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Two-Weapon Fighting and Assassinate

Assassin Dual Wield

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#1
KaineParker

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Having played around with the Assassin, I've noticed that Assassinate only works on the first attack when dual wielding, even if activating an ability that is a full attack such as Blinding Strike. Given that Assassinate apparently applies to all projectiles from a spell, would it make sense for it to apply to the first full attack from stealth instead of only the primary attack in order to be more useful with dual-wielding than with single-handed or two-handed weapons?

#2
hilfazer

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Dual wielding should not be better at special attacks than 2H because it's better at auto attacks.

 

Your suggestion could maybe be implemented after dual wielding gains damage penalty which seems to be needed.



#3
KaineParker

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Dual wielding should not be better at special attacks than 2H because it's better at auto attacks.

Aside from Assasinate, Dual wielding already is better than 2H at special full attacks.

Your suggestion could maybe be implemented after dual wielding gains damage penalty which seems to be needed.

Dual wielding doesn't need a damage penalty, 2H needs a penetration boost. That would put the trade offs as similar to PoE as possible.
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#4
SaruNi

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Having played around with the Assassin, I've noticed that Assassinate only works on the first attack when dual wielding, even if activating an ability that is a full attack such as Blinding Strike. Given that Assassinate apparently applies to all projectiles from a spell, would it make sense for it to apply to the first full attack from stealth instead of only the primary attack in order to be more useful with dual-wielding than with single-handed or two-handed weapons?

 

Assassinate only applies to the first projectile from a spell (unless it's changed very recently). Likewise it doesn't apply to jumps from spells. (However if a spell attacks multiple targets simultaneously in AoE---fireball etc---it will apply to all those attack rolls.)

 

Btw if you're assuming "dual wield is the default for rogues in most fantasy RPG games these days, therefore it should be the best assassinate style" that's not true of fantasy literature (or physical reality); the archetypal backstab weapon would be single weapon dagger, which is currently underpowered for assassinate (except maybe against enemies with extremely high deflection). 


Edited by SaruNi, 13 January 2018 - 01:03 PM.


#5
KaineParker

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Having played around with the Assassin, I've noticed that Assassinate only works on the first attack when dual wielding, even if activating an ability that is a full attack such as Blinding Strike. Given that Assassinate apparently applies to all projectiles from a spell, would it make sense for it to apply to the first full attack from stealth instead of only the primary attack in order to be more useful with dual-wielding than with single-handed or two-handed weapons?

 
Assassinate only applies to the first projectile from a spell (unless it's changed very recently). Likewise it doesn't apply to jumps from spells. (However if a spell attacks multiple targets simultaneously in AoE---fireball etc---it will apply to all those attack rolls.)

It was showing up for me on the minor missile and the bounding missile. Regardless, if it applies to AoE I think it should apply to all projectiles hitting one target and all attacks in a full attack.

#6
SaruNi

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Having played around with the Assassin, I've noticed that Assassinate only works on the first attack when dual wielding, even if activating an ability that is a full attack such as Blinding Strike. Given that Assassinate apparently applies to all projectiles from a spell, would it make sense for it to apply to the first full attack from stealth instead of only the primary attack in order to be more useful with dual-wielding than with single-handed or two-handed weapons?

 
Assassinate only applies to the first projectile from a spell (unless it's changed very recently). Likewise it doesn't apply to jumps from spells. (However if a spell attacks multiple targets simultaneously in AoE---fireball etc---it will apply to all those attack rolls.)

 

It was showing up for me on the minor missile and the bounding missile. Regardless, if it applies to AoE I think it should apply to all projectiles hitting one target and all attacks in a full attack.

 

 

Tested it just now, Minor Missiles and Bounding Missiles are currently applying Assassinate only to the first projectile.



#7
KaineParker

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Having played around with the Assassin, I've noticed that Assassinate only works on the first attack when dual wielding, even if activating an ability that is a full attack such as Blinding Strike. Given that Assassinate apparently applies to all projectiles from a spell, would it make sense for it to apply to the first full attack from stealth instead of only the primary attack in order to be more useful with dual-wielding than with single-handed or two-handed weapons?

