Tanking Paladin, Fighter, Patch 2.0 and Constitution.

[Torm51]

How much is too much?  I am specifically talking about Fighter and Paladin.  With the deflection nerf (ouch Defender got it hard) getting def into the high 160s and 170s will be difficult or maybe impossible with certain set ups.  Also Con has been buffed to 5% per point.  I figure since we will be getting hit more tanks will need more Stam and Health.  Am I wrong?  Am I being ridiculous by going for an 18 Con on a Paladin? (non solo).  Those big beefy bosses will definitely hit us much harder.  They will also be immune to some CCs correct? So they will have MORE up time on tanks...Dragons are scaring the crap out of me lol...as they should!  I like it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Torm51

[Raven Darkholme]

As long as you don't solo 8-9 deflection don't mean that much.

Solos will be harder but still doable.

Going for high Con is smart, whether you need 18 idk, 12-15 sounds fine.

[Torm51]

As long as you don't solo 8-9 deflection don't mean that much.

Solos will be harder but still doable.

Going for high Con is smart, whether you need 18 idk, 12-15 sounds fine.

Agree with you just putting 10 points/ minimal points into resolve as a tank seemed weird.  You get good Will Def from it but with Righteous Soul that becomes a bit less important and you can get that from Int instead which will give you better buffs, auras and heals...might be the way to go.  I think you are right though.  If you were referring to the Defender nerf well you lose deflection now :-/ still you are right it is not game breaking.

 

PS Have they changed engagement and made it more important or is it still crappy. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by Torm51

[Raven Darkholme]

Oh, yeah the defender nerf sucks.

Bye defensive fighter.

What you mean 10 Resolve, resolve still gives deflection?

[Torm51]

Well I thought you meant Resolve wasn't worth it anymore if you aren't soloing cause 8-9 Deflection is no big deal. So I was thinking if just leaving resolve at 10 and just take Deflection from shields, talents and faith and Conviction. I mean 10 Def against regular bad guys is no big deal cause they die fast and the big bad guys who matter will now hit you anyway since accuracy is up and you can't get Def high enough to avoid them.

[Boeroer]

I think he meant that the bonus from perception is missing and that's 8 or 9 defl. if you maxed perception in 1.06.

[Raven Darkholme]

Yeah, otherwise its 16-18 def less, which matters a whole lot more.

[Nobear]

I will still be maxing Resolve on tanks and probably all melee characters, especially solo ones, because I love not only the deflection but the concentration. It still works out to be not only a defensive boost but a DPS boost when you're getting hit, and you're more likely to perform actions like use scrolls or potions reliably as well.

 

The way I see it, boosts to your defenses and concentration get more valuable the more you have, up to a certain very high number that most or all classes probably won't be able to attain in 2.0. As the appropriate defense score approaches the point of invulnerability (or, more realistically, the point where you only get grazed, or before that, the point where you no longer get crit), the change in the % chance of receiving the respective type of hit becomes more dramatic with the same defense value added.

 

For example, if you have a 20% chance to be crit vs a given enemy and you add 10 Defense, that will halve your chance to 10%. You only need to add 5 more Defense to halve that chance again to 5%. Add another 5 and you become totally immune to crits against that enemy.

 

Conversely, each additional point in Might, Con, Dex, or any stat that grants an additive advantage that doesn't approach any hard upper limit, is less valuable than the point before it. Your first point in Con, for instance (going from 3 to 4 Con), will take you from 65% of base health/endurance to 70%. .70/.65 = a 7.7% increase. Going from 10 to 11 Con, of course, is a 5% increase. Going from 17 to 18 Con will take you from 135% of base health/endurance to 140%. 1.40/1.35 = a 3.7% increase.

 

What I don't have is math to directly compare the relative values of Con and deflection. But, if they are within the ballpark of well-balanced now, my instincts would be to keep maxing Res, but have at least 10 Con, maybe more if it works out with your overall stat spread.

[Torm51]

So going for 18 con in a group play is less and less valuable.  I am just scared of being hit more often with the Def nerf and not having the HP.

[Nobear]

So going for 18 con in a group play is less and less valuable.  I am just scared of being hit more often with the Def nerf and not having the HP.

