Yet another retaliation post...

[BlackHat]

So I was trying to make a solo run retaliation cipher tank, but as I read up a bit closer, I realized a lot of the posts about it were made before the most recent updates; much of the information seems conflicting, and having recently played a melee ranger with Garodh's Helm, Sura's Supper Plate, and the Coat of ill Payment, I realized that I'm not sure all of those effects were actually functioning (perhaps some were suppressed, but with all the summons I had out the combat log was an absolute mess, and I didn't think to check the character page because - well hey, everything was dying around me anyway).

 

Anyway, I'm trying to build this fire godlike cipher tank, and my plan was to build around "on character hit" effects.

Sura's, Hiro's Mantle, binding rope, flame shield potions, Garodh's helm, coat of illiness, etc.  I'm wondering which, if any of the following are true:

 

1)Only sura's supper plate will stack retaliation with 1 armor effect of the same type

2) multiple "get hit" effects won't stack with retaliate (flameshield, battle forged, binding rope, pain link won't work with retaliate)

3)Combusting wounds no longer works on DOTs per tick

4)retaliation effects don't net any focus anymore

5) on that note, do spells from scrolls/items that do damage to enemies net any focus gain?

 

and also one more, since I'm considering a rogue instead of cipher for deep wounds/sneakattack, 6) does deep wounds no longer work on spells/retaliation/ damage shields(like flameshield/battleforged)

 

I know this topic seems to have dozens of older threads, so forgive me for necroing this topic yet again; I came back to/been playing POE for a few weeks now, and I hadn't played it since before white march 1 came out.  Back then, you could have more than half a dozen retaliate/on char hit effects active at the same time, and deep wounds worked on spells too.

 

Anyway, I'm open to any other advice here on a solo cipher tank;  If even half of the things on that list are accurate, it's not nearly as viable as it used to be, but I'm still looking to make it work.  Not as worried about other talents/class abilities, so long as I can generate enough focus to remain versatile/to keep casting.  I realize a lot of good buffs/spells require other party members (pain block comes to mind) but there are still plenty of useful cipher spells without them.

Edited November 9, 2017 by BlackHat

[Boeroer]

1) Sura's Supper Plate will stack with everything

2) retaliations an how they stack: Battle Forged stacks with 1 item-retaliation (type of retalition doesn't matter) that's not from Supper Plate (Garodh's Chorus OR Hiro's Mantle OR Coat of Ill Payment OR Vengiatta Rugia OR Binding Rope OR Lavender Wreath) + Flame Shield OR Wreathing Flame (from mantle) + Barbaric Retaliation + Pain Link + Supper Plate + Psychic/Brutal Backlash (now triggers unlimited times per encounter)

3) true

4) true

5) As far as I know only Spark the Souls of the Righteous (priest) does generate focus - maybe this got nerfed as well in the meantime. Usually only weapon attacks will generate focus.

 

Deep Wounds works with any source of damage that does pierce, slash or crush damage. Retaliation, spells, scrolls and so on (also in an AoE). Since Flame Shieldand Battle Forged do burn damage, they don't trigger Depp Wounds. Deep Wounds don't stack like wounding does! Only the duration will get "updated" a bit if you hit multiple times.

 

The cipher retaliation build used to be totally bonkers - now it's not as powerful any more. But with Psychic + Brutal Backlash which now gets triggered unlimited times per encounter there's anothe nice component. Anyways: with a multi-retaliation cipher + Pain Link + Combusting Wounds you can still do a lot of damage while using powers at the same time.

But the best retaliation builds nowadays come from the monk and barb class. Monks' TUrning Wheel, Lighting Strikes and Blood Testament Gloves all work with every damaging retaliation effect (adding tons of burn/shock/raw lash damage) + Rooting Pain - and barbs have some nice damage modifiers (One Stands Alone, Blooded), Barbaric Retaliation and a tremendous health pool.

 

Druid used to be OP as well with Avenging Storm + multiretaliation, but that got nerfed as well.

 

Wizards can be fun, too with Expose Vulnarabilites, Combusting Wounds, Minoletta's Piercing Sigil (doesn't stack with normal item retaliation though), high CON and lots of uses of Infuse with Vital Essence.

[BlackHat]

Thanks a lot, as always the Boeroer database > +10 lore ring.  Gonna try a few levels of cipher out (the versatility of spells really appeals to me for a solo run) but I gotta say, the more I look at it, the more I want to try something like a monksterlash build. 

 

For now, gonna try to make that cipher work.  I hear those first few levels on a potd solo run can be brutal until you start collecting the pieces of your gearset and get a few levels, but at least it'll be interesting.

 

Anyway thanks again, i'll keep it posted if/when I find the right concoction.

