Chanter Invocation feedback

[Guest]

Level 1 Invocations (12-15 seconds to unlock, 15-18 seconds to cast)

 

But Reny - Summon: Phantom

The Thunder Rolled - Foe AoE: 4.0m Push, Stun for 5 sec vs Fortitude

If Their Bones - Summon: 3 Human Skeletons

White Worms - Foe AoE: 20-30 Crush vs Reflex

Thrice Was She Wronged - Foe AoE: 30-45 Shock vs Reflex

Not Felled - Friendly AoE: +10 DR (Slash), +10 DR Shock for 60 sec

And Hel-Hyraf - Foe AoE: -5 DR for 10 sec vs Fortitude

 

Comments:

Nothing really. These are all fairly solid for entry level invocations.

 

 

 

Level 2 Invocations (20-22 seconds to unlock, 23-26 seconds to cast)

 

Shatter Their Shackles - Friendly AoE: +10 Defense against Hobbled for 10 sec, +10 Defense against Stuck/Paralyzed/Petrified for 30 secs.

Reny Daret's Ghost - Foe AoE: Terrified for 12 sec vs Will

Gernisc Slew - Summon: 3 Wurms

The Lover - For AoE: Charmed for 6 sec vs Will

My Son - Summon: 2 Will-O-Wisps

At the Sound - Foe AoE: Paralyzed for 8 sec vs Will

 

Comments:

"Shackles" sounds great, but you're ~25 seconds into the fight before it can be used. If you need to use this, 25 seconds is probably too late. If the chanter has been Paralyzed or Petrified, then chants have been paused as well. Which means the point at which this will be helpful has been pushed back even further. This probably needs to be nerfed and made into a Phrase rather than continue on as an Invocation.

 

"Reny" - With the right Phrases, the chanter can have Frightened on continuous loop. Why take "Reny"?

 

"Gernisc" - not bad, but the opportunity cost of 3 wurms is Foe AoE: Paralyzed for 8 sec vs Will. If it's an easier fight, I don't need the adds. If it's a harder fight, I'm using figurines and using this invocation will dismiss those summons.

 

The Lover - Might be great, but I've never been tempted to take it. So far as I can tell, it basically equals "me wasting 30 seconds so that you'll stop attacking me for 6". Again, why would I use this when "Sound" is available?

 

"Son" - See "Gernisc". To be fair this was one of my go-to invocations for my first pass at Kana.

 

"Sound" - I'm going to live to regret what I'm about to say. "Sound" probably needs to be nerfed. It doesn't make any sense to cast anything else other than this once it becomes available. Have 3 chants built up? Wait a few more seconds; you almost have 4. Have 4 chants built up? Hmm. Summon some adds that are only going to be around for the last 10 seconds of the fight or Paralyze everything in front of you and let your party mop up while taking no damage for the rest of the fight? Have 5 chants built up? Pay attention; you could have cast Paralyze a few seconds ago! Level 1 invocations get forgotten. Level 3 invocations aren't worth waiting for. Shorten the length of the cone or narrow the degree or reduce the duration. Truthfully, even if you did come combination of all three, I'm probably still taking this over anything else here. "Shackles" has the potential to be awesome, but I don't see how you make it viable without also nerfing it (i.e making it into a weaker Level 1 invocation). That's it. Nothing else here is worth taking except these two (and one of them is currently sub-optimal).

 

 

 

Level 3 Invocations (~30 seconds to unlock, ~35 seconds to cast)

 

Oh, But Knock - Summon: 2 Ogres

Rise Again - Friendly AoE: Revive with 50 Endurance

The Bride - Friendly AoE: +5 Dexterity, Perception, and Intellect

The Brideman - Friendly AoE: +5 Might, Constitution, and Resolve

Seven Nights - Foe Target: 45-60 Freeze vs Reflex

Gernisc's Beast - Summon: Drake

 

Comments:

Let's be honest; these are only going to get used in boss fights. That means vs a dragon or the Thaos encounter. By the time you get one of these your party is mowing over most everything. By the time you get two of these, your party is mowing overy literally everything. With that said...

