The Priest Problem

[dam]

The funny thing is that the solution seems obvious : chanters with a little rework could fit the role of alternative to priests.

 

Not as equals, it is not the point, but well enough to make priest not a mandatory choice.

Chanters have other advantages : they have great summons and they are also very good tanks.

 

With a little help from paladins and druids (moonwell, nature's bounty...), they would perfectly fit the role.

 

Chanters and priests are also versatile enough to avoid overlap if you take both of them.

 

So basically, it is just another argument to rework chanter IMHO.

 

Priest class itself doesn't really need a rework. It is more a problem of class role distribution.

 

While I agree that Chanters need some attention (as a matter of fact I've posted 2 threads recently relating to mechanics which, I believe, should be looked at), you're very much mistaken here.

 

Why would you want Chanters to "fill an alternate role to priests" ?

They're already filling a different role, unless you can offer me a priest build which can offtank while providing healing and buffs/debuffs for an unlimited period of time.

 

Your reasoning is based on the (factually incorrect) assumption that "priests are mandatory".

They're not, and many other POTDers beside me have already attested to just that.

 

No offense.

[Elric Galad]

Nothing has ever been mandatory for PotD.

 

One can finish PotD with 1 single character.

 

I'm tired to repeat the same thing on every thread about class balance.

 

"Fighters are fine because I manage to play one in PotD"...

 

The real point is about "playing without a priest without feeling gimped".

 

You're right about tank being at least as much important. But as you say yourself you have THREE class choices (plus monks and maybe even wizards) which can make a tank.

 

You're saying I'm wrong because chanters can also be tanks, but I've said exactly the same thing in the very post you're quoting !

 

Maybe this is a matter of vocabulary but buffer is a generic party roles, meanwhile infinite duration buff or time limited stacking buffs are just two different ways of filling the same role IMHO. I do not deny that chanters and priest are indeed different.

 

But for buffs, no other class can be nearly as good as priest. That's the point.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Elric Galad

[avari3]

Priest is undoubtedly a great class but I think it's balanced in POE because unlike D&D clerics they do literally no damage and play more like speed bumps than off tanks.  You can run without one, Pally and Druid can divy up the healing, Chanter can go full buff bot if you play him that way. 

 

But yes, I kinda agree, it kinda does take 3 classes to replace him.  Every other class has a direct substitute.  But that's a problem there has always been.  I'm just used to playing the Pally/Druid/Bard party because I've never liked having Clerics and Wizards forced down my throat.

Edited September 22, 2015 by avari3

[Elric Galad]

Priest is undoubtedly a great class but I think it's balanced in POE because unlike D&D clerics they do literally no damage and play more like speed bumps than off tanks.  You can run without one, Pally and Druid can divy up the healing, Chanter can go full buff bot if you play him that way. 

 

But yes, I kinda agree, it kinda does take 3 classes to replace him.  Every other class has a direct substitute.  But that's a problem there has always been.  I'm just used to playing the Pally/Druid/Bard party because I've never liked having Clerics and Wizards forced down my throat.

 

I understand your point. I like Wizards but I wanted to avoid them in my current party. So I took Druid and Cipher for CC, and for now it works. (Well, I would be perfect when the storm bug will be corrected. ^^)

 

But currently, I doubt chanters can replace Priest, even with druid and paladin.

 

Part of the problem is you can't really go "full Buff bot" for chanter ; indeed, you can't customize so much a chanter.

 

By the way, even if chanters had around 50% buff capabilities of Priest, it would be ok.

You could indeed rely on druids, paladins and paladin multiclass talent to fill most of the gap, and your party would have other abilities to compensate anyway (especially chanters and pally tankyness).

 

Now I would estimate chanters around 25-30% of priest buff capabilities.

The gap is still huge is you consider for example priests can get up to +65 party deflection, while chanters cap at +10 with a 3rd level chant.

[avari3]

 

Priest is undoubtedly a great class but I think it's balanced in POE because unlike D&D clerics they do literally no damage and play more like speed bumps than off tanks.  You can run without one, Pally and Druid can divy up the healing, Chanter can go full buff bot if you play him that way. 

 

But yes, I kinda agree, it kinda does take 3 classes to replace him.  Every other class has a direct substitute.  But that's a problem there has always been.  I'm just used to playing the Pally/Druid/Bard party because I've never liked having Clerics and Wizards forced down my throat.

