Njall

...so he went with "exponential" instead?I'm only half kidding here. If we compare PoE to BG2, which was based on Ad&d 2e, high level casters were all kinds of unbalanced, but their high level save or suck spells stood a high chance of being resisted by an equal-level opponent due to the way saving throws worked; also, their thac0 scaled slower than the warrior classes, whose main strengths were reliable damage output and high hp, aside from access to better equipment( advantage which was largely negated by the casters' plethora of self buffs). Also, the warriors' attack rate improved with level, and by the time they hit level 13, their damage output might well be doubled or even tripled. In PoE, attacks against an opponent of the same level are supposed to hit or graze (aside from PotD, but even on PotD you're still more likely to hit than a high level opponent was to fail his save in BG), so CC and save or suck are way more reliable; the caster's "thac0"(accuracy) doesn' really fall behind as much as it did in BG2, and they have full access to the best equipment in the game aside from their self-buffs. Also, the non-casters don't get anything comparable to the improved attack rate they got in 2e. Lastly, everybody has access to skills in PoE, so your wizard or cleric doesn't even need a rogue in order to deal with those pesky traps like he used to in Ad&d. Oh, and let's not forget per-encounter spells and the fact that in BG, resting in a unsafe area wasn't necessarily a good idea. Now, their spells aren'quite as good as 9th level spells used to be, but I'm not sure they're comparatively weaker.

They are neither balanced nor needed, but, while PoE is a game, people invested their very real time leveling up their characters. Pulling the rug from under their feet at this point wouldn't be cool at all. I'd rather the devs brought everyone else roughly on par and focused on making every class equally effective and exciting, adjusting those who lag behind upwards rather than making the MVPs weaker. By all means keep in mind that, whenever PoE 2 hits, they might have to rethink or remove the feature, but there's no need to do it now. I don't know about you guys, but I'm more likely to start a new playthrough when a cool feature is released for an underpowered class than I am to reroll and/or keep playing when a character I enjoy is nerfed to the ground. By all means strive to achieve balance, but balance should be a means to achieve fun, not an end. When a new patch hits, I want to be excited about the new content it might bring, I want to think that I'll enjoy the game, and my characters, more. I don't want to dread that every new patch might kill a PC I've invested a bunch of time playing and leveling up.

You're right, sorry, it's just that I' m posting from mobile as well, adjusting the formatting and the quotes takes a fair bit of scrolling up...

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling. Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest.More babbling.PotD is like 10 to 25 points higher accuracy, IIRC. That's still a fair bit too low to crit a dedicated tank. But please, do go on posting your non-anecdotes and carefully avoiding math. Numbers please. How much is Critical defense worth in one of your maths-defying playthroughts? Numbers or shut up, please. Lol you sound so mad. Though it's not particularly surprising, seeing as you minmax for lower difficulties to feed your ego while steamrolling weak enemies. You also basically just admitted that you lied about playing and beating PotD, seeing as you don't even know how much more accuracy enemies acquire. Go read a book and stop embarrassing yourself by posting inane drivel online. Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling. Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest.More babbling.PotD is like 10 to 25 points higher accuracy, IIRC. That's still a fair bit too low to crit a dedicated tank. But please, do go on posting your non-anecdotes and carefully avoiding math. Numbers please. How much is Critical defense worth in one of your maths-defying playthroughts? Numbers or shut up, please. Lol you sound so mad. Though it's not particularly surprising, seeing as you minmax for lower difficulties to feed your ego while steamrolling weak enemies. You also basically just admitted that you lied about playing and beating PotD, seeing as you don't even know how much more accuracy enemies acquire. Go read a book and stop embarrassing yourself by posting inane drivel online. Yeah, sure, ' cause when I played it , like 2-3 months ago, I was so intent looking at the logs of every single fight in order to debunk your "high level theorycrafting" which skips actual math altogether. Which I am still waiting for, btw. When does critical defense become mathematically equivalent to 5 defense? 8? How much is PotD accuracy higher than Hard and Normal, let's hear that straight from you, sir? No, because I mean, can your "high level theorycrafting" provide at least that very basic info? Also, really, this entire discussion has been you screaming "fallacy!" at pretty much anythyng you didn't want to bother responding, ignoring any math people have posted and trying to discredit me by claiming I'm lying because I refused to post my pedigree instead. Go on, let'see this supreme theorycrafting skills of your, or are you going to keep attacking me instead? Numbers. Post them. I'll help you: even when Deflection < accuracy by 25 points, critical defense only amounts to 5 points of defense. Go on, feel free to prove how wrong I am.