 

"Knock" - See "Gernisc" in the Level 2 Invocations section. 35 seconds to cast. Figure another 5 seconds for the ogres to get where they are going and engage melee. Figure another 3 seconds before they land their first hit. 45 seconds into the fight for 30 damage? Not. Effing. Worth it. At this point in the game, adds probably aren't doing much more than getting in the way of my casters.

 

"Rise" - ****ing. Worthless. Scroll of Revival requires what, 6 lore? Pretty sure Kana starts the game with 7. Also, pretty sure you can start buying these early in Act II. Why take an Invocation that can be replaced by a scroll? The only reason to take this is role play.

 

"Bride"/"Brideman" - Quite possibly the only Level 3 invocations worth taking. But...Brideman is basically the Celestial Sapling resting bonus. Both dragons and everything in the Thaos fight have high Will, meaning that "Sound" (Level 2 Invocation) is going to stop working in that encounter. Therefore, the only "good" invocation is now lost to you. Either of these (or both) make a good consolation prize.

 

"Seven" - Now that it's fixed, I'll have to try it again. Took it once. Used it once. Wiped out half my party during the Thaos fight. Had a bad taste in my mouth ever since. With that said, I think either of the 45 second party buffs (read: "continuous party buffs" since it only takes about 30 seconds to rack up enough chants to fire them off again) are better than a one-shot damage cast. In other words, now that's it actually is "Foe AoE", I'm still not sure that it's actually worth taking.

 

"Gernisc" - Took this once too. Used it during the Thaos fight. The drake spent the entire time on it's back cause it couldn't make the save against Woedica's Judge. Outside of that horrible experience, the logic behind the other "Gernisc" still applies.

 

 

tl;dr - the opportunity cost of "At The Sound of His Voice, The Killers Froze Stiff" is too high to justify taking/using anything else (therefore it probably needs to be nerfed). Most of the Summons are useless (unless you are refusing to use Figurines). Useful Level 3 Invocations can be replaced by resting bonuses and scrolls.

[KDubya]

I have not kept a chanter long enough at hard to get the level 3 invocations so I can't comment on those.

 

I have a PotD group that has a IE mod re-leveled Kana and has gotten the level 2 invocations. I agree with your analysis but I like the wurm summon more than you. My group is melee heavy so it kills slower but is more durable so I get to use invocations more frequently. The three wurms soak up attacks, can output some ranged fire damage and if your party is getting wiped can do more than a paralysis. If your group is more caster cannon then the paralysis would be better.

 

I really like the white worms corpse explosion invocation against xaurips. By the time you get the invocation up there are enough corpses to blow and its foe only as well.

[Guest]

I wouldn't say that my group is more "caster cannon", however I am very sensitive to enemy DR and will swap out spell and weapons to maximize effectiveness. Also, I try to have a heavy hitter (rogue or ranger) in my party at all times.

[JONNIN]

the chanter is really good at summoning nasty things.   Kana starts with the ultra weak skeletons instead of the rather nasty phantom, but you can fix this easily enough if you grab him early and level him.   Starting your own, just start with the phantom. 

 

Most of the other invocations are kind of weak for the amount of time it takes to build one up and use it.  They should maybe have made some of those cost a lot less; all the non-summon rank 1 invocations should only cost 2 points instead of 3, and probably do the same at all ranks (-1 cost for non-summons).  

 

The chanter is a frontloaded class, growing weaker in actual power at higher levels.   By the time you can summon the 3 wurms,  you start to feel it, the fights are over and you have 2-3 ticks (of 4 needed) built up --- and this gets worse the farther you go.   Most fights at high levels I just summon the wurms for a bit of ranged damage because the ogres will never happen outside of the toughest few fights.

