Constitution vs. others

[AndreaColombo]

So Goldpact’s still at +4? Does it stack with Hardy?

[KDubya]

So Goldpact’s still at +4? Does it stack with Hardy?

 

No stacking with Hardy or with the Zealous endurance aura, which also do not stack with each other.

[AndreaColombo]

Stacking rules need help. Hopefully they’re on the drawing board; it would be a shame if the game shipped with messy, counter-intuitive stacking rules and people had to find out the hard way that the clever combos they thought of won’t work.

[Raenvan]

The armor and penetration discussion in another thread gave me an idea:

 

• What if instead of dexterity and wearing armor, you instead went heavy constitution and went naked? Consider one with 16 dex and one with 16 con 
•  
  • ​​The naked guy has robe for 3 armor,
    • ​Two hander attack is 0.7 attack and 3.0 recovery, 3.7 seconds total
    • ​Dual wield slow is 0.7 attack and 1.5 recovery, 2.2 seconds total
    • Dual wield fast is 0.5 attack and 1.0 recovery. 1.5 seconds total

       

  • The 16 dexer with light armor (5 armor) has this for attack
    • Two hander is .6 attack and 3.1recovery, 3.7 seconds total
    • Dual wielding slow is 0.6 attack and 1.5 recovery, 2.1 seconds total
    • Dual wield fast is 0.4 attack and 1.0 recovery, 1.4 seconds total
  • The 16 dexer with medium armor (7 armor)
    • Two hander is 0.6 attack and 3.5 recovery, 4.1 seconds total
    • Dual wield slow is 0.6 attack and 1.6 recovery, 2.2 seconds total
    • Dual wield fast is 0.4 attack and 1.1 recovery, 1.5 seconds total
  • The 16 dexer with heavy armor (9 armor)
    • Two hander is 0.6 attack and 4.1 recovery, 4.7 seconds total
    • Dual wield slow is 0.6 attack and 1.8 recovery, 2.4 seconds total
    • Dual wield fast is 0.4 attack and 1.2 recovery, 1.6 seconds total
• Observations
  • Worse case is over-penetration attack and you take +30% damage which is offset by your 16 con's +30% health
  • Two handed weapon users want as little armor as possible
  • Dual wielding should go as heavy armor as possible
  • A naked two hander is equal in damage output as a light armor dexer and only less survivable when penetration =3 where you take full damage and the dexer takes -50%. At 4 pen you take full and he takes -25% but you have +30% health, at 5 pen both take full, at 6 pen you take +30% and he takes full. 
  • A naked dual wielder is equal in damage output as a medium armor dexer and only less survivable when penetration =3, 4, 5, 6, and  7, at 8 pen you are at +30% and he is at full damage which equates your con.
  • Unless you have enough armor to stay above the enemy pen, its better to go naked as long as you invested in con.

I'm thinking a naked GoldPact Corpse Eater (goldpact armor suppresses the Berserker armor) with at least 16 con is the next I'm trying or the old Bleak Walker/Berserker and lose out on two armor and gain 2 penetration ..... 

 

Nice idea and clear examples! Haven't checked the math, but this comparsion might work similarly between heavy/medium armored high Dex guy and medium/low armored high Con guy.

 

Given the current speed and health bonuses and armor/penetration values, various characters can benefit from moving 6 points of Dex into Con. Including those who plan to wear any light/med/heavy armor, have at least about 10 Dex and not more than 12 Con. As pointed out, this change

• can grant similar DPS after armor switched to one or two grades lighter, because lower overall speed is compensated by lighter armor.
• gives 30% larger health, which usually overcompensates the possibly larger penetration from enemies.

Exceptions include purposely very fast characters who usually wear only robes, and those who already had high enough Constitution.

 

This observation can be a good argument against treating Con as a (second) dump stat.

[dunehunter]

One idea comes through my mind for Con, can we make Con to reduce recovery time penalty for armors, similar to Armored Grace, so high Con character will benefit more from wearing heavy armors.

 

Because if an attribute only functions as an offense or defense stats, then it’s unavoidable for it to be a dump stats for certain build (tank dump dex, dps dump Con).

 

So if we mix every stats with both offense/defense side, it becomes hard to dump any. And the only offensive side of Con that make sense to me is reduced armor penalty. So high Con character can wear heavy armor and attack faster than low Con character.

 

Specially now u can build a 3 Con character with super heavy armor and keeps healing yourself, I think u will be more tanky than any high Con low armor characters. Make Con ties to armor can solve this issue partially imo.