 
Assassinate only applies to the first projectile from a spell (unless it's changed very recently). Likewise it doesn't apply to jumps from spells. (However if a spell attacks multiple targets simultaneously in AoE---fireball etc---it will apply to all those attack rolls.)

It was showing up for me on the minor missile and the bounding missile. Regardless, if it applies to AoE I think it should apply to all projectiles hitting one target and all attacks in a full attack.

 
Tested it just now, Minor Missiles and Bounding Missiles are currently applying Assassinate only to the first projectile.

I reinstalled and got the same result. Maybe a bug or using that invisibility ability. Regardless, I think projectiles all should benefit from assassinate.

#8
SaruNi

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Having played around with the Assassin, I've noticed that Assassinate only works on the first attack when dual wielding, even if activating an ability that is a full attack such as Blinding Strike. Given that Assassinate apparently applies to all projectiles from a spell, would it make sense for it to apply to the first full attack from stealth instead of only the primary attack in order to be more useful with dual-wielding than with single-handed or two-handed weapons?

 
Assassinate only applies to the first projectile from a spell (unless it's changed very recently). Likewise it doesn't apply to jumps from spells. (However if a spell attacks multiple targets simultaneously in AoE---fireball etc---it will apply to all those attack rolls.)

 

It was showing up for me on the minor missile and the bounding missile. Regardless, if it applies to AoE I think it should apply to all projectiles hitting one target and all attacks in a full attack.

 

 
Tested it just now, Minor Missiles and Bounding Missiles are currently applying Assassinate only to the first projectile.

 

I reinstalled and got the same result. Maybe a bug or using that invisibility ability. Regardless, I think projectiles all should benefit from assassinate.

 

 

It's definitely counterintuitive (to humans as opposed to computers) and seems likely to be unintended. However I do like having spells with multiple attack rolls base the attack roll off the caster's state at the time of each attack roll, rather than the initial cast, because it lets you apply assassinate or (if pre-casting) Berserk and other buffs to Chill Fog, Returning Storm (which can't be precast btw), et cetera (and Transmuters and Druids need buffing more than Evokers do). 

 

There's also a benefit to the missiles themselves---if you're using Death Godlike and want to apply the Near Death bonus damage, whether they're Near Death or not will get recalculated for each missile.


Edited by SaruNi, 13 January 2018 - 02:03 PM.


#9
SaruNi

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Healing over time appears to work the same way---spell power level and resolve are determined at each healing tick, not when the spell was cast. (Tested on a Lifegiver Druid---exit spiritshift form and the healing over time spells you've cast immediately have their healing reduced. But this also means you can have a Lifegiver or Priest cast a healing over time spell while another character is casting a buff to resolve (or inspiration for Nature Godlike bonus).)

 

For example, you could have a Troubadour or Skald wait 3 seconds or 1 crit in order to fast-cast the AoE cone Resolve inspiration + Strength inspiration invocation on the Lifegiver who's simultaneously casting Moonwell or The Moon Light's, and you don't have to worry about timing it so that the invocation comes before the casting (the strength inspiration triggers Wellspring of Life for +2 power levels).


Edited by SaruNi, 13 January 2018 - 03:16 PM.

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#10
KaineParker

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However I do like having spells with multiple attack rolls base the attack roll off the caster's state at the time of each attack roll, rather than the initial cast, because it lets you apply assassinate or (if pre-casting) Berserk and other buffs to Chill Fog, Returning Storm (which can't be precast btw), et cetera (and Transmuters and Druids need buffing more than Evokers do).

I don't in the case of Assassinate with projectile spells or dual wield full attacks, given that the attack itself is executed at the same time it onlly makes sense for both weapon strikes or simultaneous projectiles to benefit from it. Otherwise I think it's a case by case, something like Necrotic Lance that relies on an initial hit to work I'd want Assassinate to buff the whole thing while an ability that creates an AoE that rolls for each hit I'd only want the initial hit to matter.

#11
SaruNi

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However I do like having spells with multiple attack rolls base the attack roll off the caster's state at the time of each attack roll, rather than the initial cast, because it lets you apply assassinate or (if pre-casting) Berserk and other buffs to Chill Fog, Returning Storm (which can't be precast btw), et cetera (and Transmuters and Druids need buffing more than Evokers do).