 

I understand your point. I like Wizards but I wanted to avoid them in my current party. So I took Druid and Cipher for CC, and for now it works. (Well, I would be perfect when the storm bug will be corrected. ^^)

 

But currently, I doubt chanters can replace Priest, even with druid and paladin.

 

Part of the problem is you can't really go "full Buff bot" for chanter ; indeed, you can't customize so much a chanter.

 

By the way, even if chanters had around 50% buff capabilities of Priest, it would be ok.

You could indeed rely on druids, paladins and paladin multiclass talent to fill most of the gap, and your party would have other abilities to compensate anyway (especially chanters and pally tankyness).

 

Now I would estimate chanters around 25-30% of priest buff capabilities.

The gap is still huge is you consider for example priests can get up to +65 party deflection, while chanters cap at +10 with a 3rd level chant.

 

 

The Chanter gets it done by debuffing the enemy, which ends up being the same as buffing yourself.  He doesn't heal but he's the best off tank in the game.  I adore the Chanter, truly in love with the class as it replaces the traditional cleric role in a  completely new way.  The Chanter really is the alternative to Priest since you probably don't want both of them in same party unless you looking for a very funky party mix (pure defensive or no-tank).

[Wolken3156]

Priest is undoubtedly a great class but I think it's balanced in POE because unlike D&D clerics they do literally no damage

I disagree with that! Priests can deal some impressive damage actually!

 

For early game, a Skaen Priest is Rogue lite-edition. You have a minor sneak attack talent which also stacks with the multiclass talent, along with an accuracy bonus to Stilettos. What you have over a Rogue though is the ability to inflict Daze in every encounter and powerful support magic. It really solid, though yes, not as good as an actual melee damage dealer.

 

Mid to endgame, the Priest will look to their spells for raw power. For starters, Minor Avatar is an incredible self-buff for the Priest. It will transform them into a deity among the casting classes, with massive bonuses to all attributes. Combine this with their damage over time spells (Storm of Holy Fire and Shining Beacon) and they capable of dealing a colossal amount of damage. Spark the Souls of the Righteous is especially notable. If you're running a melee heavy party, this spell rips through enemies like nothing else.

 

Also Iconic Projection is one of the best spells you could have as a per encounter. It deals a solid amount of damage, has good range and also provides healing for all allies caught in the area of effect.

 

 

Of course, ultimately the Priest should be buffing the rest of the party before unleash divine righteousness upon their enemies. But, I would never underestimate their offensive potential. After all, the deadliest enemies in the game are in fact Priests!

Edited September 22, 2015 by Wolken3156

[Ymarsakar]

Due to the accuracy on repulsing seal and the sun seal, their damage potential is quite high actually, aoe wise.

 

Cause the sun hazard will usually crit and it's foe hazard only, your party doesn't suffer it, so you can blanket most of the enemies at once.

 

As Wolken mentioned, some of the self buffs can be pretty good as well, although not equal to the wizard.

 

I think they wanted to get away from those fighter/cleric super builds people used in BG2. So the priest got dd/aoe/cc spells but the self buffs were more limited. But having a few points of might combined with his spells is pretty good for damage potential.

[Boeroer]

I think that Iconic Projection (combined with high might and maybe a spell damage multiplier item and/or healing bonus item) is one of the best spells in the game when you can cast it per encounter. It's also superfast - you can spam it like crazy. If you want to use it more than 4 times per encounter - which I recommend - then you can take the lvl-2-bonus-spell talent and put on a ring that gives an additional spell per rest/encounter. I'm thinking about retraining my priest like that. Take away the weapon focus and the inspired flame talent and take bonus spell and Secrets of Rime for +20% freeze damage - since my priest is not using his arquebus any more - too busy casting Iconic Projection. In White March it's not so good though - too many freeze-immune enemies.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Boeroer

[bonarbill]

 

The funny thing is that the solution seems obvious : chanters with a little rework could fit the role of alternative to priests.

 

Not as equals, it is not the point, but well enough to make priest not a mandatory choice.

Chanters have other advantages : they have great summons and they are also very good tanks.

 

With a little help from paladins and druids (moonwell, nature's bounty...), they would perfectly fit the role.