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes.And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling. Again, you are considering fights where debuffs will frequently work while I am theorycrafting for the toughest fights on PotD, aka the only fights that you need to or it is fun (imo) to minmax. It appears that you have serious reading comprehension issues. Here's a pro tip: Next time you retort someone's PotD anecdote, followed by their PotD theorycrafting, you should first ask yourself if you are also playing PotD or if your mind is predisposed towards theorycrafting for easier difficulties. If the latter is more apropos, then there's no need to respond in the first place. You could have saved us both a lot of time if you had just thought before your initial, emotional response, in which you were theorycrafting for lower difficulties while I was overtly theorycrafting for the highest. More babbling. PotD is like 10 to 25 points higher accuracy, IIRC. That's still a fair bit too low to crit a dedicated tank. But please, do go on posting your non-anecdotes and carefully avoiding math. Numbers please. How much is Critical defense worth in one of your maths-defying playthroughts? Numbers or shut up, please.

Dude, start debuffing your opponents sometimes. And you still didn't post a single number. That's not theorycrafting, that's theorybabbling.

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche. Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer.Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice.In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon.If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee?And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter?Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars)."And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up.What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though. Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable.Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment.Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off.Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the mathCase #1 accuracy = deflection0-15 miss16-50 graze51-100 hitWith nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damageWith Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze0-15 miss16-55 graze56-100 hitDamage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemycase #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection0-50 hit51-100 critWith nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage0-5 graze6-61 hit61-100 critdamage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good.After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better :)Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off.Regarding Critical Defense: I ran the numbers a bit further and it appears that for a 300 endurance fighter (not difficult to achieve at level 12 on Eder), your effective endurance would be 319. So you are deepening your endurance pool by 19, which does sound a subpar compared to other level 9 abilities, but can still potentially save you in tough battles.By that token ("it can still save you") even a talent that adds a single point of endurance would be a good pick.19 endurance with a massive con investment and a class ability at level 12 doesn't sound paltry, IS paltry.PoE, like every game that features hitpoints, is a game of attrition; you're out of endurance, you lose. 19 endurance at level 12 isn't worth a class ability, just take an offensive ability instead and you'll see much better returns in a tough fight. Do you play on PotD? Because you can't make your party fully offensive (at least for your main frontliner) on that difficulty. Oftentimes you have to take the slightly worse by the numbers, synergistic-with-your-party, defensive ability to not get trounced by extremely potent enemies."Making your party fully offensive"differs quite a bit from "taking every defensive ability the game throws at you no matter how bad". I didn't