Abilities - what to do with them?

[CENIC]

We have a lot of threads discussing changes to abilities in Deadfire and whether they are good or bad, but not many threads discussing how abilities ought to be implemented. Everyone has a different opinion on how abilities should be handled, whether making them all universal or splitting them up among the different classes.

 

Let's discuss our preferences here.

Myself, I'll list all of the abilities, how they were implemented in Pillars of Eternity, how they've been implemented in Deadfire, and finally, what I think should be done with them.

 

Please feel free to rip my suggestions apart, or offer counterpoints.

 

Two Weapon Style - (Passive) +20% attack speed while dual-wielding

One-Handed Style - (Passive) +15% of hits converted to crits while wielding just a one-handed weapon

Two-Handed Style - (Passive) +15% damage while wielding a two-handed weapon

Weapon and Shield Style - (Passive) +6 Deflection while wielding a shield, and equipped shield's Deflection added to reflexes defense

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These passive abilities were available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: These passive abilities are available to Fighters only starting at level 1.

 

My opinion? Allow a character to select ONE of these at character creation. Fighters will have ALL FOUR in their passive ability tree. All characters will be skilled in a favorite combat style, but Fighters will maintain flexibility.

 

Savage Attack - (Modal) +20% melee damage, -5 Accuracy

Vulnerable Attack - (Modal) +5 melee damage reduction bypass, -20% melee attack speed

Cautious Attack - (Modal) +8 Deflection, -20% attack speed

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These modal abilities were available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: These abilities were not carried into Deadfire.

 

My opinion? Combine these into a modal for Fighters and maybe Barbarians. Change Interrupting Blows to Interrupting Attack and add it to this new modal.

 

Envenomed Strike - (3/rest) Raw damage to single enemy for 9 seconds vs. Fortitude

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This per rest ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: This ability was not carried into Deadfire.

 

My opinion? Give this to Rogue and maybe Ranger.

 

Marksman - (Passive) +5 Accuracy with ranged weapons against distant enemies

Gunner - (Passive) +20% reload speed for firearms and crossbows

Shot on the Run - (Passive) +25% recovery speed of ranged weapons while moving

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These passive abilities were available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: These passive abilities are available to Rangers only starting at level 2. 

 

My opinion? These need to be available to ALL classes again. If any class can use ranged weaponry and firearms, they deserve access to these passive abilities.

 

Beast Slayer - (Passive) +25% damage against Beasts

Primal Bane - (Passive) +25% damage against Primordials

Ghost Hunter - (Passive) +25% damage against Spirits

Sanctifier - (Passive) +25% damage against Vessels

Wilder Hunter - (Passive) +25% damage against Wilders

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These passive abilities were available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: Wilder Hunter is available to Barbarians only starting at level 2. The other abilities were not carried into Deadfire.

 

My opinion? Giving Wilder Hunter to Barbarian and ignoring the rest seems... arbitrary. Give these to Ranger. If a Ranger chooses to spend points to get all of these, he can be great at auto-attacking everything!

 

Interrupting Blows - (Passive) +15 interrupt

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Barbarian only starting at level 5.

 

My opinion? Loved this in Pillars of Eternity, BUT... I think it should be reworked into a modal, combined with Savage/Vulnerable/Cautious Attack, and given to Fighters as well as Barbarians.

 

Penetrating Shot - (Modal) +5 ranged damage reduction bypass, -20% ranged attack speed

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This modal ability was available to ALL characters starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: This ability was not carried into Deadfire.

 

My opinion? So, Savage Attack for ranged characters? Make corresponding ranged modals for Vulnerable Attack, Cautious Attack, and Interrupting Attack and give it to Ranger.

 

Bloody Slaughter - (Passive) +20% of hits converted to crits on enemies with low (<10%) Endurance. Crits done this way have +50% crit damage multiplier

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Barbarian only starting at level 3.