Edited May 8, 2015 by JONNIN

[Ohioastro]

You are drastically, drastically undervaluing summons.  They're the defining feature of the class, especially on harder difficulties.  If the argument is "my party steamrollers everything before they arrive"....well, backloaded invocations aren't going to have a good answer, regardless of what the abilities do.

 

The role of the summons is crucial in clutch fights; the phrases give you interesting choices right off the bat.  I do like the other abilities that you mention and basically agree on your ranking of non-summons: but getting a summon up is always job one for a chanter for me.

[b0rsuk]

I wanted to make a thread like that myself.

 

Not Felled by Axe, Nor Broken by Storm – Increases the Slash and Shock Damage Reductions for allies in the area of effect.

As useful as a square *****. Slash is one of two most common damage sources, enemies start dealing it right away, not after a 12 second delay (best case). If you badly need slash and shock resistance - and few encounters have both - 12 seconds is a lot of time to get hurt. If you can last those 12 seconds without taking damage, you most likely don't need this invocation. Compare this to Dull the Edge, Blunt the Point which covers two very common resistances and comes instantly because it's a phrase.

 

Thrice Was She Wronged, and Thrice Justly Avenged – creates three bolts of lightning causing shock damage to any in their path.

A sub-par Fan of Flames / Winter Wind, much more vulnerable to DR. If you want something like that, just use a scroll. Becomes obsolete quickly as you level up.

 

And Hel-Hyraf Crashed upon the Shield – Reduces Damage Reduction of enemies in the area of effect. (-5 DR)

Has a Fortitude check, and that's the highest defense for most monsters. You can probably build a party around this - have many fast attacks, animal companions, hunting bows etc. But Thunder accomplishes much of the same, it lasts 5 seconds vs Hel-Hyraf's 12, but stun is stun.

 

At the Sound of His Voice, the Killers Froze Stiff – Paralyzes Enemy in the area of Effect. (8s)

Reny Daret's Ghost Spake, "I'll Catch You, Ben Fidel" – terrifies enemies in the area of effect. (12s)

Same area, same cone, same defense (Will). It's hard to make a case for "I'll Catch You".

 

Shatter their Shackles, Cast off their Chains! – Decreases duration of and defends against Hobbled, Petrified, Stuck and Paralyzed.

Ha ha ha ha! If you need this one, your Chanter is likely paralyzed too ! Add Stun and Prone to the list and I will consider it. Or make it a phrase. Terrible if you like using your invocations, you probably will need to wait several seconds to use it.

It might be useful if you use your Chanter strictly as a ranged attacker, and have his invocations "on standby", reactive rather than using as soon as possible. But this focus on reactive invocations needs a whole dedicated Chanter build I guess.

 

The Bride Caught their Ruse and Set to Make them Pay – Empowers allies in the area of effect with bonuses to Dexterity, Perception and Intellect.

One of the three boosted powers is Intellect, and Intellect is rarely useful in late stages of a battle, because many powers and spells are already used. If you hold off with using them just to benefit from the +5 Intellect bonus, you're fighting "naked" as you wait. I think I'd rather use the equivalent invocation that boosts Might, Con, Resolve.

I see possibilities to build a party around this, though. You would need classes that can continue using various Int-based powers for the entire battle. Monk, Cipher, Barbarian maybe ? Two chanters ?

But it looks good for an interrupt party.

 

My Son, Do you See your Sisters across the Moor? – summons two Will O'Wisps.

This comes on the same level a the invocation that summons 3 wurms. Wisps are extraordinarily wimpy, they're in the Temple of Eothas. 15 Fortitude!!! What was their special power again, Charm or Confusion ? The Lover Cried Out comes at the same level.

 

Oh, But Knock Not on the Door of Urdel and Gurdel – Summons two fearsome ogres to fight for the party for the duration.