tell you to send Eder on the front line wearing only his smallclothes, I told you that critical defense is entirely skippable. Again, you are making a blatant reductio ad absurdum after misconstruing my contention (I said "Oftentimes", not "no matter how bad"). My second sentence was obviously a hyperbole, so I apologize if you did not correctly infer that notion. And every ability is technically entirely skippable. You will just be gimping your party and characters if you skip more synergistically stronger ones in favor of others.Yeah, so if I say that critical defense isn't synergistically stronger at all, because, in fact, it grants you lower and lower returns the higher your deflection, and thus sucks, does it sound better and make more sense to you? Anytime you manage to push critical hits away from the combat table, critical defense is worth about 2.5% points of damage reduction. That's pretty much as good as +3 deflection. I would answer your question with another, unanswered question. Do you play on and have you beat PotD? If I weren't playing on PotD while focusing my party on defeating the toughest enemies (who crit often), then I would definitely agree with you. Not only will an offensive ability instead of Critical Defense be more fun, it would make fights faster and easier, as you will destroy the enemies before they hit you with a comparatively higher number of non-crit attacks. In conclusion, I also think that Critical Defense could use a minor buff, yet I would still rather take it over an offensive ability in its current state because it synergizes better with my party composition and strategy.Played it, finished it, didn't like it one bit (I like playing less optimal characters than PotD forces you to play).Which still doesn't change the point I'm making. Now, right back at you, do you realize that one one side, you're arguing that fighters are tough enough as they are, while also saying that the equivalent of 3 points of deflection makes a noticeable difference in terms of survival? How about trying a paladin, that gets like four times that amount, like +26 to all the other defenses and 3 more dr on top of it? Care to post some screenshots? Because I don't believe someone who thinks that the ability gives the equivalent of a static 3 deflection could beat it without using cheese or broken abilities like Barbarian's old One Stands Alone. Furthermore, while comparing the paladin and fighter, you intentionally fail to mention the majority of the fighter's other abilities and talents which synergize with his tank build. Anyway, I'm done debating someone who litters every retort with logical fallacy after logical fallacy (cherry picking and straw men and reductio ad absurdum, oh my!). Have a good day, and I suggest you spend more time reading books rather than pontificating erroneous conjectures online. Not a chance I'm bothering? Care to address my points with logic and maths instead of trying to wave away pretty much every point people have made without even bothering to post a shred of math? Oh the irony. Just in case you missed the edit: Critical defense turns 20% of the crits you take into hits, and 10% of the hits you take into grazes. Thus, if def>= acc (which is pretty much always if you're wearing a shield) , only the latter will come into play, because you'll NEVER be critted. You'll be hit 50% of the time at most, so critical defense will convert 10% of that amount into grazes, halving the damage taken. So, instead of (0*0.15+0.35*0.5+0.50) *damage, you're going to take (0*0.15+0.40*0.5+0.45)*damage. So instead of 0.675*damage, 0.65*damage. Now, let's say we increase our deflection by 3 points instead: (0*0.18+0.35*0.5+0.47)= 0.64.5. OH LOOK, IT'S THE SAME FRICKIN' AMOUNT,EVEN LOWER WHO WOULDA SAY?! Anyone that could count up to 3, here's who. And that's if deflection = accuracy, if deflection > accuracy, it's worth even less. Discuss. Or count up to three. And, after you do, feel free to post a screenshot of the abacus you used, please.

