Pillars of Eternity going "simulationist" with a Keyword System?

[Infinitron]

With the introduction of Affliction Immunities and resulting worries about game balance, I decided to ask Josh Sawyer whether the game couldn't use more fine-grained distinctions: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/132635241171/idea-split-the-prone-status-effect-into-two

 

 

Interesting, but it seems he didn't quite get what I was aiming at, so I clarified: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/132730091931/the-difference-between-something-like-slicken-and

 

 

Keyword system? What the heck is that? Have we just learned about an upcoming new feature? 

[Elerond]

Keyword system is already existing system, which they haven't used that much (repeating what Josh said)

 

It seem to be flagging system where you can give keyword flag for things and then you can use that flag to for example to give immunities for other things for that first thing.

 

So for example slicken could have keyword "Ground Attack" (again repeating Josh) and then some monster could have immunity to every attack that has keyword "Ground Attack"  attached to them.

 

They have already used this system with for example poison (again repeating Josh) and by giving poison immunities to monsters and npc (DoC for example).

[Infinitron]

That was something of a rhetorical question.

[Elerond]

That was something of a rhetorical question.

Then my answer was something of a rhetorical answer 

[AndreaColombo]

The "Ground Attacks" thing is cool, imho. It's always struck me as odd that flying creatures who were not touching the ground at all could be knocked Prone via Slicken (for example.)

[Zenbane]

Interesting, but it seems he didn't quite get what I was aiming at

Keyword system? What the heck is that? Have we just learned about an upcoming new feature?

That was something of a rhetorical question.

 

Is it me... or is this thread less about PoE as a simulationist and more about Infinitron boasting that he had a chat session?

[Infinitron]

 

Is it me... or is this thread less about PoE as a simulationist and more about Infinitron boasting that he had a chat session?

 

 

Nah, I do that all the time.

 

I just think it's funny that he mentioned "Keywords" out of the blue. Not communicated "well"? More like not at all.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Infinitron

[Zenbane]

If that's the case, then why did you say that your question is rhetorical?

 

This is what you claimed is rhetorical, "Keyword system? What the heck is that? Have we just learned about an upcoming new feature?" Elerond pointed out that this Keyword system already existed, and you replied to him saying you were being rhetorical. If you were being rhetorical then you must be saying that you knew it was NOT a new feature. But now you're saying that he mentioned "Keywords" out of the blue.

 

"out of the blue" <> "I knew it already existed"

 

This is why I assume the point of this thread is for you to boast about the fact that you had a chat session. Since you really aren't being very consistent with the information you are trying to present. In fact, I have no idea what the point of this thread is. 

[Infinitron]

This is what you claimed is rhetorical, "Keyword system? What the heck is that? Have we just learned about an upcoming new feature?" Elerond pointed out that this Keyword system already existed, and you replied to him saying you were being rhetorical. If you were being rhetorical then you must be saying that you knew it was NOT a new feature. But now you're saying that he mentioned "Keywords" out of the blue.

 

 

Uh yes, Josh mentioned the Keyword system out of the blue, and also mentioned that it already existed, which we didn't know until just now.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Infinitron

[Zenbane]

Umm, just about every RPG ever made has a keyword system. How do you think things like Immunity and Resistance work? Damage types like Missile, Physical, and Elemental? This system has been in place for RPG's since the 80's; hardly out of the blue.

[Infinitron]

I'm not familiar with that usage of the term "keyword". I did do a search for it on the forums before posting this, and all I found was references to the clickable hyperlinks in the game's in-game encyclopedia, and other unrelated contexts.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Infinitron

[Zenbane]

Take a look at some Modding Tutorials for pretty much any RPG. They don't necessarily say, "Keyword System" and may refer to these types of things as Tags, Properties, Labels. But it's all the same thing: "a user-friendly piece of text that applies characteristics to an object or behavior."

