Discourse on Math

[Elerond]

I'm pretty sure that "math" is more Ancient than "algorithm"

 

Hard to say. Mathematics is study of such topics as quantity (numbers), structure, space and change. Algorithms, as I already said in my previous post, means a set of rules for solving a problem in a finite number of steps.  Because question which is older comes to how we define when one has come to exists from instinctual behavior of an organism. 

[Zenbane]

Im pretty sure Math existed before organisms, planets, the solar system, etc.

[Elerond]

Im pretty sure Math existed before organisms, planets, the solar system, etc.

 

Interesting who or what you think studied topics like quantity (numbers), structure, space and/or change at that point of time?

[Zenbane]

Right so according to some of you:

 

1) The world really was flat until we discovered it was round

2) The sun really revolved around the Earth until we discovered otherwise

 

I tend to disagree. I believe that the earth was always round and that it always revolved around the sun. Discovering something doens't bring it in to existence; it must exist prior to the discovery. An example of Math that existed before life on Earth: Gravity

 

Clearly some of you prefer to be more philosophical on the matter. Not so much chicken/egg, but more "if a tree falls and no one hears it" ... lol

 

Fun readings:

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/04/is-mathematics.html

http://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2010/04/01/is-mathematics-invented-or-discovered/

Edited November 7, 2015 by Zenbane

[Elerond]

Actually, that's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the human activity of studying math is one thing. I'm an ol' skool Platonist, even so far as to do some translations of his works. I believe the things enumerated and manipulated exist outside of humanity. That's for certain. However, the process of manipulating them in the way that humanity manipulates with the intent to explain and understand is uniquely human. That is to say two things plus two things equals four things, but the abstract language that transforms the reality into ideas which we can then manipulate is manufactured. For all we know, there's some other method of communicating these ideas, but as far as we know, we haven't met the species that uses such methods. We simply have our own.

 

...But, as fun as I find the discussion, and as much as I appreciate the articles, I'm too lazy to further the debate, so I will concede the point and move on.

 

However, speaking of communicating abstract ideas, we have to wonder where, when, and if the nerfbat will use the precision of math to batter some talent or make some monster immune. Of all the things I've heard recently, I'm only worried about excessive immunities. Of course, folks often inflate the issue, so maybe the immunities won't be that big of a deal when I start my next game. Hopefully, that's soon. For my part, I think Sawyer has some real displays of brilliance, but I've long thought, like many others, that he's a tad bit too invested in balance. ...But the game's fun, so who cares?

 

Even though this goes again off topic I had to say that mathematics don't exist, it isn't abstract it isn't a phenomenon in universe, but study of things that exists, that are abstract and phenomenons in universe. It seeks ways to model, quantity, count, describe, etc. those said things. What we call math or mathematics is human collected knowledge of all humans about things that has been studied in field of mathematics and continuous study of things. Mathematics is same as philosophy (study of the general and fundamental nature of reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language), physics (study of matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force), history (study of the past, particularly how it relates to humans), geology (study of solid Earth, the rocks of which it is composed, and the processes by which they change), etc. studies that study universe, its phenomenons, behaviors, etc. and seek ways to model, abstract, quantity, predict, etc. those things. In other words they are names for sciences that study things that exists, have existed, will exists and try to explain, quantify, predict, model etc. those things. 

 

And what comes to subject are axioms, models, constants that are used in field of mathematics invented or found don't change mathematics from field of science to natural/social/abstract phenomenon. Meaning that if we don't necessary want change meaning of words mathematics or names of other sciences they are just terms that describe certain study in certain field. And if we keep original meaning of those words then we most likely come in conclusion that if there exist study of something then there probably need to be someone that studies that something. But if we widen meaning of names of sciences such that they started to exists when things that they study started to exist then we can come back to original quarrel that started this off topic and say that algorithms have then existed from beginning of universe (and probably earlier) as we can use algorithms to model most of the phenomenons that happen in universe so we can come to conclusion that those phenomenons work according to some algorithm. So words are words they don't really mean anything but we use them to describe certain things and then we can use same words to mean some other absolute different thing if we just want to confuse each others so that we can use those same words instead of needing to find new words to describe that different thing. So please try to be specific what is the thing that you mean so that people that have different opinion what certain words means can know what you are talking about if it is important to you that those people know what you are talking about.   

[Elerond]

Elorond doesn't think Math exists because he's an Elf that relies on magic. Nothing much left to say about that.

 

I think you need some magic to actually understand what math is, but everybody is free to defined words as they want, but don't be surprised if other people don't know what you mean. 

[Zenbane]

 

Elorond doesn't think Math exists because he's an Elf that relies on magic. Nothing much left to say about that.

