Daemonjax Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) Here's the data I gathered for 1h dagger (not dual-wielding) used a dex 18 naked character. 50 : Game is paused 51 : Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 52 : Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 56 : Attack animation_A begins ( 56 - 51 = 5 frame attack delay) 70 : Idle animation begins ( 70 - 56 = 14 frame attack animation_A length) 75 : Recovery bar is full ( 75 - 70 = 5 frame recovery delay) 101: Recovery bar is empty (101 - 75 = 26 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (101 - 51 = 50 frames total 105: Attack animation_A begins (105 - 101 = 4 frame attack delay) 119: Idle animation begins (119 - 105 = 14 frame attack animation_B length) 125: Recovery bar is full (125 - 119 = 6 frame recovery delay) 150: Recovery bar is empty (150 - 125 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (150 - 101 = 49 frames total 154: Attack animation_B begins (154 - 150 = 4 frame attack delay) 169: Idle animation begins (169 - 154 = 15 frame attack animation_B length) 172: Recovery bar is full (172 - 169 = 3 frame recovery delay) 197: Recovery bar is empty (197 - 172 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (197 - 150 = 47 frames total 201: Attack animation_B begins (201 - 197 = 4 frame attack delay) 216: Idle animation begins (216 - 201 = 15 frame attack animation_B length) 219: Recovery bar is full (219 - 216 = 3 frame recovery delay) 244: Recovery bar is empty (244 - 219 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (244 - 197 = 47 frames total 248: Attack animation_B begins (248 - 244 = 4 frame attack delay) 263: Idle animation begins (263 - 248 = 15 frame attack animation_B length) 266: Recovery bar is full (266 - 263 = 3 frame recovery delay) 291: Recovery bar is empty (291 - 266 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (291 - 244 = 47 frames total 295: Attack animation_A begins (295 - 291 = 4 frame attack delay) 309: Idle animation begins (309 - 295 = 14 frame attack animation_B length) 315: Recovery bar is full (315 - 309 = 6 frame recovery delay) 340: Recovery bar is empty (340 - 315 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (340 - 291 = 49 frames total 344: Attack animation_A begins (344 - 340 = 4 frame attack delay) 358: Idle animation begins (358 - 344 = 14 frame attack animation_A length) 364: Recovery bar is full (364 - 358 = 6 frame recovery delay) 389: Recovery bar is empty (389 - 364 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (389 - 340 = 49 frames total 389 - 51 = 338 Total frames 338 / 7 = 48.29 Average frames per attack However, I would use (49 + 47) / 2 = 48 average frames per attack since there's probably a 50/50 chance of using either attack animation, and I don't want to consider the 1 frame discrepancy before the very first attack animation started. Interestingly, while I expected a 24% decrease in total frame time with 18 dexterity, we only really get a 17.76% decrease. I'd like to know whether dexterity bonus shown on the character sheet continues to be a lie for other weapons. EDIT: Fixed math. Edited April 3, 2015 by Daemonjax
Ololo Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Summing all this up: there is no point building a fast character, cause he still will remain a slowpoke... Great game!
