Is there any reason to wield a faster weapon in offhand?

[Conman]

Sabre and dagger, rapier and stiletto, whatever the case may be.

Or is it better to not, and wield two harder hitting weapons like swords or axes?

 

I think my mind is being led astray from my "DPS" days in WoW, so not sure there is any benefit in this game to wielding a fast offhand.

Is there any math or calculation which suggests one is better than the other, or that it's the same, or different scenarios where one is better than the other?

 

Side note: why does this forum seem to love hatchets?

[Boeroer]

If you want to dual wield and carry one heavy weapon and one light, then it's actual more benefical to put the light one into the main hand and the heavy one into the offhand. Why is that?

 

Because Full Attack abilites (like Knockdown, Crippling Strike, Blinding Strike, Flames of Devotion and so on) will do a strike with the offhand (heavy weapon) first, skip the recovery of that weapon and follow up with the lighter one which will then trigger its recovery phase - which is a lot shorter than that of a heavy one hander.

 

If you would do it the other way round you would skip the short recovery but face the longer one after the Full Attack.

 

With auto-attacks it doesn't matter at all.

 

Then there's the question if it's better to use light+heavy one hander or better go light+light or heavy+heavy. Well - there's no definite answer to that because it depends. With two heavy one handers Full Attacks will deal more damage but the recovery is a bit longer. With two lighter weapons the Full Attacks will deal less damage but the dps for auto-attacks is a bit better. Using light+heavy is in between.

 

I personally would always use heavy+heavy when I have a lot of Full Attacks per encounter and go light+light when I'm mostly using auto-attacks. Light+heavy is a compromise as I said - but because of the weird recovery mechanic of Full Attacks it's a smart compromise if you put the light weapon into the main hand.

 

In Deafire it's the other way round by the way.

 

Does this forum like hatchets? I didn't notice...

 

Edit: a hell lot of typos.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Conman]

Very informative yet again, thank you Boeroer, that's very helpful!

 

So I understand attack abilities, but regarding the auto attack.

I believe it goes attack recovery attack recovery etc. etc. etc.

2 x heavy hits harder with longer recovery as you said, and 2 x light doesn't hit as hard but has lower recovery so potentially better overall DPS.

As you said if you have heavy & light combined (or I guess any two different weapons with different recovery times) is somewhere in the middle, does your recovery kind of take an average somewhere in between the recoveries of the two weapons?

 

if I have a weapon with 1 x recovery, and one with .5 x recovery (I know these numbers aren't right but it's just for my understanding), recovery would be 0.75?

Edited April 19, 2018 by Conman

[Boeroer]

Very informative yet again, thank you Boeroer, that's very helpful!

 

So I understand attack abilities, but regarding the auto attack.

I believe it goes attack recovery attack recovery etc. etc. etc.

2 x heavy hits harder with longer recovery as you said, and 2 x light doesn't hit as hard but has lower recovery so potentially better overall DPS.

As you said if you have heavy & light combined (or I guess any two different weapons with different recovery times) is somewhere in the middle, does your recovery kind of take an average somewhere in between the recoveries of the two weapons?

 

if I have a weapon with 1 x recovery, and one with .5 x recovery (I know these numbers aren't right but it's just for my understanding), recovery would be 0.75?

You are welcome.

 

The light weapons not only have faster recovery, but also a lot faster attack animation (which can only be influenced by INT Ach godammit DEX). At the beginning of the game they are strictly worse if you're not a rogue with high MIG (because of enemies DR and the low base damage of light weapons) or a monk with fists (because base damage is like heavy one handers although they are fast like light weapons). But with every dmg bonus (enchantment, abilites etc.) they get better and overtake heavy one handers in terms of auto-attack dps at soe point. That's why Drawn in Spring or Sword of Daenysis are great: they combine (very) fast attacks (and also an accuracy bonus of +5) with some means to mitigate enemies' DR (Drawn in Spring: wounding as raw damage, Sword of Daenysis: rending aka 3 DR bypass).

 

The recovery is calculated seperately for every weapon. So if we stick to your examplary values it would be like:

 

Swing with a sword --> 1 recovery --> swing with a dagger --> 0.5 recovery  --> swing with a sword --> 1 recovery... and so on.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Conman]

I assumed it would be attack with both weapons and recover, then repeat.

 

Is it more like both hands attack separately and there are two animations and two separate recoveries for each hand?

[Boeroer]

Correct!

 

I mean the last thing you said.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[Conman]

I wanted to ask what the possible pro/cons of one handed vs duel wielding were aswell, but didn't want to start another thread and spam the forum with my queries!