I like it as much as one can like Double Minigun or Super Flak Cannon in Nuclear Throne... but let's be honest. If it summoned only one ogre, it would still be good. Which means this invocation is imba as hell.

 

Overall, I think level3 and level1 invocations are reasonably good. Level2 have the most outrageous balance problems. Niche invocations, weak creatures, stuff you need to build a party around to get any use out of.

Edited May 8, 2015 by b0rsuk

[srlapo]

Chanters should take a page from the casters' book and get a starting bonus to phrases used on higher levels, say 1 starting phrase at level 9 and 2 at 11. That would help the class access to medium and higher level abilities in "normal" fights.

Edited May 8, 2015 by srlapo

[b0rsuk]

Chanters should take a page from the casters' book and get a starting bonus to phrases used on higher levels, say 1 starting phrase at level 9 and 2 at 11. That would help the class access to medium and higher level abilities in "normal" fights.

Chanters should remain a bard class.

 

 

"Sound" - I'm going to live to regret what I'm about to say. "Sound" probably needs to be nerfed. It doesn't make any sense to cast anything else other than this once it becomes available. Have 3 chants built up? Wait a few more seconds; you almost have 4. Have 4 chants built up? Hmm. Summon some adds that are only going to be around for the last 10 seconds of the fight or Paralyze everything in front of you and let your party mop up while taking no damage for the rest of the fight? Have 5 chants built up? Pay attention; you could have cast Paralyze a few seconds ago! Level 1 invocations get forgotten. Level 3 invocations aren't worth waiting for. Shorten the length of the cone or narrow the degree or reduce the duration. Truthfully, even if you did come combination of all three, I'm probably still taking this over anything else here. "Shackles" has the potential to be awesome, but I don't see how you make it viable without also nerfing it (i.e making it into a weaker Level 1 invocation). That's it. Nothing else here is worth taking except these two (and one of them is currently sub-optimal).

 

I disagree - the main victim of Sound is not "Gernisc's Kin", but "I'll Catch You". Wurms don't target Will defense. Some monsters have high Will and attempting to paralyze them is not efficient. The wurms are solid damage dealers, the longer the battle the more they rack up. 8 seconds of paralyze is sometimes not enough! In those cases wurms outperform it. They also act as decoys, you can tempt enemies with them, and they're so fast it's easy to make them scatter in different directions. A nerf to the Sound would help balance, but not against wurms.

 

 

 

"Reny" - With the right Phrases, the chanter can have Frightened on continuous loop. Why take "Reny"?

Because it's twice as powerful. Because you may want to use a phrase for something else. Because sources of Frightened are quite common - even ranger's lion can frighten twice per encounter in a good area, for 11 seconds ! When I think about builds, I think of parties, not characters.

-----------------

 

Speaking of chants...

 

At the Sight of their Comrades, their Hearts Grew Bold – Increases the Fortitude and Will of allies in the area of effect. (lvl1, +10, +10)

One Dozen Stood Against the Power of the Saint – Decreases the duration of and defends against Frightened and terrified on allies. (lv2, +10)

See a problem here ? The higher level chant is strictly worse, unless you count longer duration as an upside. I see only two reasons to ever take it:

a) to make it overlap with the superior At the Sight,

b) when you have two Chanters in party. Then they can reach 100% overlap.

Edited May 8, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Narla]

 Corpse explosion is just good dumb fun, I recommend you use it whenever it's safe. The damage is terrible, the combat log spam is incredible, the sound effect is awful, but the range is insane, I just can't help checkle whenever I push that button. Killing bosses with it is an achievement I always aim for.

 

 Otherwise, most of the invocations have awful range and targetting. Did you know that it's impossible to get any of the invocation buffs on the chanter? Yep, really.

 

 For solo/smallgroup playing summons and charm are all great. For fullgroup playing lv2stun (vs will wow!!) is amazing but summons might have their place in some fights (and of course phantom before lv2stun is learned). Nothing else matters though.