 

My opinion? Pretty okay with Barbarians having this, actually, but give it to Rogues too.

 

Hold the Line - (Passive) +1 Engagement limit

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Fighters only starting at level 3. 

 

My opinion? Fighters deserve this one. Maaaaaybe give it to some of the other "Defender" classes too? Would provide more flexibility and options for tanks. Might be cool if it stacks for a multi-classed dual "Defender".

 

Snake's Reflexes - (Passive) +10 Reflex defense

Bear's Fortitude - (Passive) +10 Fortitude defense

Bull's Will - (Passive) +10 Will defense

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These passive abilities were available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: These passive abilities are available to Monks and Druids starting at level 1. Rogues get Snake's Reflexes only starting at level 2.

 

My opinion? Giving these to Druid seems... arbitrary. I guess because they are named after animals? It's fine on Monk, but give it to other "Defender" classes too, like Fighter, Paladin, and Barbarian, for the same reason as Hold the Line. Rogue... I'd prefer to see this replaced with other talents, see below.

 

Graceful Retreat - (Passive) +12 defense against disengagement attacks

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability is available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Monks only starting at level 2.

 

My opinion? This is fine for Monks. I'd like Rogues to have access to it too.

 

Mental Fortress - (Passive) +10 defense against Charmed, Confused, Dominated, Frightened, and Terrified

Body Control - (Passive) +10 defense against Paralyzed, Petrified, Sickened, Stunned, and Weakened

Unstoppable - (Passive) +10 defense against Blinded, Dazed, Hobbled, Prone, and Stuck

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These passive abilities were available to ALL classes starting at level 6.

In Deadfire: Body Control and Unstoppable are available to Fighters at level 4. Mental Fortress is available to Paladins at level 4.

 

My opinion? I think Fighters should have all three. Maaaaaaybe give all three to Paladins as well.

 

Superior Deflection - (Passive) +5 Deflection

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 6.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Fighters only starting at level 5.

 

My opinion? Not much to say here. I think Fighters deserve a bone or two thrown their way.

 

Fast Runner - (Passive) +1 to movement speed, and +5 to defense against disengagement attacks

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Barbarians only starting at level 2. 

 

My opinion? Another favorite of mine from Pillars of Eternity. It's unfair that Barbarians get exclusive access to this when they already have Wild Sprint! Give this to Monks and Rogues too.

 

Scion of Flame - (Passive) +5 burn damage reduction, and +20% to all burn damage you deal

Heart of the Storm - (Passive) +5 shock damage reduction, and +20% to all shock damage you deal

Spirit of Decay - (Passive) +5 corrode damage reduction, and +20% to all corrode damage you deal

Secrets of Rime - (Passive) +5 freeze damage reduction, and +20% to all freeze damage you deal

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These passive abilities were available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: These abilities were not carried into Deadfire.

 

My opinion? Give these to Wizards and Druids. I really, REALLY want Priests of Magran to get Scion of Flame at level 1, but there is nothing corresponding to give to the other Priests! (I can't be the only one who liked giving this to Durance, right?)

 

Quick Switch - -1.5 weapon change recovery, -4 grimoire cooldown

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Fighters only starting at level 4.

 

My opinion? This is kind of the Black Jacket's shtick, right? Let Fighter keep it, but if it is going to affect grimoire swapping speeds as well, give it to Wizards too, since switching grimoires is going to be even more important in Deadfire than it was in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Wound Binding - (1/rest) 40% self-healing of Health over 9 seconds

Field Triage - (1/rest) 20% healing of Health on ally over 9 seconds

 

In Pillars of Eternity: These per rest abilities are available to ALL classes starting at level 2.

In Deadfire: These abilities were not carried into Deadfire.

 

My opinion? Give these to Fighters. Throw them a bone.

 

Deep Pockets - (Passive) +2 quick item slots

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Rogues only starting at level 3.

 

My opinion? I never used this talent, so I can't speak to what classes it would be most suited for. From a lore perspective, it's fine on Rogues.