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche. Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer. Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice. In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon. If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee? And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars)."And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up. What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though. Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable. Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment. Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off. Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the math Case #1 accuracy = deflection 0-15 miss 16-50 graze 51-100 hit With nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damage With Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze 0-15 miss 16-55 graze 56-100 hit Damage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemy case #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection 0-50 hit 51-100 crit With nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage 0-5 graze 6-61 hit 61-100 crit damage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good. After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off. Regarding Critical Defense: I ran the numbers a bit further and it appears that for a 300 endurance fighter (not difficult to achieve at level 12 on Eder), your effective endurance would be 319. So you are deepening your endurance pool by 19, which does sound a subpar compared to other level 9 abilities, but can still potentially save you in tough battles. By that token ("it can still save you") even a talent that adds a single point of endurance would be a good pick. 19 endurance with a massive con investment and a class ability at level 12 doesn't sound paltry, IS paltry. PoE, like every game that features hitpoints, is a game of attrition; you're out of endurance, you lose. 19 endurance at level 12 isn't worth a class ability, just take an offensive ability instead and you'll see much better returns in a tough fight. Do you play on PotD? Because you can't make your party fully offensive (at least for your main frontliner) on that difficulty. Oftentimes you have to take the slightly worse by the numbers, synergistic-with-your-party, defensive ability to not get trounced by extremely potent enemies. "Making your party fully offensive"differs quite a bit from "taking every defensive ability the game throws at you no matter how bad". I didn't tell you to send Eder on the front line wearing only his smallclothes, I told you that critical defense is entirely skippable. Again, you are making a blatant reductio ad absurdum after misconstruing my contention (I said "Oftentimes", not "no matter how bad"). My second sentence was obviously a hyperbole, so I apologize if you did not correctly infer that notion. And every ability is technically entirely skippable. You will just be gimping your party and characters if you skip more synergistically stronger ones in favor of others. Yeah, so if I say that critical defense isn't synergistically stronger at all, because, in fact, it grants you lower and lower returns the higher your deflection, and thus sucks, does it sound better and make more sense to you? Anytime you manage to push critical hits away from the combat table, critical defense is worth about 2.5% points of damage reduction. That's pretty much as good as +3 deflection. I would answer your question with another, unanswered question. Do you play on and have you beat PotD? If I weren't playing on PotD while focusing my party on defeating the toughest enemies (who crit often), then I would definitely agree with you. Not only will an offensive ability instead of Critical Defense be more fun, it would make fights faster and easier, as you will destroy the enemies before they hit you with a comparatively higher number of non-crit attacks. In conclusion, I also think that Critical Defense could use a minor buff, yet I would still rather take it over an offensive ability in its current state because it synergizes better with my party composition and strategy. Played it, finished it, didn't like it one bit (I like playing less optimal characters than PotD forces you to play). Which still doesn't change the point I'm making. Now, right back at you, do you realize that one one side, you're arguing that fighters are tough enough as they are, while also saying that the equivalent of 3 points of deflection makes a noticeable difference in terms of survival? How about trying a paladin, that gets like four times that amount, like +26 to all the other defenses and 3 more dr on top of it? Care to post some screenshots? Because I don't believe someone who thinks that the ability gives the equivalent of a static 3 deflection could beat it without using cheese or broken abilities like Barbarian's old One Stands Alone. Furthermore, while comparing the paladin and fighter, you intentionally fail to mention the majority of the fighter's other abilities and talents which synergize with his tank build. Anyway, I'm done debating someone who litters every retort with logical fallacy after logical fallacy (cherry picking and straw men and reductio ad absurdum, oh my!). Have a good day, and I suggest you spend more time reading books rather than pontificating erroneous conjectures online. No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche. Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer.Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice.In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon.If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee?And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter?Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars)."And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up.What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though. Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable.Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment.Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off.Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the mathCase #1 accuracy = deflection0-15 miss16-50 graze51-100 hitWith nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damageWith Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze0-15 miss16-55 graze56-100 hitDamage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemycase #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection0-50 hit51-100 critWith nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage0-5 graze6-61 hit61-100 critdamage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good.After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better :)Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds Not a chance I'm bothering? Care to address my points with logic and maths instead of trying to wave away pretty much every point people have made without even bothering to post a shred of math? If you don't believe that's how much critical defense is worth you could, you know, actually start crunching the numbers instead of just assuming you're right. Here, I'll do it for you: Critical defense turns 20% of the crits you take into hits, and 10% of the hits you take into grazes. Thus, if def>= acc (which is pretty much always if you're wearing a shield) , only the latter will come into play, because you'll NEVER be critted. You'll be hit 50% of the time at most, so critical defense will convert 10% of that amount into grazes, halving the damage taken. So, instead of (0*0.15+0.35*0.5+0.50) *damage, you're going to take (0*0.15+0.40*0.5+0.45)*damage. So instead of 0.675*damage, 0.65*damage. Now, let's say we increase our deflection by 3 points instead: (0*0.18+0.35*0.5+0.47)= 0.64.5. OH LOOK, IT'S THE SAME FRICKIN' AMOUNT, WHO WOULDA SAY?! Anyone that could count up to 3, here's who.