Daemonjax Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) Summing all this up: there is no point building a fast character, cause he still will remain a slowpoke... Great game! Well, even just a 17.6% decrease in attack speed time would result in a 21.6% increase (because of how math works) in dps against 0 DR enemies. Of course, we never fight 0 DR enemies. And, I may get different results for different weapons. We'll see. EDIT: And, only looking at average attack frame times it actually comes out to 17.95% decrease (instead of 17.6%). It's more reasonable to do it that way now that I think about it. It's still not a 24% decrease, however. Edited April 3, 2015 by Daemonjax
Myrten Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) -Hit to Crit and Graze to Crit added to spreadsheet Here's the data I gathered for 1h dagger (not dual-wielding) used a dex 18 naked character. 50 : Game is paused 51 : Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 52 : Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 56 : Attack animation_A begins ( 56 - 51 = 5 frame attack delay) 70 : Idle animation begins ( 70 - 56 = 14 frame attack animation_A length) 75 : Recovery bar is full ( 75 - 70 = 5 frame recovery delay) 101: Recovery bar is empty (101 - 75 = 26 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (101 - 51 = 50 frames total 105: Attack animation_A begins (105 - 101 = 4 frame attack delay) 119: Idle animation begins (119 - 105 = 14 frame attack animation_B length) 125: Recovery bar is full (125 - 119 = 6 frame recovery delay) 150: Recovery bar is empty (150 - 125 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (150 - 101 = 49 frames total 154: Attack animation_B begins (154 - 150 = 4 frame attack delay) 169: Idle animation begins (169 - 154 = 15 frame attack animation_B length) 172: Recovery bar is full (172 - 169 = 3 frame recovery delay) 197: Recovery bar is empty (197 - 172 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (197 - 150 = 47 frames total 201: Attack animation_B begins (201 - 197 = 4 frame attack delay) 216: Idle animation begins (216 - 201 = 15 frame attack animation_B length) 219: Recovery bar is full (219 - 216 = 3 frame recovery delay) 244: Recovery bar is empty (244 - 219 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (244 - 197 = 47 frames total 248: Attack animation_B begins (248 - 244 = 4 frame attack delay) 263: Idle animation begins (263 - 248 = 15 frame attack animation_B length) 266: Recovery bar is full (266 - 263 = 3 frame recovery delay) 291: Recovery bar is empty (291 - 266 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (291 - 244 = 47 frames total 295: Attack animation_A begins (295 - 291 = 4 frame attack delay) 309: Idle animation begins (309 - 295 = 14 frame attack animation_B length) 315: Recovery bar is full (315 - 309 = 6 frame recovery delay) 340: Recovery bar is empty (340 - 315 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (340 - 291 = 49 frames total 344: Attack animation_A begins (344 - 340 = 4 frame attack delay) 358: Idle animation begins (358 - 344 = 14 frame attack animation_A length) 364: Recovery bar is full (364 - 358 = 6 frame recovery delay) 389: Recovery bar is empty (389 - 364 = 25 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (389 - 340 = 49 frames total 389 - 51 = 338 Total frames 338 / 7 = 48.29 Average frames per attack However, I would use (49 + 47) / 2 = 48 average frames per attack since there's probably a 50/50 chance of using either attack animation, and I don't want to consider the 1 frame discrepancy before the very first attack animation started. Interestingly, while I expected a 24% decrease in total frame time with 18 dexterity, we only really get a 17.76% decrease. I'd like to know whether dexterity bonus shown on the character sheet continues to be a lie for other weapons. EDIT: Fixed math. Could you try with different dex value? Maybe we can get some pattern Edited April 3, 2015 by Myrten
MaximKat Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Interestingly, while I expected a 24% decrease in total frame time with 18 dexterity, we only really get a 17.76% decrease. Seems to me that the attack and recovery animation times are modified correctly (17/1.24=14, 31/1.24=25), but the 4-6 frame transitions are mostly unaffected by dex. So the formula is attackTime / (1 + dexMod) + transitionTime. The question is whether the transition time is different for different weapons. Also, the relationship between attack time and recovery time is exactly like Sensuki has said: recoveryTime = attackTime * 1.2 (global mod) * 1.5 (1h penalty)
Daemonjax Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) I expect the transition frames for slower weapons to have less of an effect on total attack times, giving yet another edge to slower 2h weapons. We'll see. Edited April 3, 2015 by Daemonjax