 

Arms Bearer - (Passive) +1 weapon set

 

In Pillars of Eternity: This passive ability was available to ALL classes starting at level 4.

In Deadfire: This passive ability is available to Fighters only starting at level 4.

 

My opinion? Again, this is Black Jacket's shtick. Let Fighters keep this.

Edited November 27, 2017 by CENIC

[theBalthazar]

Good ideas : )

 

Field Triage - (1/rest) 20% healing of Health on ally over 9 seconds

 

 

 

 

My opinion? Give these to Fighters.

 

 

 

Priest ? There are too few for priest.

Edited November 27, 2017 by theBalthazar

[CENIC]

Good ideas : )

 

 

Field Triage - (1/rest) 20% healing of Health on ally over 9 seconds

 

 

Priest? There are too few for priest

Because of how many spells you can use per encounter? Or because you can only take one spell per level? Or because Priests of Magran are locked out of Restoration spells?

 

Josh tweeted that he was going to remove the locked out spell types for Priests in the next beta update, so hopefully that will alleviate the problem.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

That's a great overall list but I want to nitpick it to death!

 

-- I'd roll Gunner and Marksman together into a "Ranged Weapon Focus" and treat it the same as the other weapon focuses (i.e., open to all).

 

-- Why does everyone forget ciphers when they make lists like this? Penetrating Shot was added to Ciphers (indirectly and renamed/redesigned as a general +1 to weapon pen); everyone forgets that Ciphers need passive weapon and damage talents just like the other weapon classes, or they can't gain focus!

 

-- There seems to have been a general design decision that modals are weapon proficiencies and not much else. I kinda agree with that. You can only deal with so many modals at once. A lot of those modals were either shifted to weapons or if they WERENT shifted to weapons would be better toned down and made into a passive or toned up and made into an active one-shot ability just so you odn't have to deal with multiple modals at once.

 

 

-- the various ____ slayer talents, ok, yeah, not bad to let rangers take them, but why class limit them at all, apart from "these are junk to take unless you REALLY know what you're doing, so let's keep people from making stupid mistakes?"

 

-- the various passive +stat/stat-resistance talents -- why not let everyone have those? If I want to make the World's Strongest Cipher or the World's Most Resolute Wizard, why gate that behind a multi-class choice? 

 

-- Similarly, the various elemental talents -- why not let people make fighters who do extra shock damage or ciphers who do extra flame or whatever? Those talents led to a lot of creative builds in the first game. Open that barn door wide, let people get their elemental thing on how they want, it's their game.

 

 

-- I'll play devil's advocate for a second and argue that *everyone* should get Quick Switch given the new emphasis on weapon switching under the new penetration system.

[CENIC]

-- I'd roll Gunner and Marksman together into a "Ranged Weapon Focus" and treat it the same as the other weapon focuses (i.e., open to all).

I can agree with this. I'm willing to compromise on other formerly universal talents, but weapon proficiency should stay universal.

 

-- Why does everyone forget ciphers when they make lists like this? Penetrating Shot was added to Ciphers (indirectly and renamed/redesigned as a general +1 to weapon pen); everyone forgets that Ciphers need passive weapon and damage talents just like the other weapon classes, or they can't gain focus!

I've been playing a multi-classed Cipher in the beta and I'm pretty happy with the abilities they have right now. Has your experience been different? I think there are other classes that need reshuffled talents more than Ciphers do.

 

-- There seems to have been a general design decision that modals are weapon proficiencies and not much else. I kinda agree with that. You can only deal with so many modals at once. A lot of those modals were either shifted to weapons or if they WERENT shifted to weapons would be better toned down and made into a passive or toned up and made into an active one-shot ability just so you odn't have to deal with multiple modals at once.

See, in my mind, modals are great when you want a low maintenance character. All you have to do is toggle the right modals for the job and let them go to work. I'm actually not a fan of how modals were rolled into weapon proficiency, and I'd rather take other talents than all the weapon proficiencies we're given...