 

I think you need some magic to actually understand what math is, but everybody is free to defined words as they want, but don't be surprised if other people don't know what you mean. 

 

 

I provided 2 links to articles that fully discuss what you claim to be "magic"

 

I respectfully disagree with your point of view on Math. You won't change my mind but I'm also trying to get back on topic. Agree to disagree?

[Elerond]

 

 

Elorond doesn't think Math exists because he's an Elf that relies on magic. Nothing much left to say about that.

 

I think you need some magic to actually understand what math is, but everybody is free to defined words as they want, but don't be surprised if other people don't know what you mean. 

 

 

I provided 2 links to articles that fully discuss what you claim to be "magic"

 

I respectfully disagree with your point of view on Math. You won't change my mind but I'm also trying to get back on topic. Agree to disagree?

 

 

Definition of mathematics is the study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols. Links that you provided didn't change that they spoke more how things study in mathematics aren't necessary inventions of humans but things that have always existed in universe, but that don't change definition of mathematics. Like for example meaning of geology didn't change when people realized that world isn't actually flat, but sphere.  

 

As I have said you can define math in anyway you want, but I will probably will continue to correct if people try to claim that I have something else than what I have said.

[Zenbane]

You aren't correcting anything, you are just stating your opinion over and over, and I do not agree with your opinion. You can type up as much as you like, but I agree with the line of reasoning in the articles I posted, not your opinion.

[Elerond]

You aren't correcting anything, you are just stating your opinion over and over, and I do not agree with your opinion. You can type up as much as you like, but I agree with the line of reasoning in the articles I posted, not your opinion.

 

It isn't opinion it is my definition for math and definition (definitions aren't opinions but information how one means with words that they use) that is generally accepted for it (meaning that it is definition that most dictionaries give for that word). You can see that I have stated my definitions for math several times during this discussion. And formed my post using that definition. You haven't yet defined what you mean with word math (short from mathematics? or something else), so I assumed first that you don't oppose my definition, but that don't seem to be the case, so it is quite hard to speak to you about this subject as we don't seem to have common words that we could use as we both seem to use now same words to mean different things. But as long as you don't define what you mean by math I can't accept your statement that I think that Math don't exist because I am Elf (name or nationality? I don't know)  that relies on magic.

[Zenbane]

Yes I realize that the reason you can't stop yourself from replying about Math is because you firmly believe your opinion is a concrete fact, but nope, I see your opinion as only your opinion.

 

A quote from one of the articles I posted:

 

So is mathematics invented by humans, like chisels and hammers, cars and computers, music and art? Or is mathematics discovered, always out there, somewhere, like mysterious islands waiting to be found? The question probes the deepest secrets of existence.

 

It should be clear by now which stance I take. I know you won't be able to stop replying about your opinion, and I guarantee you that I will continue to disagree with what you're saying.

[Zenbane]

The Moderator split this topic over here since it was derailing a good PoE discussion. I dont plan to check this thread since I disagree wholeheartedly with Elerond's opinion (refer to the articles I posted). Anyone is free to debate my ideas (insult them, etc); I'm gonna get back to talking about video games now

[Elerond]

The Moderator split this topic over here since it was derailing a good PoE discussion. I dont plan to check this thread since I disagree wholeheartedly with Elerond's opinion (refer to the articles I posted). Anyone is free to debate my ideas (insult them, etc); I'm gonna get back to talking about video games now

 

But we didn't even got to opinions phase of debate as we didn't even find out how you define word math 

[Amentep]

 

I'm pretty sure that "math" is more Ancient than "algorithm"

 

Hard to say. Mathematics is study of such topics as quantity (numbers), structure, space and change. Algorithms, as I already said in my previous post, means a set of rules for solving a problem in a finite number of steps.  Because question which is older comes to how we define when one has come to exists from instinctual behavior of an organism.

 

 

Most of the early known work in math was actually built within philosophical thought.  Cosmologies trying to understand how the universe worked and why it worked that way could be considered a proto-algorithm as they try to solve the nature of reality with a series of finite logical statements (for example, Plato's Timaeus dialogue).

 

I'm not sure why the age of either matters though, not being privy to original discussion.

 

Discovering something doens't bring it in to existence; it must exist prior to the discovery. An example of Math that existed before life on Earth: Gravity

 

Seems a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" argument. If we define math as a study of topics (including quantities, structure, space and change) the objects being studied have to exist prior to the ability to study them.

 

So if we argue that Liebniz and Newton "developed" Calculus in the 1600s, we're not actually arguing that the area under a curve or relations between rates of change didn't exist prior to it, but that they gave us abilities to express those concepts that already existed within a mathematical context.  Within this, however, we can argue that caluclus is "younger" than, say Number Theory (c. 1800 BCE) based on known developments within those concepts/disciplines.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Amentep