Ololo Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) Well, even just a 17.6% decrease in attack speed time would result in a 21.6% increase (because of how math works) in dps against 0 DR enemies. Of course, we never fight 0 DR enemies. And, I may get different results for different weapons. We'll see. Sorry, but it still seems like bull****. Those differences I mean. Because in actual ingame fights there are just too many factors that negate those pitifull speed bonuses you get. It could mean smth at least if there were any common sense in default weapons speeds. Just for example, like you could shoot at least 2 arrows from average bow while you can shoot only one bolt form average crossbow during given time. Cause bows and crossbows have obvious speed diffences. Like dagger and great sword. Etc.But what we have ingame makes no real differences whatsoever. Interruptions alone totally negate them, and there are so much more... What I'm trying to say, is that % thing totally doesn't work here, until those % are really huge for different weapon classes. For example 10 dex makes your attack speed 50%. 14 dex makes it 100%, 18 dex - 150% etc And plus weapon's own speed defaults. Like what I said above - 100% speed for bow means 2 arrows, while 100% for crossbow is only 1 bolt for the same time. I guess you get the idea. The speed system we have right now is tottally useless when used in actual game with all other ingame conditions and needs to be reworked. All these calculation you made totally approve this. Edited April 4, 2015 by Ololo
Daemonjax Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) 1h sword (not dual-wielding), dex 10 naked: 0 : Game is paused 1 : Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 2 : Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 7 : Attack animation_A begins ( 7 - 1 = 6 frame attack delay) 33 : Idle animation begins ( 33 - 7 = 26 frame attack animation_A length) 37 : Recovery bar is full ( 37 - 33 = 4 frame recovery delay) 85 : Recovery bar is empty ( 85 - 37 = 48 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (85 - 1 = 84 frames total 91 : Attack animation_A begins ( 91 - 85 = 6 frame attack delay) 117: Idle animation begins (117 - 91 = 26 frame attack animation_A length) 122: Recovery bar is full (122 - 117 = 5 frame recovery delay) 169: Recovery bar is empty (169 - 122 = 47 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (169 - 85 = 84 frames total 175: Attack animation_A begins (175 - 169 = 6 frame attack delay) 201: Idle animation begins (201 - 175 = 26 frame attack animation_A length) 208: Recovery bar is full (208 - 201 = 7 frame recovery delay) 253: Recovery bar is empty (253 - 208 = 45 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (261 - 169 = 84 frames total 259: Attack animation_A begins (259 - 253 = 6 frame attack delay) 287: Idle animation begins (287 - 259 = 28 frame attack animation_A length) 292: Recovery bar is full (292 - 287 = 5 frame recovery delay) 339: Recovery bar is empty (339 - 292 = 47 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (244 - 197 = 86 frames total 344: Attack animation_B begins (344 - 339 = 5 frame attack delay) 371: Idle animation begins (371 - 344 = 27 frame attack animation_B length) 377: Recovery bar is full (377 - 371 = 6 frame recovery delay) 424: Recovery bar is empty (424 - 339 = 47 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (424 - 244 = 85 frames total 429: Attack animation_A begins (429 - 424 = 5 frame attack delay) 456: Idle animation begins (456 - 429 = 27 frame attack animation_A length) 462: Recovery bar is full (462 - 456 = 6 frame recovery delay) 509: Recovery bar is empty (509 - 462 = 47 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (509 - 424 = 85 frames total 514: Attack animation_B begins (514 - 509 = 5 frame attack delay) 540: Idle animation begins (540 - 514 = 26 frame attack animation_B length) 547: Recovery bar is full (547 - 540 = 7 frame recovery delay) 594: Recovery bar is empty (594 - 547 = 47 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (594 - 509 = 85 frames total 594 - 1 = 593 Total frames 593 / 7 = 84.71 Average frames per attack Prior to patch 1.03, I was getting 85 and 87 frame attacks, so this one turned out a little odd... might need more data samples. @Ololo: Hahah, yeah... it seems a little underwhelming. I do agree that the tooltips and character sheets shouldn't lie. Let's see what % decrease I get for 18 dex with a 1h sword. Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax
Daemonjax Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) 1h sword (not dual-wielding) dex 18 naked: 0 : Game is paused 1 : Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 2 : Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 5 : Attack animation_A begins ( 5 - 1 = 4 frame attack delay) 26 : Idle animation begins ( 26 - 5 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 32 : Recovery bar is full ( 32 - 26 = 6 frame recovery delay) 71 : Recovery bar is empty ( 71 - 32 = 39 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- ( 71 - 1 = 70 frames total 75: Attack animation_A begins ( 75 - 71 = 4 frame attack delay) 97: Idle animation begins ( 97 - 75 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 103: Recovery bar is full (103 - 97 = 6 frame recovery delay) 141: Recovery bar is empty (141 - 103 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (141 - 71 = 70 frames total 145: Attack animation_B begins (145 - 141 = 4 frame attack delay) 168: Idle animation begins (168 - 145 = 23 frame attack animation_B length) 173: Recovery bar is full (173 - 168 = 5 frame recovery delay) 211: Recovery bar is empty (211 - 173 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (211 - 141 = 70 frames total 215: Attack animation_B begins (215 - 211 = 4 frame attack delay) 238: Idle animation begins (238 - 215 = 23 frame attack animation_B length) 243: Recovery bar is full (243 - 238 = 5 frame recovery delay) 281: Recovery bar is empty (281 - 243 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (281 - 211 = 70 frames total 285: Attack animation_B begins (285 - 281 = 4 frame attack delay) 308: Idle animation begins (308 - 285 = 23 frame attack animation_B length) 313: Recovery bar is full (313 - 308 = 5 frame recovery delay) 351: Recovery bar is empty (351 - 313 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (424 - 244 = 70 frames total 355: Attack animation_A begins (355 - 351 = 4 frame attack delay) 377: Idle animation begins (377 - 355 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 383: Recovery bar is full (383 - 377 = 6 frame recovery delay) 421: Recovery bar is empty (421 - 383 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (509 - 424 = 70 frames total 425: Attack animation_A begins (425 - 421 = 4 frame attack delay) 447: Idle animation begins (447 - 425 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 453: Recovery bar is full (453 - 447 = 6 frame recovery delay) 491: Recovery bar is empty (491 - 453 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (491 - 421 = 70 frames total 491 - 1 = 490 Total frames 490 / 7 = 70 Average frames per attack That's a 17.36% decrease in attack speed time from 10 dex to 18 dex. So, the good news is slow weapons aren't getting a larger speed bonus from high dex than fast weapons. The bad news is we're not getting the bonus as shown in the character sheet. Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax
illathid Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) That spread sheet looks interesting. Would it be possible to use it to figure out the relative changes to DPS from different values of Dex and armor penalty? I'm trying to figure out just what the effective penalty of low Dex and full plate are to DPS. Edited April 4, 2015 by illathid "Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic." -Josh Sawyer
MaximKat Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 Try the slowest weapon you can find. Put on heavy armor too. Maybe an ability that slows you down.
Myrten Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) 1h sword (not dual-wielding) dex 18 naked: 0 : Game is paused 1 : Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 2 : Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 5 : Attack animation_A begins ( 5 - 1 = 4 frame attack delay) 26 : Idle animation begins ( 26 - 5 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 32 : Recovery bar is full ( 32 - 26 = 6 frame recovery delay) 71 : Recovery bar is empty ( 71 - 32 = 39 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- ( 71 - 1 = 70 frames total 75: Attack animation_A begins ( 75 - 71 = 4 frame attack delay) 97: Idle animation begins ( 97 - 75 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 103: Recovery bar is full (103 - 97 = 6 frame recovery delay) 141: Recovery bar is empty (141 - 103 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (141 - 71 = 70 frames total 145: Attack animation_B begins (145 - 141 = 4 frame attack delay) 168: Idle animation begins (168 - 145 = 23 frame attack animation_B length) 173: Recovery bar is full (173 - 168 = 5 frame recovery delay) 211: Recovery bar is empty (211 - 173 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (211 - 141 = 70 frames total 215: Attack animation_B begins (215 - 211 = 4 frame attack delay) 238: Idle animation begins (238 - 215 = 23 frame attack animation_B length) 243: Recovery bar is full (243 - 238 = 5 frame recovery delay) 281: Recovery bar is empty (281 - 243 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (281 - 211 = 70 frames total 285: Attack animation_B begins (285 - 281 = 4 frame