I don't in the case of Assassinate with projectile spells or dual wield full attacks, given that the attack itself is executed at the same time it onlly makes sense for both weapon strikes or simultaneous projectiles to benefit from it. Otherwise I think it's a case by case, something like Necrotic Lance that relies on an initial hit to work I'd want Assassinate to buff the whole thing while an ability that creates an AoE that rolls for each hit I'd only want the initial hit to matter.

 

 

The attack is ordered at the same time, but both weapons do not hit at the same time. One attack launches first, and the other follows just after. (Which is also how it usually works in our physical reality.) That brief space of time gives the opponent some opportunity to start to shift around and defend. With projectiles---well it's magic, there's no reason why you couldn't first generate 5 projectiles and then have them hit at the same time; but that's not how it is currently.

 

Think about a spell like Returning Storm---does it really make more sense for only the initial attack roll to matter? For a spell like Chill Fog, you can think of it as maintaining the magical energy with each attack roll, so that an increase in your resolve or power level will increase the intensity of your spell---and if you're hidden, your pulses can take the enemy by surprise. 

 

Ultimately, from a balance standpoint, it helps casters (other than assassin/casters and evokers) because they can cast AoE spells with duration that have multiple attack rolls and then use/receive accuracy buffs so those spells have a higher chance of actually hitting and/or doing more damage on subsequent attack rolls.


Edited by SaruNi, 13 January 2018 - 05:53 PM.


#12
KaineParker

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The attack is ordered at the same time, but both weapons do not hit at the same time. One attack launches first, and the other follows just after. (Which is also how it usually works in our physical reality.) That brief space of time gives the opponent some opportunity to start to shift around and defend.

In game it isn't a particularly long amount of time, far shorter than normal attacks and more than enough for both to count as sneak attacks. I don't see it being particularly game breaking to hit with assassinate(or backstab) with a full attack when dual wielding, especially considering the same balance issues vs 2h or 1h still exist(hopefully with a balance to make 2h better) for the full attack itself.

With projectiles---well it's magic, there's no reason why you couldn't first generate 5 projectiles and then have them hit at the same time; but that's not how it is currently.

Which imo is a problem for those spells. Assuming a similar power level and no awful balance, there would be no reason to use a multiple projectile spell over
a single attack spell with assassinate, backstab, or any other single attack modifer. With the very limited spell selection, this is a potential for a bad build.

Think about a spell like Returning Storm---does it really make more sense for only the initial attack roll to matter? For a spell like Chill Fog, you can think of it as maintaining the magical energy with each attack roll, so that an increase in your resolve or power level will increase the intensity of your spell---and if you're hidden, your pulses can take the enemy by surprise.

No, which why I'm against that. I'm for things like Necrotic Lance getting a single attack roll for both initial damage and damage over time.

#13
hilfazer

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Dual wielding should not be better at special attacks than 2H because it's better at auto attacks.

Aside from Assasinate, Dual wielding already is better than 2H at special full attacks.

Your suggestion could maybe be implemented after dual wielding gains damage penalty which seems to be needed.

Dual wielding doesn't need a damage penalty, 2H needs a penetration boost. That would put the trade offs as similar to PoE as possible.

 

 

I heard dual wielding is much above other styles but maybe i was lied to.

Assuming i wasn't, if you boost 2h there would be 2 styles way better than other 2. Nerfing DW's damage would be better for balance.



#14
KaineParker

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Dual wielding should not be better at special attacks than 2H because it's better at auto attacks.

Aside from Assasinate, Dual wielding already is better than 2H at special full attacks.

Your suggestion could maybe be implemented after dual wielding gains damage penalty which seems to be needed.

Dual wielding doesn't need a damage penalty, 2H needs a penetration boost. That would put the trade offs as similar to PoE as possible.

 
I heard dual wielding is much above other styles but maybe i was lied to.
Assuming i wasn't, if you boost 2h there would be 2 styles way better than other 2. Nerfing DW's damage would be better for balance.