[Braven]

Ciphers backlash is unlimited? Wouldn’t that allow a cipher to easily dispatch enemies with a fear aura like dragons with stuns and raw damage?

Edited November 10, 2017 by Braven

[mosspit]

Ciphers backlash is unlimited? Wouldn’t that allow a cipher to easily dispatch enemies with a fear aura like dragons with stuns and raw damage?

Enjoy

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/93058-psychic-backlash/?do=findComment&comment=1930950

 

Also the reverse is true. Enemy with said ability can also potentially stunlock your originator of aura effects (saves non-withstanding).

Edited November 10, 2017 by mosspit

[Boeroer]

Braven, where have you been?

 

This was all over the subforum some weeks ago with vids and everything, hehe.

 

Yes, it's especially powerful against Drakes, Dragons, Banshees and the like. Also against barbs with Threatening Presence. So keep your barb out of aura range when meeting ciphers in the Skaen Temple for example. They will stunlock you. As far as I know they don't have Brutal Backlash though.

 

Also makes a nice combo with Wild Orlan.

 

The in-game description still says 1/encounter!

[Braven]

Braven, where have you been?

 

This was all over the subforum some weeks ago with vids and everything, hehe.

 

Yes, it's especially powerful against Drakes, Dragons, Banshees and the like. Also against barbs with Threatening Presence. So keep your barb out of aura range when meeting ciphers in the Skaen Temple for example. They will stunlock you. As far as I know they don't have Brutal Backlash though.

 

Also makes a nice combo with Wild Orlan.

 

The in-game description still says 1/encounter!

Don’t want to do the “hit yourself with pychovampiric shield trick with those talents, though”. That is the main reason I have used wild orlan with cipher; to self trigger defiant resolve.

 

I missed that thread and never took the talent since it seemed useless.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Yes, it used to be baloney - now it's quite nice. Still quite situational though.  

[BlackHat]

Lol'd at psychic backlash.   Had no idea how crazy that ability could be. 

Just to update you; went with a  18 mig/int human meadowfolk cipher, 15 per with middling everything else.  Thus far I've got:

Sura's supper plate

garodh's Helm

Ring of Protection

Talisman of the Unconquerable

Shod-in-Faith

Looped Rope

Celebrant's Gloves (still trying to find something else, but this works for now)

Ring of Searing Flames

Sanguine Plate

Bittercut

 

So I was wondering if might (or any stat really) affects retaliation damage effects - I've got decent might but even after adding +3(helm) i notice little if any difference in retaliation damage(when I do proc frenzy, the same goes, hardly notice a difference).  Went straight for white march area as soon as I could, and while I like bittercut I was considering swapping into Steadfast sos I can keep my high will, and occasionally proc that Champion's Boon +10 might/perception, and then using dual sabres as my off pair to mop up teh weakling survivors of my initial combustingwounds/aoes of doom.  Love watching what happens when I drop body attunement on the enemy and they melt from cumbusting wounds.

 

Has anyone come up with a use for that sword anyway?  It seems like - if not garbage - then a lacking primary, and I always end up throwing it on durance as a secondary weapon that never gets used.  Now that I'm soloing, that potential buff makes me drool a little, especially if it does increase retaliation effects like brutal backlash and the like.

 

p.s. I know some of the items are suboptimal given my other choices, but I like the way it looks.  Red Bull gives you wings.

 

p.p.s I am planning on swapping out of sanguine plate as soon as I get time parasite, just wondering if anyone has suggestions for armor (and for that matter whatever other suggestions you might share) on this guy.  I have aru brekr, but other than the 1 speed it's unremarkable.  Was considering murdering Raedric a second time for his armor (defiant is looking more and more appealing as I've come very close to death on multiple occasions - and a few times, well past that point) but unfortunately its not red, and thus I'll have to lose the loving moniker of Red Bull.  I can live without it tho lol

Edited November 11, 2017 by BlackHat

[Boeroer]

Retaliation damage profits from Vulnerable Attacks and also Ryona's Vambraces (also Devil of Caroc in the Blood Pool, but you are solo, so...). DR bypass is better than stacking MIG in this case because the base damage of retaliation is so low (except Battle Forged of course, this scales and reaches very high damage numbers at higher levels).

 

I'm also surprised you didn't max CON, don't you have issues with low health?

 

If you take Vulnerable Attack + Ryona's (which I recommend with any kind of damaging retaliation) you might think about another (light & fast) weapon like Unforgiven or Sword of Daenysis. Those do more dps than Bittercut with decent dmg mods (such as Soul Whip+Biting Whip) and Vulnerable Attack+Ryona's because of the superior speed. This means more focus. Unforgiven also has an additional 10% burning lash which will give you additional focus. It's very good to use Body Attunement as well so that the lashes all go through and give you focus.