Nope, tanking is still pretty much where it was. You're talking as if deflection was lowered by like 40 points across the board and endurance increased by like 50%. They weren't, deflection was brought down by 20 points, give or take, with the fighter taking an additional (and totally gratuitious) nerf and endurance was increased by around 10%. Plenty of tanks managed without being unhittable before 2.0 hit, and you could become unhittable, thus, they can just buff up a bit more now and be exactly where they were before. The relative value of deflection and endurance hasn't changed one bit, yeah, con is now more viable, but, in the end, avoiding or reducing damage is generally better than just soaking it, because as long as healing >= damage taken, your tank will go on indefinitely, health permitting, while, in the end, the bonus endurance you gain from a high con score is roughly equivalent to a single heal of that magnitude. Compared to 1.06, now a fighter with 18 con has 313 endurance at level 14 instead of 278. That's like getting 35 endurance from your priest. It's no trivial amount, but it's not THAT impressive either, especially since it will be less noticeable at low levels.

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche. Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer. Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice. In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon. If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee? And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars)."And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up. What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though. Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable. Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment. Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off. Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the math Case #1 accuracy = deflection 0-15 miss 16-50 graze 51-100 hit With nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damage With Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze 0-15 miss 16-55 graze 56-100 hit Damage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemy case #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection 0-50 hit 51-100 crit With nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage 0-5 graze 6-61 hit 61-100 crit damage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good. After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off. Regarding Critical Defense: I ran the numbers a bit further and it appears that for a 300 endurance fighter (not difficult to achieve at level 12 on Eder), your effective endurance would be 319. So you are deepening your endurance pool by 19, which does sound a subpar compared to other level 9 abilities, but can still potentially save you in tough battles. By that token ("it can still save you") even a talent that adds a single point of endurance would be a good pick. 19 endurance with a massive con investment and a class ability at level 12 doesn't sound paltry, IS paltry. PoE, like every game that features hitpoints, is a game of attrition; you're out of endurance, you lose. 19 endurance at level 12 isn't worth a class ability, just take an offensive ability instead and you'll see much better returns in a tough fight. Do you play on PotD? Because you can't make your party fully offensive (at least for your main frontliner) on that difficulty. Oftentimes you have to take the slightly worse by the numbers, synergistic-with-your-party, defensive ability to not get trounced by extremely potent enemies. "Making your party fully offensive"differs quite a bit from "taking every defensive ability the game throws at you no matter how bad". I didn't tell you to send Eder on the front line wearing only his smallclothes, I told you that critical defense is entirely skippable. Again, you are making a blatant reductio ad absurdum after misconstruing my contention (I said "Oftentimes", not "no matter how bad"). My second sentence was obviously a hyperbole, so I apologize if you did not correctly infer that notion. And every ability is technically entirely skippable. You will just be gimping your party and characters if you skip more synergistically stronger ones in favor of others. Yeah, so if I say that critical defense isn't synergistically stronger at all, because, in fact, it grants you lower and lower returns the higher your deflection, and thus sucks, does it sound better and make more sense to you? Anytime you manage to push critical hits away from the combat table, critical defense is worth about 2.5% points of damage reduction. That's pretty much as good as +3 deflection. I would answer your question with another, unanswered question. Do you play on and have you beat PotD? If I weren't playing on PotD while focusing my party on defeating the toughest enemies (who crit often), then I would definitely agree with you. Not only will an offensive ability instead of Critical Defense be more fun, it would make fights faster and easier, as you will destroy the enemies before they hit you with a comparatively higher number of non-crit attacks. In conclusion, I also think that Critical Defense could use a minor buff, yet I would still rather take it over an offensive ability in its current state because it synergizes better with my party composition and strategy. Played it, finished it, didn't like it one bit (I like playing less optimal characters than PotD forces you to play). Which still doesn't change the point I'm making. Now, right back at you, do you realize that one one side, you're arguing that fighters are tough enough as they are, while also saying that the equivalent of 3 points of deflection makes a noticeable difference in terms of survival? How about trying a paladin, that gets like four times that amount, like +26 to all the other defenses and 3 more dr on top of it?

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Belt Girdle of Eotun Constitution: Random loot spawning in various locations. Depending on the percent chance to get lucky and obtain this belt, it is hard to get. (I haven't gotten it in 1.5 playthroughs yet.) Fine, but getting +2 constitution is trivial. You can enchant it onto armor or there is a +2 belt you can get every playthrough. A bunch of food items add +2. Getting Eder to 20 CON is very easy and doesn't need any real investment, it's not some impossibly high value than requires massive sacrifices. Again, just because the devs allocated his starting points that way, it doesn't mean they're free. They're there instead of being somewhere else. Getting an ability score to 18 in a game that uses point buy is never hard, but it's nevertheless an investment.