 

Well you could certainly max Con then, and maybe keep Per at 10. The only high-damage ability that paladins have (Flames of Devotion) has a built-in +20 accuracy anyway, but as I recall you don't even use that. In that case, it seems you're looking at more of a pure tank again, which is probably your best bet in a full party, what with paladins never doing great damage even if you try to make them some kind of hybrid. You'd have high Fort, that's for sure, which is probably your most important defense as a paladin after Deflection, seeing as you get Reflex from Weapon and Shield Style and your class has its own way to protect against Will attacks.

 

I don't feel like thinking about it much or loading up the game, but see what stats you can come up with if you dump Dex, max Res, and keep Per at 10. Keep in mind the growing aura cheese has been fixed in 2.0. There's a paladin-only necklace from Dyrford Village that increases your aura size by 20%, but I'll probably prefer to keep my Int high enough to use something else for my neck slot if I can. Considering that they also reduced the Int bonus of the Defiance Bay inn from 4 to 2, you may actually need maxed Int to have your auras cover your whole party without the necklace, depending on your formation.

[Torm51]

Yep pretty much its a pure tank haha.  But I took your advice and got over it lets see how it goes.  Trying out the 2.0 Beta.  Maxed Resolve and took 14 Con the rest into Int.  The hybrid seems cool but the way the Paladin plays it just isn't going to happen.  Thanks for the help guys. 

 

PS

 

Nobear I always enjoy our Paladin discussions hah!  and you remembered that I don't like Flames of Devotion on a tank! lmao! 

 

PS PS

 

I never used growing aura cheese!  I always turned my auras off when I logged off and back on when I logged in!

Edited August 20, 2015 by Torm51

[Doppelschwert]

I will still be maxing Resolve on tanks and probably all melee characters, especially solo ones, because I love not only the deflection but the concentration. It still works out to be not only a defensive boost but a DPS boost when you're getting hit, and you're more likely to perform actions like use scrolls or potions reliably as well.

 

The way I see it, boosts to your defenses and concentration get more valuable the more you have, up to a certain very high number that most or all classes probably won't be able to attain in 2.0. As the appropriate defense score approaches the point of invulnerability (or, more realistically, the point where you only get grazed, or before that, the point where you no longer get crit), the change in the % chance of receiving the respective type of hit becomes more dramatic with the same defense value added.

 

For example, if you have a 20% chance to be crit vs a given enemy and you add 10 Defense, that will halve your chance to 10%. You only need to add 5 more Defense to halve that chance again to 5%. Add another 5 and you become totally immune to crits against that enemy.

 

Conversely, each additional point in Might, Con, Dex, or any stat that grants an additive advantage that doesn't approach any hard upper limit, is less valuable than the point before it. Your first point in Con, for instance (going from 3 to 4 Con), will take you from 65% of base health/endurance to 70%. .70/.65 = a 7.7% increase. Going from 10 to 11 Con, of course, is a 5% increase. Going from 17 to 18 Con will take you from 135% of base health/endurance to 140%. 1.40/1.35 = a 3.7% increase.

 

What I don't have is math to directly compare the relative values of Con and deflection. But, if they are within the ballpark of well-balanced now, my instincts would be to keep maxing Res, but have at least 10 Con, maybe more if it works out with your overall stat spread.

 

That math only applies to the relative utility. Going up in deflection, the points in crit range, hit range and grace range are replaced by a point in miss range respectively. This decreases your expected incoming damage by 0.015, 0.01, 0.005 respectively, where 1 corresponds to being hit consistently. So from an additive point of view, deflection scales worse than linear, while the attributes scale linearly. In particular, when you also try to consider DR, this analysis gets more nonlinear as well.

 

The relative value of Con and Deflection can be thought of like this:

Each time you double the value of con over 10, you can take twice as many attacks. Each time you halve the distance between your deflection and the enemies accuracy+100, you can take roughly twice as many attacks, assuming no DR.

So, as you already noticed, the difference is that the number of hits you can take grows linearly with constitution but exponential with deflection.

 

If you want the values such that a point in resolve is at least as good as a point of consitution in terms of attacks being able to take, you can only give it in terms of the difference between deflection and the enemies accuracy. If your deflection is much higher, resolve is the way to go, but if its low, con is the way to go. So dedicated tanks should always value resolve over con, but then again you should try to increase both of them anyway.