 

-- the various passive +stat/stat-resistance talents -- why not let everyone have those? If I want to make the World's Strongest Cipher or the World's Most Resolute Wizard, why gate that behind a multi-class choice?

-- Similarly, the various elemental talents -- why not let people make fighters who do extra shock damage or ciphers who do extra flame or whatever? Those talents led to a lot of creative builds in the first game. Open that barn door wide, let people get their elemental thing on how they want, it's their game.

-- the various ____ slayer talents, ok, yeah, not bad to let rangers take them, but why class limit them at all, apart from "these are junk to take unless you REALLY know what you're doing, so let's keep people from making stupid mistakes?"

I'm trying to find a compromise that isn't "everything is universal." I think some talents do make sense on certain classes when you consider the lore and the class' description. Also - if Ranger is going to have "best class at ranged weapon damage" taken away so ALL classes can be good at ranged weapon damage, they need compensation. In my mind, the slayer talents are a way to do that. I don't think people care too much about losing those... do they?

 

 

-- I'll play devil's advocate for a second and argue that *everyone* should get Quick Switch given the new emphasis on weapon switching under the new penetration system.

I can agree with this.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

I've been playing a multi-classed Cipher in the beta and I'm pretty happy with the abilities they have right now. Has your experience been different? I think there are other classes that need reshuffled talents more than Ciphers do.

 

 

 

 

There are a few multiclass cipher builds that are very effective right now, but they tend to play weird (i.e., soulblade/assassin is great, but you never actually use cipher powers, you just use the soulblade raw damage special to burn focus for megadamage). If you try to just play a single class cipher it's very difficult -- focus gain rate was reduced vs. the first game, plus lack of grazing means it's harder to gain focus. On top of that, you have all the problems that other casters have (most cipher powers now have cast+recovery times equal to the effect durations, lack of grazing, etc.) plus you have to gain focus first before you can cast -- so a wizard or priest has usually dumped their whole spellbook by the time you've worked up that focus; the same focus mechanic that made Ciphers more versatile than Vancian casters in the first game makes them more restricted than the otherwise universal per-encounter format everyone else is using in Deadfire..

 

Multiclass ciphers tend to have less of a problem because the other class gives something to do while building focus and the soul whip power augments the first class's attacks effectively.  

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'm trying to find a compromise that isn't "everything is universal." I think some talents do make sense on certain classes when you consider the lore and the class' description. Also - if Ranger is going to have "best class at ranged weapon damage" taken away so ALL classes can be good at ranged weapon damage, they need compensation. In my mind, the slayer talents are a way to do that. I don't think people care too much about losing those... do they?

 

 

 

 

Fair point. I do think Rangers are going to be the best at ranged damage regardless, mostly due to things like Driving Flight and (presumably) Twinned Arrows. They did have a lot of their core abilities taken away to become weapon proficiencies though.

[Rafael Braga]

In my opinion this changes were completely bad. To the point of removing all my hype for the game.

They added the multiclass system, but by removing talents and adding all things as class abilities, they simple made the game a lot less customizable than before.

They gave 1 thing and removed 10, so all characters will be a lot more identical to one another, just with different names. 


My opinions they should gave back the talents every 2 levels, exactly like in PoE1 and you gain one ability for every class when you gain a new power level (again, as in PoE1), the only difference is that with multiclass you gain a new power level every 3 levels instead of 2. Simple, works, gives multiclass diversity and singleclass an edge.. everyone gets the same number of talents to work on (including in talents that boost class abilities).

Oh, also remove the penetration mechanic altogether... serious... remove it.

The only change needed in game mechanics from PoE1 is a much more clear attack speed X recovery explanation. Probably something on the UI showing it (both base and actual values after gear and stats).

Short version: Give talents back every 2 levels, 1 class ability for each class at each new power level.