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche. Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer.Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice. In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon. If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee? And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars)."And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up.What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though. Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable.Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment. Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off. Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the math Case #1 accuracy = deflection 0-15 miss 16-50 graze 51-100 hit With nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damage With Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze 0-15 miss 16-55 graze 56-100 hit Damage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemy case #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection 0-50 hit 51-100 crit With nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage 0-5 graze 6-61 hit 61-100 crit damage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good. After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off. Regarding Critical Defense: I ran the numbers a bit further and it appears that for a 300 endurance fighter (not difficult to achieve at level 12 on Eder), your effective endurance would be 319. So you are deepening your endurance pool by 19, which does sound a subpar compared to other level 9 abilities, but can still potentially save you in tough battles.By that token ("it can still save you") even a talent that adds a single point of endurance would be a good pick.19 endurance with a massive con investment and a class ability at level 12 doesn't sound paltry, IS paltry. PoE, like every game that features hitpoints, is a game of attrition; you're out of endurance, you lose. 19 endurance at level 12 isn't worth a class ability, just take an offensive ability instead and you'll see much better returns in a tough fight. Do you play on PotD? Because you can't make your party fully offensive (at least for your main frontliner) on that difficulty. Oftentimes you have to take the slightly worse by the numbers, synergistic-with-your-party, defensive ability to not get trounced by extremely potent enemies. "Making your party fully offensive"differs quite a bit from "taking every defensive ability the game throws at you no matter how bad". I didn't tell you to send Eder on the front line wearing only his smallclothes, I told you that critical defense is entirely skippable. Again, you are making a blatant reductio ad absurdum after misconstruing my contention (I said "Oftentimes", not "no matter how bad"). My second sentence was obviously a hyperbole, so I apologize if you did not correctly infer that notion. And every ability is technically entirely skippable. You will just be gimping your party and characters if you skip more synergistically stronger ones in favor of others. Yeah, so if I say that critical defense isn't synergistically stronger at all, because, in fact, it grants you lower and lower returns the higher your deflection, and thus sucks, does it sound better and make more sense to you? Anytime you manage to push critical hits away from the combat table, which should be more often than not on a dedicated tank, critical defense is worth about a -2.5% damage. That's pretty much as good as +3 deflection, which is worse than a general talent.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Belt Girdle of Eotun Constitution: Random loot spawning in various locations. Depending on the percent chance to get lucky and obtain this belt, it is hard to get. (I haven't gotten it in 1.5 playthroughs yet.) Guys, who cares. You're missing the opportunity costs. That's what I was talking about when I referred to a "massive investment". Every point you dump into constitution is a point that doesn't go somewhere else, and the same holds true for equipment slots. They're not free points in any shape or form. Now, we can take the time to discuss the relative value of con vs might vs resolve vs perception for a tank, but ultimately it's irrelevant, because if you've dumped half your starting points into a single ability score, you've invested quite a bit of your resources no matter how you look at it.

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche. Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer.Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice. In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon. If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee? And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars)."And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up.What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though. Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable.Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment. Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off. Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the math Case #1 accuracy = deflection 0-15 miss 16-50 graze 51-100 hit With nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damage With Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze 0-15 miss 16-55 graze 56-100 hit Damage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemy case #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection 0-50 hit 51-100 crit With nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage 0-5 graze 6-61 hit 61-100 crit damage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good. After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off. Regarding Critical Defense: I ran the numbers a bit further and it appears that for a 300 endurance fighter (not difficult to achieve at level 12 on Eder), your effective endurance would be 319. So you are deepening your endurance pool by 19, which does sound a subpar compared to other level 9 abilities, but can still potentially save you in tough battles.By that token ("it can still save you") even a talent that adds a single point of endurance would be a good pick.19 endurance with a massive con investment and a class ability at level 12 doesn't sound paltry, IS paltry. PoE, like every game that features hitpoints, is a game of attrition; you're out of endurance, you lose. 19 endurance at level 12 isn't worth a class ability, just take an offensive ability instead and you'll see much better returns in a tough fight. Do you play on PotD? Because you can't make your party fully offensive (at least for your main frontliner) on that difficulty. Oftentimes you have to take the slightly worse by the numbers, synergistic-with-your-party, defensive ability to not get trounced by extremely potent enemies. "Making your party fully offensive"differs quite a bit from "taking every defensive ability the game throws at you no matter how bad". I didn't tell you to send Eder on the front line wearing only his smallclothes, I told you that critical defense is entirely skippable.