attack delay) 308: Idle animation begins (308 - 285 = 23 frame attack animation_B length) 313: Recovery bar is full (313 - 308 = 5 frame recovery delay) 351: Recovery bar is empty (351 - 313 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (424 - 244 = 70 frames total 355: Attack animation_A begins (355 - 351 = 4 frame attack delay) 377: Idle animation begins (377 - 355 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 383: Recovery bar is full (383 - 377 = 6 frame recovery delay) 421: Recovery bar is empty (421 - 383 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (509 - 424 = 70 frames total 425: Attack animation_A begins (425 - 421 = 4 frame attack delay) 447: Idle animation begins (447 - 425 = 22 frame attack animation_A length) 453: Recovery bar is full (453 - 447 = 6 frame recovery delay) 491: Recovery bar is empty (491 - 453 = 38 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (491 - 421 = 70 frames total 491 - 1 = 490 Total frames 490 / 7 = 70 Average frames per attack That's a 17.36% decrease in attack speed time from 10 dex to 18 dex. So, the good news is slow weapons aren't getting a larger speed bonus from high dex than fast weapons. The bad news is we're not getting the bonus as shown in the character sheet. I think I might have found an explanation: If you remove all recovery delays (they are not affected (like 103: Recovery bar is full (103 - 97 = 6 frame recovery delay)) difference is around 23% It's very close to 24% and it will never be excact due to rounding. Can you also do the same test with 14 dex? I guess we will have to modify our chart a bit and include these delays. Edited April 4, 2015 by Myrten
Daemonjax Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) I think I might have found an explanation: If you remove all recovery delays (they are not affected (like 103: Recovery bar is full (103 - 97 = 6 frame recovery delay)) difference is around 23% It's very close to 24% and it will never be excact due to rounding. Can you also do the same test with 14 dex? I guess we will have to modify our chart a bit and include these delays. Yeah, I plan to do a test with 14 dex. The delays actually are affected, though. One of the delays is affected. The delay after attacking (just before the recovery bar shows up) does not appear to, though. It gets more interesting with the daggers... Both delays are affected by dex for one animation, but only one is affected on the other. That's why daggers got a slightly higher speed boost than 1h swords by going from 10 dex to 18. EDIT: Grrr... it looks like both might be affected for 1h swords, but the reduction is very small. It really sucks that the alternate swing animations affect attack speed for weapons. Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax
Daemonjax Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) Dual-wielding daggers dex 10 naked: 0: Game is paused 1: Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 2: Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 6: Attack animation_A begins ( 6 - 1 = 5 frame attack delay) 23: Idle animation begins ( 23 - 6 = 17 frame attack animation_A length) 28: Recovery bar is full ( 28 - 23 = 5 frame recovery delay) 44: Recovery bar is empty ( 44 - 28 = 16 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- ( 44 - 1 = 43 frames total 48: Attack animation_O begins ( 48 - 44 = 4 frame attack delay) 66: Idle animation begins ( 66 - 48 = 18 frame attack animation_O length) 70: Recovery bar is full ( 70 - 66 = 3 frame recovery delay) 85: Recovery bar is empty ( 85 - 70 = 15 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- ( 85 - 44 = 41 frames total ------------------------------- 89: Attack animation_B begins ( 89 - 85 = 4 frame attack delay) 108: Idle animation begins (108 - 89 = 19 frame attack animation_B length) 111: Recovery bar is full (111 - 108 = 3 frame recovery delay) 126: Recovery bar is empty (126 - 111 = 15 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (126 - 85 = 41 frames total 129: Attack animation_O begins (129 - 126 = 3 frame attack delay) 148: Idle animation begins (148 - 129 = 19 frame attack animation_O length) 152: Recovery bar is full (152 - 148 = 4 frame recovery delay) 167: Recovery bar is empty (167 - 152 = 15 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (167 - 126 = 41 frames total ------------------------------- 171: Attack animation_B begins (171 - 167 = 4 frame attack delay) 189: Idle animation begins (189 - 171 = 17 frame attack animation_B length) 193: Recovery bar is full (193 - 189 = 4 frame recovery delay) 208: Recovery bar is empty (208 - 193 = 15 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (208 - 167 = 41 frames total 211: Attack animation_O begins (211 - 208 = 3 frame attack delay) 230: Idle animation begins (230 - 211 = 19 frame attack animation_O length) 234: Recovery bar is full (234 - 230 = 4 frame recovery delay) 249: Recovery bar is empty (249 - 234 = 15 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (249 - 208 = 41 frames total 249 - 1 = 248 Total frames 249 / 6 = 41.33 Average frames per attack I'd drop the first sample and go with 41 frames per attack. Actually, it would be better to add an imaginary attack using the A type animation with an accompanying offhand attack to get the average time... so 248 + 43 + 41 = 332 => 332 / 8 = 41.5 So... dual-wielding reduced average attack frame times by 14.58% 13.54% Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax
MaximKat Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) I've added cipher focus gain column to the spreadsheet. Here is the logic, if anyone want to double check everything: 1. basic focus gain is 25% of the damage dealt (verified with the CheatEngine to see the fractional values of the focus) 2. draining whip adds flat bonus of 2 per hit, here hit means any attack that connects, including grazes so the formula is: (average focus gain) = 0.25 * (average damage) + 2 * (number of attacks) * (1 - chance of miss) to get the correct values, you need to set the damage mod manually to the correct value: 1.2 for regular soul whip and 1.4 for biting whip. Edited April 4, 2015 by MaximKat
Daemonjax Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) dual-wielding battle axes, 10 dex naked: 0 : Game is paused 1 : Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 2 : Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 7 : Attack animation_A begins ( 7 - 1 = 6 frame attack delay) 33 : Idle animation begins ( 32 - 7 = 25 frame attack animation_A length) 37 : Recovery bar is full ( 38 - 32 = 6 frame recovery delay) 62 : Recovery bar is empty ( 62 - 38 = 24 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- ( 62 - 1 = 61 frames total 66 : Attack animation_O begins ( 66 - 62 = 4 frame attack delay) 95 : Idle animation begins ( 95 - 66 = 29 frame attack animation_O length) 100: Recovery bar is full (100 - 95 = 5 frame recovery delay) 123: Recovery bar is empty (123 - 100 = 23 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (123 - 62 = 61 frames total ------------------------------- 127: Attack animation_B begins (127 - 123 = 4 frame attack delay) 155: Idle animation begins (155 - 127 = 28 frame attack animation_B length) 161: Recovery bar is full (161 - 155 = 6 frame recovery delay) 184: Recovery bar is empty (184 - 161 = 23 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (184 - 123 = 61 frames total 188: Attack animation_O begins (188 - 184 = 4 frame attack delay) 216: Idle animation begins (216 - 188 = 28 frame attack animation_O length) 220: Recovery bar is full (220 - 216 = 4 frame recovery delay) 243: Recovery bar is empty (243 - 220 = 23 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (243 - 184 = 59 frames total ------------------------------- 246: Attack animation_B begins (246 - 243 = 3 frame attack delay) 275: Idle animation begins (275 - 246 = 31 frame attack animation_B length) 280: Recovery bar is full (280 - 275 = 5 frame recovery delay) 303: Recovery bar is empty (303 - 280 = 23 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (303 - 243 = 60 frames total 306: Attack animation_O begins (306 - 303 = 3 frame attack delay) 334: Idle animation begins (334 - 306 = 28 frame attack animation_O length) 338: Recovery bar is full (338 - 334 = 4 frame recovery delay) 361: Recovery bar is empty (361 - 338 = 23 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (361 - 303 = 58 frames total ------------------------------- 361 - 1 = 360 Total frames 360 / 6 = 60 Average frames per attack Dual-wielding them provides a 14.29% reduction in average attack frame times when compared to not dual-wielding them, provided 1h sword and battle axe have the same same average attack frame times (I assume that's true for all 1h average speed melee weapons). Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax
Myrten Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 I got an idea - set dexterity to 50 by console and check what is affected. This should give some decisive results