I understand duel wielding and that lighter/faster is usually better for auto attack dps and heavier/harder hitting is usually better for abilities.

 

What's the benefit (or downside) of wielding only one weapon (like a sabre, or dagger)? And if only using one weapon, would it matter what hand it was in?

If wielding one weapon, does the character swing with the free hand/fist too?

 

Do certain stats (mig, dex or per) benefit particular styles more, and would it differ from class to class? Like for example, maybe a 2h warrior wants more might to hit harder, but a dual wield rogue wants more dex to hit faster (or per to hit more accurately?)

 

Apologies for so many questions... thanks

Edited April 20, 2018 by Conman

[Zoso der Goldene]

Sabre and dagger, rapier and stiletto, whatever the case may be.

Or is it better to not, and wield two harder hitting weapons like swords or axes?

 

I think my mind is being led astray from my "DPS" days in WoW, so not sure there is any benefit in this game to wielding a fast offhand.

Is there any math or calculation which suggests one is better than the other, or that it's the same, or different scenarios where one is better than the other?

 

Side note: why does this forum seem to love hatchets?

If you do the math for raw DPS output (not counting Damage Reduction), nothing beats dual-wielding two light weapons.

The effect becomes stronger the heavier your armor is.

If you rely on hitting at all, you're better of dual-wielding light weapons, unless your accuracy is ~80 lower than the target's deflection.

If you factor in DR, the break-even is somewhere north of 30 depending on the exact context (e.g. stiletto? dagger?).

So if you don't focus on interrupt or status effects only found on heavier weapons and don't need the extra protection from a shield, chances are you should be dual wielding light weapons.

[Boeroer]

But only if you look at auto-attacks. As soon as you throw Full Attacks like Flames of Devotion and strong Primary Attacks like (Runner's) Wounding Shots into the mix you'd be better off with dual wielding heavy one handers or even with a two hander (or an arquebus).

 

It really depends on your class and build.

 

If you dual wield you'll be faster automatically (equivalent of a 50% speed bonus). The Two Weapon Style comes on top of that.

Single Weapon usage gives you +12 accuracy automatically. Hit to crit conversion comes on top with the style.

 

So it's speed vs. accuracy.

 

It doesn't work if you put the single weapon into your offhand because then the game thinks you want to dual wield fist + weapon. It only works when you put it into the main hand.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[Zoso der Goldene]

Could you elaborate?

Full attacks don't change the math speed-wise, and scale base weapon damage (i.e. effects are not multiplicative), so that should be even more reason to dual wield, because DR is even less of an issue. The same logic applies to conversion; it just scales damage on a graze or hit, so you have to graze or hit as often as possible.

Single-handed accuracy only matters if you wouldn't hit at all otherwise; in all other scenarios if looked at, accuracy pales in comparison to speed. It's almost twice as good as the single handed accuracy bonus when accuracy equlas defense, and it keeps getting better.

[Boeroer]

As I said: it depends on class and build. If you are a barbarian and want to cause overbearing as often as possible and also have Frenzy + Bloodlust you'd be better off with single weapon usage and style.

 

If you have Blood Thirst you want a heavy 2handed hitter like Firebrand or Tidefall.

 

For dps dual wielding doesn't do a lot for you if you are already near 0 recovery (with a single one hander, a shield + one hander or a two hander). Of course it's way easier to achieve 0 recovery with dual wielding.

 

If you want pure dps with auto-attacks and are not already at 0 recovery then dw light weapons is best.

 

If you have lots of Full Attacks (rogue for example) you should dual wield heavy one handers like sabres, hammers and so on. Just because the resources that provide Full Attacks are limited and you want to get the most out of them.

 

Another exception is the monk with Torment's Reach: it's a Full Attack with an AoE crush cone that doesn't rely on weapon damage and is not really limited as long as there's wounds. The more speed the more AoE dps. So using dw light weapons (or fists) is best despite the Full Attack. A good compromise between boosting the initial hit that gets +50% crushing lash and the dps of the AoE cone is a heavy hitter in the offhand and a light in the main hand.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Boeroer

[Zoso der Goldene]

As I said: it depends on class and build. If you are a barbarian and want to cause overbearing as often as possible and also have Frenzy + Bloodlust you'd be better off with single weapon usage and style.

 

If you have Blood Thirst you want a heavy 2handed hitter like Firebrand or Tidefall.

 

For dps dual wielding doesn't do a lot for you if you are already near 0 recovery (with a single one hander, a shield + one hander or a two hander). Of course it's way easier to achieve 0 recovery with dual wielding.