Meh, the line between what should be per encounter has always been blurry and always felt arbitrary; in the end, high level spellcasters made that line even blurrier. And as far as difficulty goes, PoE is a game that revolves around a mathematical engine, with pause... really, once people get accustomed to the rules of the game and start crunching numbers, the only thing you can do to make it harder is increasing RNG or increasing the enemies' stats, in which case people will just crunch more numbers and tbe game will be easy again. You can't really evaluate it now, with people at their 10th playthrough, it felt significantly harder when I played it for the first time, that's what counts, IMHO. Making it harder now will just frustrate the newcomers, and fulfill no purpose, as it will be just as easy as soon as people adjust to the new underlying math.

Hm? Eder still "paid" for those points at character creation; we're evaluating the usefullness of critical defense here, not eder's stat distribution.

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche. Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer. Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice. In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon. If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee? And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars). "And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up. What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though. Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable. Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment. Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off. Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the math Case #1 accuracy = deflection 0-15 miss 16-50 graze 51-100 hit With nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damage With Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze 0-15 miss 16-55 graze 56-100 hit Damage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemy case #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection 0-50 hit 51-100 crit With nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage 0-5 graze 6-61 hit 61-100 crit damage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good. After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off. Regarding Critical Defense: I ran the numbers a bit further and it appears that for a 300 endurance fighter (not difficult to achieve at level 12 on Eder), your effective endurance would be 319. So you are deepening your endurance pool by 19, which does sound a subpar compared to other level 9 abilities, but can still potentially save you in tough battles. By that token ("it can still save you") even a talent that adds a single point of endurance would be a good pick.19 endurance with a massive con investment and a class ability at level 12 doesn't sound paltry, IS paltry. PoE, like every game that features hitpoints, is a game of attrition; you're out of endurance, you lose. 19 endurance at level 12 isn't worth a class ability, just take an offensive ability instead and you'll see much better returns in a tough fight.

"Fighters are perfectly ok, you just need to nerf every other class because they're clearly OP" isn't really a great plan , imho. First, the game ATM is balanced around those abilities being per encounter; second, "let's make every other class less fun to play so that the fighter can shine" sounds like a worse idea than "let's bring fighters on par with the other class so that all the classes are fun". YMMV, obviously.

Well, as far as CC goes, I agree, even though the fighter's cc is still among the weakest in the game at mid-high levels; OTOH, paladins might not deal a bunch of damage themselves (again, at low levels... at high level, Immolation trumps pretty much anything the fighter can bring to the table, dps-wise) but a paladin has a better opener ( you can use FoD with an arquebus, and you won't even expend a use if you are the first to attack ) and both of his auras can be used offensively, to an extent ( Zealous focus adds straight to accuracy, Zealous endurance allows your party to wear lighter armor and thus attack faster). The dps gain is harder to quantify because it depends heavily on party composition, but it's there, and frankly, the fighter's personal dps is surely higher, but it's not that higher in the first place.

Nope. Yes. Another well articulated and compelling argument, I see.Now I'm convinced, you're undoubtely right. Presto, someone lock the thread! I think in light of your contribution, everyone clearly agrees that this thread no longer serves any purpose.* *warning, the above might contain sarcasm. Edit: less snarky answer. Dude, at least do take the time to motivate your stance. Read the thread and counter some of the points the other posters actually bothered to make. Really, it's like three pages long...there's not so much catching up to do.

Nope.