 

What also works ok-ish solo is to start the fight with the Golden Gaze and hope for a quick proc of Expose Vulnerabilities. The focus gain with it against low DR foes is very good. It's in the same group as rapiers (Sword of Daenysis) by the way. But the proc is not very reliable. The chance is nealry 10% per attack (9,8% because of the two projectiles each having a 5% chance to proc). Since ciphers have nothing like Driving Flight or so it takes a bit to get the rod to proc.

 

Another smarty move to get more focus is to enchant your melee weapon with a shocking lash (again Sword of Daenysis maybe?) and first use Stormcaller to lower an enemy's shock DR. This stacks with Body Attunement so you can make sure that most of the lash damage gets through.

[BlackHat]

Yeah, Con is a pretty serious issue.  I've spent an inordinate amount on potions, and I've had to dance around a lot of fights because I'm afeared of one/two-shots.  I underestimated how much damage I was going to take on my own (GM seemed pretty monster-like on my last playthrough, but now I see that was mostly because dead things don't hit back, and a party makes things dead a lot faster).  I've yet to take on the alpine dragon because of the short health concerns however, and I nearly coudln't get past that wm 1 boss fight (took me about 8 tries, and 3 charges of the chimes).  There's only so much figurines can help to draw aggro - they melt pretty fast.  Mostly I rely heavy on the damage output combo and domination, but since that doesn't always work, I'm starting to think this playthrough is coming to a close.  I have a modified 12 con, and its just not enough to avoid peril from an unexpected crit or to survive a lengthy cc. 

 

Well, it's still fun anyway, I'm kinda a glutton for punishment.  I die, and with obsessive furor, I think "Ok, what if I use ironskin at the outset...do I still have that stupid spiderling figurine?" (or whatever other mad scheme pops into my head the next minute).  But I can't deny that I think from all the pain i'm getting I'd have gotten a lot more mileage out of a monk like you first suggested.  I also would be able to slap on Ryona's BP, which has some interesting capacities for monks, as while less reliable than valor scrolls/defense it's a free chance every time I get hit (which is a lot).

 

As a first time POTD solo run I've still learned a lot - namely that Dominate feels OP until they're immune, lol - but that cipher has some pretty severe limitations on solo:  I keep wishing that I could use pain block on myself.

 

SO, I'm gonna try out stormcaller, as my current ranged option (leadspitter) is purely a one-shot wonder.  I think I'll be able to survive, but I think the retaliation cipher build is kinda pushing the rock uphill compared to if I'd just started toward a lashier build in the first place.  I spend more time in hit n' runs than standing n' banging (or standing and getting banged while casting, more accurately). 

 

If I do start fresh with this build, gonna reverse might and Con, give or take a couple points.  Focus generation isn't as much a problem as concentration and hps, so I might throw some spares into Res.  Not sure how much of those points should come out of Int tho.  BTW I do use vuln. attacks, but with the heavier armor I'm really feeling like I'm wading in mud most of the time - but again, with the low health pool, I can't really go much lighter on the armor.  Circling back to the same issues...

 

Then again, I'm dying to try a monksterlash solo run so who knows.  The expirement's half the fun so if I can't beat the bounties I'm on come tomorrow, then I'll start experiment B.

 

Thanks for all the input, guys, Boeroer.  Always learning something new here

Oh and p.s, knew I shoulda gone Fire godlike >.< but I f*ing hate the portraits hahaha

Edited November 11, 2017 by BlackHat

[Boeroer]

I got me a nasty one from Deviantart.com + Photoshop (well, Gimp in this case...): 

 

Monksterlash (with Battle Forged!) is very powerful in my opinion. I didn't use the Supper Plate though because dual wieldung (or wielding a bashing shield like the Barricade) is so much better with Torment's Reach (Barricade procs ToTV also with the AoE of Torment's Reach). By the way: lashes work with draining which might be very handy in a solo game. Turning Wheel + Torment's Reach + Linghtning Strikes + Blood Testament + Purgatory means a ton of endurance draining. Braven found that out.
 

[BlackHat]

Yeah, that last bit sounds juicy. 

I just did 23 attempts on the alpine dragon, and while I think it mught be possible, *maybe* I have to stop myself now, or I will lose what tiny fragments of my minds are left, lol.

SO !  Monksterlash, here I come.

 

Until I can get at purgatory, I may need to grab up oidrecht/azureth's instead i think.  Thank you for feeding my mania   Purgatory is from that archdruid - but why do I keep thinking there's another in the game?  I think I'm just trippin...

Edited November 11, 2017 by BlackHat