 

Chanters and priests are also versatile enough to avoid overlap if you take both of them.

 

So basically, it is just another argument to rework chanter IMHO.

 

Priest class itself doesn't really need a rework. It is more a problem of class role distribution.

 

 

Why would you want Chanters to "fill an alternate role to priests" ?

They're already filling a different role, unless you can offer me a priest build which can offtank while providing healing and buffs/debuffs for an unlimited period of time.

 

 

Thanks to the per encounter spells, my priest in PoTD can do all of that at level 13-14.  

Edited September 23, 2015 by bonarbill

[Ymarsakar]

I think that Iconic Projection (combined with high might and maybe a spell damage multiplier item and/or healing bonus item) is one of the best spells in the game when you can cast it per encounter. It's also superfast - you can spam it like crazy. If you want to use it more than 4 times per encounter - which I recommend - then you can take the lvl-2-bonus-spell talent and put on a ring that gives an additional spell per rest/encounter. I'm thinking about retraining my priest like that. Take away the weapon focus and the inspired flame talent and take bonus spell and Secrets of Rime for +20% freeze damage - since my priest is not using his arquebus any more - too busy casting Iconic Projection. In White March it's not so good though - too many freeze-immune enemies.

 

Prone them with the seal and then hit them with another 1-2 level spell. Priest has some good fire spells but they aren't as easy to use as iconic.

 

For single target dps, the halt + divine mark is pretty good once level 2 becomes per encounter at least. Before, I would normally save the priest spells for emergencies in fights that end with tank needing some saves.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[Wolken3156]

In White March it's not so good though - too many freeze-immune enemies.

That's what the Arquebus is for ^o^

 

I personally like to stick a Shield and Hatchet on my Priest though. Most of their better spells require them to be reasonably close to enemies. The Deflection can help out if some enemies do pay notice to them.

 

As for ice immunes, if you only had to use per encounter spells, I think its better to buff with Blessing and Dire Blessing and debuff with Despondent Blows rather than attempt to attack. Warding Seal and Repulsing Seal as mentioned is also an option. Most battles in White March though are large-scale enough to justify the use of high level spells though, at least in my experience. Generally I just use Minor Avatar anyway and then blast them with Shining Beacon or Pillar of Holy Fire or well... anything fire related.

[klinwen]

Didn't set out to build a priestless party as such, but I seem to be doing just fine without Durance. I'm doing double tank paladins: my main is one and Pallegine the other. The double auras are just super, and they're there right from the start.

 

Kana is the third frontliner. Just starting White March so experimenting with replacing Kana with Zahua.

 

Everyone wears the biggest DR armor I can find and mostly sword and shield, but my main has Forgemaster's Fingers for when you need to burn stuff to the ground.

 

Aloth stands behind them, whacking with Concelhaut's staff and Chitzal's lance.

 

The back line varies. Sagani, Grieving Mother and Hiravias all get their turn. Eder's boring himself witless at the keep.

 

With this setup I'm really running out of health sooner than endurance...

[MadDemiurg]

I think priests are fine, even though they are the most versatile class capable of performing most roles pretty well (apart from tanking probably). I think access to affliction counters should be somewhat less priest exclusive though. Chanters do have some anti affliction chants, I think they should they should get more, covering a wider array of afflictions. Maybe another class (druids?) can get some form of reactive affliction defense with restoration style spells that remove existing afflictions from the target.

[Ymarsakar]

The druid aoe heals are rather hard to use. They seem to need to be cast before you take damage, as in before your main tanks move away from your formation.

 

By tank I mean anybody with high deflection and high DR plate that is.

 

But one or two paladins fills in the priest slot quite well in my experience at level 8-10.

 

The game is far less micro if I use only one caster and 1-2 ciphers. The cipher's aoe cc makes managing larger fights easier and can prevent incoming damage just long enough for the paladin to do his work. Two cipher's chain casting recall agony, mental paralysis, and various other stuff, makes for an interesting offensive tactic every time with 3 arquebus alphas.

 

Shod in faith is a pretty important item for solo, small parties, or parties that need reliable healing. It is now 2 per encounter, like lay on hands. But well, you can just shoot the guy with entangle and set it off before a fight, but that's rather cheesy and I don't use it intentionally.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Ymarsakar