We already have two syles better than the other one(not counting shields because they exist to help with defense instead of offense), last I looked at data crunching Dual-Wielding and Single-Weapon both out DPS Two-Handed. Dual Wielding had higher potential DPS in PoE, but single handed had an advantage in accuracy while Two-Handed was able to do significantly better against targets with high damage reduction. With PoE2's armor system Penetration vs Armor has replaced Damage vs Damage Reduction, since Two-Handed weapons use the same penetration values as one-handed weapons Two-Handed no longer has an advantage over dual-wielding for actual DPS with armor factored in and is outshined by single-handed because 12 accuracy seems to be more beneficial to combat than the higher base damage. My solution would be to have Two-Handed weapons have 2 higher base penetration than single-handed weapons, this would restore the PoE tradeoffs by making Dual-Wielding the highest potential DPS, Single-Handed the most accurate, Two-Handed the best against high armor enemies, and Shields for avoiding damage.

#15
SaruNi

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The attack is ordered at the same time, but both weapons do not hit at the same time. One attack launches first, and the other follows just after. (Which is also how it usually works in our physical reality.) That brief space of time gives the opponent some opportunity to start to shift around and defend.

In game it isn't a particularly long amount of time, far shorter than normal attacks and more than enough for both to count as sneak attacks. I don't see it being particularly game breaking to hit with assassinate(or backstab) with a full attack when dual wielding, especially considering the same balance issues vs 2h or 1h still exist(hopefully with a balance to make 2h better) for the full attack itself.

With projectiles---well it's magic, there's no reason why you couldn't first generate 5 projectiles and then have them hit at the same time; but that's not how it is currently.

Which imo is a problem for those spells. Assuming a similar power level and no awful balance, there would be no reason to use a multiple projectile spell over
a single attack spell with assassinate, backstab, or any other single attack modifer. With the very limited spell selection, this is a potential for a bad build.

Think about a spell like Returning Storm---does it really make more sense for only the initial attack roll to matter? For a spell like Chill Fog, you can think of it as maintaining the magical energy with each attack roll, so that an increase in your resolve or power level will increase the intensity of your spell---and if you're hidden, your pulses can take the enemy by surprise.

No, which why I'm against that. I'm for things like Necrotic Lance getting a single attack roll for both initial damage and damage over time.

 

 

Necrotic Lance and many other DoT do in fact only get a single attack roll for both initial damage and damage over time. However, their DoT is dependent on the caster's state at each tick, so an increase in Resolve after the spell is cast will increase the DoT. 



#16
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The attack is ordered at the same time, but both weapons do not hit at the same time. One attack launches first, and the other follows just after. (Which is also how it usually works in our physical reality.) That brief space of time gives the opponent some opportunity to start to shift around and defend.

In game it isn't a particularly long amount of time, far shorter than normal attacks and more than enough for both to count as sneak attacks. I don't see it being particularly game breaking to hit with assassinate(or backstab) with a full attack when dual wielding, especially considering the same balance issues vs 2h or 1h still exist(hopefully with a balance to make 2h better) for the full attack itself.

With projectiles---well it's magic, there's no reason why you couldn't first generate 5 projectiles and then have them hit at the same time; but that's not how it is currently.

Which imo is a problem for those spells. Assuming a similar power level and no awful balance, there would be no reason to use a multiple projectile spell over
a single attack spell with assassinate, backstab, or any other single attack modifer. With the very limited spell selection, this is a potential for a bad build.

Think about a spell like Returning Storm---does it really make more sense for only the initial attack roll to matter? For a spell like Chill Fog, you can think of it as maintaining the magical energy with each attack roll, so that an increase in your resolve or power level will increase the intensity of your spell---and if you're hidden, your pulses can take the enemy by surprise.

No, which why I'm against that. I'm for things like Necrotic Lance getting a single attack roll for both initial damage and damage over time.

 
Necrotic Lance and many other DoT do in fact only get a single attack roll for both initial damage and damage over time. However, their DoT is dependent on the caster's state at each tick, so an increase in Resolve after the spell is cast will increase the DoT.

Which is what I object to and would prefer the state at hit be what determines DoT power for spells like that.
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