...yeah, so? Don't get me wrong, that's a nice build, and nobody's saying that you can't finish the game ( or even steamroll it!) with a fighter. However, the meat and potato of the build is the interaction between shod-in-faith, the Sanguine plate and a stellar might score...you can do that with just about any class, and you can easily replace the weapon mastery chain with the rogue and hunter's MC talents in order to hit just as hard with the opener. In melee, unless I misunderstand how the damage multipliers stack, you'll end up dealing 100%+60%(might)+20%(savage attack)+15%(TWS)+45%(weapon)=240% weapon damage instead of 265%, but you'll either hit a bunch of enemies instead of just one as a barbarian or attack way faster and your damage will go up as you take damage if you play as a monk.

Well, even before the nerf, it only put fighters like 5 points of deflection ahead of what they could achieve with cautious attack (and still like 6 points behind paladins). Yeah, it was a really good modal. Also, it was the signature modal of a class whose schtick was having better passive abilities than anyone else in the game, which translates into "either you have better numbers or you end up sucking, 'cause you surely can't rely on some leet spell to keep up". It wasn't really OP, in context. Sure, it was good, but the same can be said of the ranger's or rogue modals, which are way better than what's available to the other classes.

Well, about unarmored grace... the thing is, it's a nice ability until you start comparing it to what the other classes get. Think of it this way: generally, unless you're wearing plate, the armor recovery increases at a rate of +5% per point of DR; this means that, again, unless you're wearing plate, if you take confident aim it's pretty much as if you were wearing an armor that's 3 points of DR higher of the one you're wearing. IOW: instead of wearing leather armor for 4 DR and 20% recovery time, you're now wearing scale for 7 DR and an effective 20% recovery. Sounds nice, right? Now, think of it this way: who else gets an ability that improves his DR by 3 points? Better yet, it improves the whole party's DR by 3 point? With some hit to graze conversion added on top for good measure as a single class ability? Also, critical defense is horrible. And I mean literally horrible... it's a class ability that gets worse the more deflection you have. It's literally worse the better you are at your job. Fighters are pretty nice at low levels. At high levels... nope. No AoE capability whatsoever (and, really, unless you're rocking rogue-like dps, that means that, regardless of your +25% damage and your speed-graze-to hit conversion, you're probably one of the lowest dps in the game ) , no class ability to mitigate the incoming damage aside from a buff that lasts only 15 seconds, 3 (at most) 5 seconds knockdowns that pale compared to what the other classes get ( monks get to push away stuff and knock it down for 10 seconds straight, and they can do it multiple times/combat, and that's leaving out priests and ciphers with their 4+ AoE knockdowns ), the only thing they get is the ability to engage more stuff and decent self healing which either doesn't scale or can only be used per rest. I suppose they're decent at tanking dragons, due to Unbending, but that's pretty much all.

Meh, they just got the root of the problem wrong and overreacted, it's neither strange nor unexpected given that they were working on the expansion. I'd just appreciated if they'd held back the nerf and left the ability/talent as they were, and checked how viable they were with the higher level cap and the changes to perception, instead of doubling down on the deflection nerf. Frankly, if you look at the reasons given by Josh in this very thread, none of them seems particularly compelling or holds up to a closer scrutiny: first, the fighter's defense isn't really unapproachable after the changes to perception, for neither opponents nor other classes, and they are and were actually behind other classes, in some cases significantly so; second, I don't really see the reason defender should have a "meaningful" drawback while no other modal in the game does ( Savage Attack lowers accuracy and increases damage; since accuracy is just a means to increase your DPS, if Savage Attack increases your DPS, in the end, the penalty is insignificant. Cautious Attack carries the same penalty as the old defender; the rogue class modal comes with a deflection penalty, which is not very impactful for a dps, and can be reduced to a mere 3 points with a talent; also, it stacks with every other dps modal in the game; the ranger's modals are, again, intended to increase his dps, and they're a net gain, so no significant drawback here either, the paladin's auras come without penalties, as does the monk's modal... and suddenly, giving defender a significant drawback is a priority? ).