Daemonjax Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) I got an idea - set dexterity to 50 by console and check what is affected. This should give some decisive results Yeah, I'll give that a shot. Also: 1h dagger (not dual-wielding) dex 14 naked: 0: Game is paused 1: Game is NOT paused ------------------------------- 2: Actor animations start playing ------------------------------- 6: Attack animation_A begins ( 6 - 1 = 5 frame attack delay) 21: Idle animation begins ( 21 - 6 = 15 frame attack animation_A length) 26: Recovery bar is full ( 26 - 21 = 5 frame recovery delay) 54: Recovery bar is empty ( 54 - 26 = 28 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- ( 54 - 1 = 53 frames total 59: Attack animation_A begins ( 59 - 54 = 5 frame attack delay) 75: Idle animation begins ( 75 - 59 = 16 frame attack animation_A length) 78: Recovery bar is full ( 78 - 75 = 3 frame recovery delay) 107: Recovery bar is empty (107 - 78 = 29 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (107 - 54 = 53 frames total 112: Attack animation_A begins (112 - 107 = 5 frame attack delay) 127: Idle animation begins (127 - 112 = 15 frame attack animation_A length) 133: Recovery bar is full (133 - 127 = 6 frame recovery delay) 160: Recovery bar is empty (160 - 133 = 27 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (160 - 107 = 53 frames total 165: Attack animation_B begins (165 - 160 = 5 frame attack delay) 183: Idle animation begins (183 - 165 = 18 frame attack animation_B length) 186: Recovery bar is full (186 - 183 = 3 frame recovery delay) 213: Recovery bar is empty (213 - 186 = 27 frame recovery length) ------------------------------- (213 - 160 = 53 frames total 213 - 1 = 212 total frames 212 / 4 = 53 average frames per attack That's a 9.4% reduction of attack frame times compared to 10 dex. Note: 18 dex was a 17.95% reduction... so it's looking rather linear... each point of dex is ~2.25% reduction (not the expected 3%). Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax
Baki Posted April 4, 2015 Author Posted April 4, 2015 i think we should change how we handle accuracy in the sheet lets say we have these stats: Avg base weapon damage: 10 Dmg Mod from might etc: 100% DR of the target 10 5% Miss 35% Graze 50% Hit 10% Crit then the avg dmg would be 0.35*10*(1+1-0.5)-10 +0.5*10*(1+1)-10 +0.1*10*(1+1+0.5)-10 We cant just calculate an accuracy mod of 0.685 and use that as a factor like we currently do.
Myrten Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 i think we should change how we handle accuracy in the sheet lets say we have these stats: Avg base weapon damage: 10 Dmg Mod from might etc: 100% DR of the target 10 5% Miss 35% Graze 50% Hit 10% Crit then the avg dmg would be 0.35*10*(1+1-0.5)-10 +0.5*10*(1+1)-10 +0.1*10*(1+1+0.5)-10 We cant just calculate an accuracy mod of 0.685 and use that as a factor like we currently do. Accuracy mod is only informative, actual calculation is 100% correct now.
Baki Posted April 4, 2015 Author Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) but you use total dmg mod? what we currently do is: BaseDmg*TotalDmgMod-DR and we should do ChanceGraze*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModGraze-DR + ChanceHit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModHit-DR + ChanceCrit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModCrit-DR Let me do it with numbers: 10 Weapon Base Dmg, no Dmg Mod (Dmg Mod=1), No Accuracy Mod, DR 3 currently we calculate the total dmg mod first. 0.35*0.5+0.5*1=0.675 Then we calculate the Dmg: 10*0.675-3=3.75 But what we should do is: 0.35*(10*(1-0.5)-3) + 0.5*(10*(1+0)-3) = 4.2 Edited April 4, 2015 by Baki
Myrten Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 but you use total dmg mod? what we currently do is: BaseDmg*TotalDmgMod-DR and we should do ChanceGraze*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModGraze-DR + ChanceHit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModHit-DR + ChanceCrit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModCrit-DR TotalDmgMod is ChanceGraze*TotalDmgModGraze + ChanceHit*TotalDmgModHit+ ChanceCrit*TotalDmgModCrit I see your point that it's a bit different to substracting DR from graze/hit/crit damage individually, but to be honest this could complicate the damage formula to the point when nobody could understand it. I'd leave it as it is unless you can give me an example when this would make significant difference.
Baki Posted April 4, 2015 Author Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) 20 WeaponDmg vs 40 WeaponDmg 10DR 0 Dmg Mods 0 Accuracy Mods Old Way: 20 Base -> 3.5 Dmg 40 Base -> 17 Dmg Comparision 17/3.5=4.85 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 4.85 times better. New Way: 20 Base -> 5 Dmg 40 Base -> 18.5 Dmg Comparision 18.5/5=3.7 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 3.7 times better. 4.85/3.7= 1.31 -> the old calculation favors the higher weapon damage by 31% -> 31% inaccurate. thats nearly 1/3. clearly significant imo. this would get worse if we had a situation with high dmg mods and critchance. Edited April 4, 2015 by Baki
Ohioastro Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 So, to summarize, the Dex bonus at 18 is 1/1.24, not 1-0.24?
Baki Posted April 4, 2015 Author Posted April 4, 2015 probably, yes. we don't know for sure yet. it might be even lower because some minor parts of the animation might not be affected by dex at all.
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