 

If you want pure dps with auto-attacks and are not already at 0 recovery then dw light weapons is best.

 

If you have lots of Full Attacks (rogue for example) you should dual wield heavy one handers like sabres, hammers and so on. Just because the resources that provide Full Attacks are limited and you want to get the most out of them.

 

Another exception is the monk with Torment's Reach: it's a Full Attack with an AoE crush cone that doesn't rely on weapon damage and is not really limited as long as there's wounds. The more speed the more AoE dps. So using dw light weapons (or fists) is best despite the Full Attack. A good compromise between boosting the initial hit that gets +50% crushing lash and the dps of the AoE cone is a heavy hitter in the offhand and a light in the main hand.

Thanks for the reply!I agree that there might be builds where this is different (e.g. I don't know enough about Barbarians to judge, but sounds like it's definitely worth looking into), and some heavier weapons e.g. apply status effects that are desirable.

But I don't get the Rogue / Full Attack part.

While it's true that the additional damage on one attack will help the heavier weapons to make up some of the difference for a given time frame, there are a couple of issues that diminish and ultimately revert that effect:

* Any kind of DR will increase the relative gain with smaller weapons.

* These Full Attacks do 25% or 50% more base weapon damage, but also apply a status effect that allows for sneak attacks or death blows. While it's true that it might not always trigger, or might not always be relevant (as the target might already be prone, flanked, blinded, etc.), it will trigger often enough to turn enough of the follow up auto-attacks into Sneak Attacks (for all rogues) or Death Blows (for those who took it). Again it's more beneficial to strike more often then to hit harder (less then one attack for the duration of the effect is more than enough to offset the 25% or 50% full attack damage).

* On a related note, the more frequent attacks also make it more likely for Finishing Blow to make sense, or for its passive cousins Bloody Slaughter or Death's Usher to trigger. Given, that's usually overkill and depends on your build, but it's a nice side effect of striking and hitting more often.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Zoso der Goldene

[Boeroer]

It depends on the enemy, items and build. For example Resolution + Purgatory against Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger vs. enemy with 0 DR and 10 DR:

 

Resolution + Purgatory with a Blinding Strike that crits twice (rel. common because of +1 ACC per char level):

 

13.5[avg. base] × (1 + 0.2[sharp] + 0.25[blinding Strike] +0.5[sneak Attack] +1[crit + annihilating]) = ~40 x 1.25[lash] = ~50 dmg against 0 DR
50 damage x 2 [Full Attack] = 100 dmg against 0 DR
Full Attack takes 65 frames (DEX 15, Two Weapon Style)

 

Against 10 DR it would be 40-10 = 30 + 40*0.25 - 10/4 = 37,5 * 2 = 75 dmg with 65 frames (lost 25% dmg due to DR)

 

Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger with a Blinding Strike that crits twice:

11[avg. base] × (1 + 0.25[blinding Strike] +0.5[sneak Attack] +0.51[crit]) = ~25 x 1.25[lash] = ~31 dmg against 0 DR

31 dmg x 2 [Full Attack] = 62 dmg against 0 DR (38% damage loss compared to sabres)
Full Attack takes 37 frames (DEX 15, Two Weapon Style) - [43% speed gain compared to sabres]

 

Against 10 DR it would be 25-7 = 18 + 25*0.25 - 10/4 = ~22 + 25-10 = 15 + 25*0.25 - 10/4 = ~19 = 41 dmg with 37 frames (lost ~34% dmg due to DR, 45% dmg loss compared to sabres).

 

A rogue who mainly uses Full Attacks (and probably kills enemies with a single Full Attack often when he flanks) should use stuf like sabres or battle axes while a rogue who initiates with a srike ability and then finishes off the enemy with auto-attacks should use light weapons. But as I said it also dpends on the specific weapon. For example I would always use Drawn in Spring over anything else as a rogue.

 

Another extreme example would be a barbarian with Heart of Fury or a Paladin who wants to use FoD twice as an alpha strike and then resort to supporting with a more defensive setup. They want to use the oe handers that hit the hardest. Speed doesn't matter that much in this case. In the case of the Barb it doesn't matter at all.

 

I agree that if you use Finishing Blow or even Bloody Slaughter (which is really bad) you should always use light weapons. I also generally agree that a combo like Rapier + Dagger is superior if you tend to use auto-attacks. I alsoways advocate for Sword and Daenysis + March Steel (and later Drawn in Spring) but usually people don't like to see the low damage numbers in the early game.

 

PS: try a barb with Firebrand + Blood Thirst, Frenzy + Bloodlust and all the dmg mods you can get. It's jawdropping.

 

 
 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Boeroer