gives him +50% damage to the fighter's +25% ( and only costs a single class ability instead of a class ability + a talent ), and iron wheel grants him +10 DR, with which the fighter just can't catch up, so the monk's way ahead in terms of damage and DR. Yeah, the monk doesn't start the fight with 10 wounds, but it doesn't need so much time to reach them ( around 80 damage taken with lesser wounds ) ,and, with that +10 DR, he's really hard to take down. Same HP, same accuracy, the monk has more health and slightly higher secondary defenses ( +8 due to duality ), slightly lower self healing, but can deal way more AoE damage (rooting pain), on-demand CC and can also be more mobile if you invest in Flagellant Path. To me, it seems the monk is way ahead, what am I missing?

Ignoring the fact that constant recovery deactivates after 90 seconds whether it actually healed anything or just overhealed, sure, you can spend another talent on it. Or just play a class with more starting hp, which has the same effect and is also better against burst damage, especially at higher levels. So yeah, veteran recovery is probably better, especially because it can be slapped on classes with better defenses and more hp than the 2.0 fighter.

Dude, I don't know what release you're playing, but in the 2.0 I'm playing defender definitely lowers your deflection by 5 points, check again. Also, veteran recovery is rounded up to 2 with just a bit of might, and has no duration, while now constant recovery, which heals for 3 with might <= 19 (IIRC) only lasts 90 seconds now, so it's basically a weaker and less versatile form of lay on hands. That's a huge blow to the fighter's survability, and, really, they don't have that much going for them aside from survability.

So, wait, let me get this straight. You guys nerfed Defender and you also nerfed constant recovery, which now has a duration (90 secs)? While granting all the other classes veteran recovery, which has no duration, AND leaving the paladin like a dozen points ahead of the fighter in terms of deflection and like a couple dozens points of fort, ref and will? And the fighter is intended to be an exceptional tank? Really? Josh, I really appreciate that you took the time to chime in to clarify the issue with defender, but... really?

They're moving towards fewer sources for deflection stacking and Defender + Wary Defender gave + 15, iirc. They may need to tweak that to giving +5 total deflection or something with the old +10 bonus to other defenses instead of a straight nerf to deflection and +5 to the others. Edit: came out snarkier than intended. Paraphrased: nerf shields rather than talents. They give a bunch of deflection for a minimal investment, and with a single talent they also add a lot of reflex defense. Also, all top-end tanks use them.