Edited December 26, 2017 by dunehunter

[Nail]

That's why I asked for any arena pvp so much on baker stage...

I like to test these thing a lot, finding the best solution.

A pity it's only my dreams.

Still AI system was made as I asked, that's something!

[KDubya]

On my last run had two berserker/goldpacts, one went heavy armor and the other went with robes, both dual wielded sabre + rapier. The super heavy armor guy did way better. With fine plate, thick skin, goldpact gilded enmity and triumphant defense he had armor in the 15-17 and never got penetrated. The robe gut had armor 9-11 but that still gets penetrated.

 

Naked might lose out to heavy armor but it is always better than light and most always better than medium.

 

Pumping con can be good but pumping con and wearing heavy armor is even better.

[Raenvan]

On my last run had two berserker/goldpacts, one went heavy armor and the other went with robes, both dual wielded sabre + rapier. The super heavy armor guy did way better. With fine plate, thick skin, goldpact gilded enmity and triumphant defense he had armor in the 15-17 and never got penetrated. The robe gut had armor 9-11 but that still gets penetrated.

 

Naked might lose out to heavy armor but it is always better than light and most always better than medium.

 

Pumping con can be good but pumping con and wearing heavy armor is even better.

 

Would you share Dex and Con of the two warriors, and what you meant under "super heavy armor guy did way better."  It's no surprise he wasn't penetrated, but I suppose the heavy armor guy must have had even higher Dex if their DPS matched.

[KDubya]

 

On my last run had two berserker/goldpacts, one went heavy armor and the other went with robes, both dual wielded sabre + rapier. The super heavy armor guy did way better. With fine plate, thick skin, goldpact gilded enmity and triumphant defense he had armor in the 15-17 and never got penetrated. The robe gut had armor 9-11 but that still gets penetrated.

 

Naked might lose out to heavy armor but it is always better than light and most always better than medium.

 

Pumping con can be good but pumping con and wearing heavy armor is even better.

 

Would you share Dex and Con of the two warriors, and what you meant under "super heavy armor guy did way better."  It's no surprise he wasn't penetrated, but I suppose the heavy armor guy must have had even higher Dex if their DPS matched.

 

 

The attack speed was greater for the naked guy so on paper he had more DPS.

 

In game the naked guy took a lot more damage and had to be aware of tracking his own health and looking for heals. The super armored Berserker never needed a heal, he was just a killing machine a sort of medieval Terminator that never  stopped.

 

The attack speed boost from dual wielding at -50% is such that armor is barely a deterrent with regards to speed. Attacking 0.4 seconds faster is not enough to make up for the loss of armor.

 

Now two handed ends up with a much larger speed difference of going from like a 4.7 sec recovery to 3.7 seconds, but currently there is not much of a reason to go with two handed weapons as they are just inferior, better to single wield a sabre, or just dual wield.

 

The experiment just highlighted how much better dual wielding is and how poor light and medium armor are compared to either heavy or just going with robes.

[Raenvan]

The attack speed was greater for the naked guy so on paper he had more DPS.

 

In game the naked guy took a lot more damage and had to be aware of tracking his own health and looking for heals. The super armored Berserker never needed a heal, he was just a killing machine a sort of medieval Terminator that never  stopped.

 

The attack speed boost from dual wielding at -50% is such that armor is barely a deterrent with regards to speed. Attacking 0.4 seconds faster is not enough to make up for the loss of armor.

 

Now two handed ends up with a much larger speed difference of going from like a 4.7 sec recovery to 3.7 seconds, but currently there is not much of a reason to go with two handed weapons as they are just inferior, better to single wield a sabre, or just dual wield.

 

The experiment just highlighted how much better dual wielding is and how poor light and medium armor are compared to either heavy or just going with robes.

 

The conclusions about dual wielding and armors seem correct, something needs to be done to make two handed weapons viable.

 

Your experiment had one more important ingredient: how much stronger the heavy armored Berserker/Goldpact with all those nice stuff is than a regular warrior. If one plays such an invincible character, (many of) his attributes hardly matter at all.

 

It was proposed in this topic to decrease his Constitution, since he doesn't need as much health. True. On the other hand, he doesn't need higher Dexterity, Might/Strength, Perception either, as these would only shorten his fights by roughly 3% per point, but time isn't relevant for him, having been unhittable.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Raenvan