Bonuses not adding up

[nstgc]

I noticed that when I graze, the damage modifiers don't add up properly. An example is given in the screen shot. To be clear, the damage should have been 20.9. Alternatively I would have expected 0.5*1.54*20.1=15.5.

Edited May 16, 2018 by nstgc

[zczczc1680]

I have asked a similar question before, actually the damage is calculated via "steps". https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98571-damage-calculation-with-multiple-modifiers/

 

Seems like they have treated action speed / recovery time in the same way. Every action speed bonuses are converted into -% time and caltulated together with +% time penalties.

 

Whenever a negative "step" exists, the exact result of multiple modifier will be quite confusing. 

What I can say is:  

1.Negative modifiers are stronger than positive modifiers if both of them are calculated together and the negative ones will be much more stronger the bigger the number is(closer to -1).

Example: just create a low dex heavy armor character and use pistol modal, you will find that the -50 recovery time makes all penalties completely insignificant. (So single weapon style + pistol modal is much better than dual wielding. This -50% recovery time is as strong as damage reduction of a graze.)

 

Example2: severely underarmorpenatration(-75% damage) is effectively -300% if calculated with other positive modifers. If u had 100% bonus, the final damage will be -1/(-1+(-300%+100%)) = 1/3. Congratulations! Your 100% bonus makes damage from 1/4 to 1/3 of BASE!

 

2.Multiple positve modifers stack additively, obviously weaker than multiplicative.

Multiple negative modifers stack neither additively nor multiplicatively, they are calculated in a inverse-related way. Also, the effect is weaker than treated multiplicative.

You can consider -x% damage as +(1/(1-x%)  - 1) effective health, it is similiar like how armor works in WarCraft3 or Dota. It is logical because the devs wanted to make the return linear to investiment like additive bonuses, but direct combination with positive modifiers is not logical(If you want to mix them together anyway, the positive modifiers  +x% damage will work as -x% effective health, which is not intended since it has not been converted from +x% damage to -y% effective health, that means a multiplication or inverse calculation with positive modifiers is not avoidable). I think some of those modifiers should be multiplied separately, at least they should calculate all positve modifers together and all negative modifiers together and then do a multiplication.

Edited May 16, 2018 by zczczc1680

[Kragtor]

I made a post day 1 or 2 about the math not working out for Dual Wield reload speed. I tried the math 3 different ways, including an in-depth breakdown from Beta players and it didn't work correctly ANY of the 3 ways that made sense.

 

I can only assume that, like everything else in this POS game, the math on EVERYTHING isn't working right.

 

Good thing I was so excited for a game that I now tell everyone who asks not to bother with.

[nstgc]

I made a post day 1 or 2 about the math not working out for Dual Wield reload speed. I tried the math 3 different ways, including an in-depth breakdown from Beta players and it didn't work correctly ANY of the 3 ways that made sense.

 

I can only assume that, like everything else in this POS game, the math on EVERYTHING isn't working right.

 

Good thing I was so excited for a game that I now tell everyone who asks not to bother with.

Bugs happen. Just wait.

[DdsT]

As indicated above, the maths behind are:

Graze:   -50% -> -1 ( because -0.5 is negative, and therefore the formula 1-1/(1-0.5) applies)
Might:   + 9% ->  0.09
Scaling: +15% ->  0.15
Pen.:    +30% ->  0.3
SUM:              0.685 (because the sum -0,46 is negative and therefore formula 1/(1-0.46) applies)
20.1 * 0.685 = 13.77 (seems it is rounded down)

It is unlogical and very confusing: it is very hard to evaluate the effect of a negative effect since the scale is different. Edited May 16, 2018 by DdsT

[nstgc]

That is extremely misleading, especially considering two of the dev goals, repeated on a number of occasions, were increased transparency (which admittedly is more of a buzz word) and simplicity in stacking calculations. This is the opposite of both of those.

 

Also, if that is true, then when you have a -75% malus to damage (no pen) then damage should be zero, which I've never seen happen. Oh, never mind. I see. It's more complicated still:

 

"If the sum is <0 you have the following formula: rolled_dmg/(1-Step_SuM)"

Edited May 16, 2018 by nstgc

[powerofvoid]

Why wouldn't -75% require +300% to cancel out? That's x1/4 and x4.

 

What's weird about the formula posted is that four +50%s and a -75% is -50% rather than +25%.

[zczczc1680]

Why wouldn't -75% require +300% to cancel out? That's x1/4 and x4.

 

What's weird about the formula posted is that four +50%s and a -75% is -50% rather than +25%.

Let  y'  be a negative modifer, let y = y'/1-y'. Then we use -y in steps.

Even if we let -% damage as powerful as a multiplicative factor while all bonuses remain additive, you can only get the closest result if negative step -y = positive step x or positive step x = 0. Since it is unlikely to get  x > y in such cases with a very big y (then y' will be less powerful than a multiplicative factor), in the most of time we end up in the aera x \in (0, y), in this situation the negative modifier y' is more powerful than a multiplicative factor.

 

In your case, if we had +300% bonus or no bonus at all, together with - 75% we get the "correct" result as if we multiply it with 25%.

But what if we had -75% and +150% bonus?

steps = -3+1.5 = -1.5

final damage = -1/(-1-1.5) = 40% base damage, which is less than (1+1.5) * 0.25 = 62.5% base damge.

Now you know what I mean and what the first picture has showed. If we let negative modifier "fight" against positive modifiers, we actually make them (in most of the time) even stronger than multiplicative factor agianst additive factor, that makes no sense. You can see how powerful a graze is while critical hit is useless.

 

 

Some balancing problems:

blunted critical may deal less damage than a normal hit.

 

+15% damage taken of assassin class is almost nothing against weapons.

 

The sword modal, trade deflection for +% damage, is trash. Since deflection is as important as accuracy, the hunting bow and pistol modal which trade accuracy for -50% recovery is much better. If we don't consider attack time, it is almost +100% attack speed which causes a multiplicative +100%  damage output, far better than 15% additive damage bonus(same, the two handed style is useless).

 

For weapon damage output, dex is better than might. In mid or late game there are planty of +45% damage weapons, aloong with other +% weapon damage bonus(rogue and cigher for example) they can make might useless unless might is less than 10(you can't increase base damage so the only way to increase weapon damage is to get those bonuses).  On the other hand action speed increases damage output multiplicatively, can negate armor penalty quite effective and can make combat more flexible.

Edited May 17, 2018 by zczczc1680