 

Check out Skyrim's example of making an Amulet a "Quest" Item (where "Quest" is the Keyword):

http://www.creationkit.com/File:AutofilledProperty.png

 

A better example is the Editor that literally applies Keywords to the creation of an Item:

http://www.creationkit.com/File:ElderCouncilAmulet.png

 

For this Amulet, the following Keywords were assigned:

ArmorJewelry
VendorItemJewelry
JewelryExpensive

 

 

Another example is Legend of Grimrock 2, which is full of Keywords to control Damage Types and Resistances:

Get damage type of the attack: “physical” (default), “cold”, “fire”, “poison” or “shock”

 

http://www.grimrock.net/modding/scripting-reference/#RangedAttackComponent

 

Those are all Keywords that a Modder must type in code when creating Custom Ranged Attacks (in this example)

[Elerond]

I'm not familiar with that usage of the term "keyword". I did do a search for it on the forums before posting this, and all I found was references to the clickable hyperlinks in the game's in-game encyclopedia, and other unrelated contexts.

 

I think that in case of PoE Josh and others have mostly referred them as flags. But you need to have some sort flagging/keyword system in place if want to have effects/checks/etc. that have conditions on them depending on some specific status in the game. I would guess that they haven't really talked about such system because it's behind the hood mechanic that as itself shouldn't matter for player, but only effects that it has.

 

But I think that "Not communicated well to player" means that game does poor job to indicate what things are effected by keywords system. Like for example there is no straightforward way to tell for sure if something does poison damage or not, but to read trough its description to find out that such is the case. Which makes it harder to know what things don't work against one with poison immunity or such.

[Infinitron]

 

I'm not familiar with that usage of the term "keyword". I did do a search for it on the forums before posting this, and all I found was references to the clickable hyperlinks in the game's in-game encyclopedia, and other unrelated contexts.

 

I think that in case of PoE Josh and others have mostly referred them as flags. But you need to have some sort flagging/keyword system in place if want to have effects/checks/etc. that have conditions on them depending on some specific status in the game. I would guess that they haven't really talked about such system because it's behind the hood mechanic that as itself shouldn't matter for player, but only effects that it has.

 

But I think that "Not communicated well to player" means that game does poor job to indicate what things are effected by keywords system. Like for example there is no straightforward way to tell for sure if something does poison damage or not, but to read trough its description to find out that such is the case. Which makes it harder to know what things don't work against one with poison immunity or such.

 

 

But he also said they "haven't use keywords that much". That led me to believe they were something separate from the labels we see in the descriptions of items and abilities, which are obviously quite common and seem pretty well communicated to me.

 

In any case, the fact the brings it up now in this context means the game may be about to see an expansion of immunities and resistances based on these specific "keywords". Or if not this game, then the sequel.

[Zenbane]

 

I'm not familiar with that usage of the term "keyword". I did do a search for it on the forums before posting this, and all I found was references to the clickable hyperlinks in the game's in-game encyclopedia, and other unrelated contexts.

 

I think that in case of PoE Josh and others have mostly referred them as flags. But you need to have some sort flagging/keyword system in place if want to have effects/checks/etc. that have conditions on them depending on some specific status in the game. I would guess that they haven't really talked about such system because it's behind the hood mechanic that as itself shouldn't matter for player, but only effects that it has.

 

But I think that "Not communicated well to player" means that game does poor job to indicate what things are effected by keywords system. Like for example there is no straightforward way to tell for sure if something does poison damage or not, but to read trough its description to find out that such is the case. Which makes it harder to know what things don't work against one with poison immunity or such.

 

Agreed, although this is extremely common. Typically the only time "full disclosure" of the inner workings of a game (including Keywords/Flags) is when a Modding Kit is made available.

[Sannom]

ut he also said they "haven't use keywords that much". That led me to believe they were something separate from the labels we see in the descriptions of items and abilities, which are obviously quite common and seem pretty well communicated to me.

 

In any case, the fact the brings it up now in this context means the game may be about to see an expansion of immunities and resistances based on these specific "keywords". Or if not this game, then the sequel.

 

I believe you got it right. For example, I'm pretty sure that "Poison" is supposed to be a keyword for an attack, different than the "Raw" that qualifies the damage of that attack, but good luck knowing which ability counts as a "Poison" ability based on the description!

 

For example, there are some monsters immune to poison and Envenomed Strike doesn't work on them (obviously). But the "poison" qualifier doesn't appear anywhere on the description of the ability.

 

Another qualifier I think they could use is a size descriptor. So for example dragons could be subjected to a Prone effect, but it would have to come from a magic source or something equally powerful, not from a fighter's bashing it with its weapons!

Edited November 9, 2015 by Sannom