Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery

Daemonjax · April 3, 2015

Here's the data I gathered for 1h dagger (not dual-wielding) used a dex 18 naked character.

Reveal hidden contents

389 - 51 = 338 Total frames

338 / 7 = 48.29 Average frames per attack

However, I would use (49 + 47) / 2 = 48 average frames per attack since there's probably a 50/50 chance of using either attack animation, and I don't want to consider the 1 frame discrepancy before the very first attack animation started.

Interestingly, while I expected a 24% decrease in total frame time with 18 dexterity, we only really get a 17.76% decrease.

I'd like to know whether dexterity bonus shown on the character sheet continues to be a lie for other weapons.

EDIT: Fixed math.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Daemonjax

Ololo · April 3, 2015

Summing all this up: there is no point building a fast character, cause he still will remain a slowpoke... Great game!

Daemonjax · April 3, 2015

On 4/3/2015 at 11:13 PM, Ololo said:
Summing all this up: there is no point building a fast character, cause he still will remain a slowpoke... Great game!

Well, even just a 17.6% decrease in attack speed time would result in a 21.6% increase (because of how math works) in dps against 0 DR enemies. Of course, we never fight 0 DR enemies.

And, I may get different results for different weapons. We'll see.

EDIT: And, only looking at average attack frame times it actually comes out to 17.95% decrease (instead of 17.6%). It's more reasonable to do it that way now that I think about it. It's still not a 24% decrease, however.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Daemonjax

Myrten · April 3, 2015

-Hit to Crit and Graze to Crit added to spreadsheet

On 4/3/2015 at 10:45 PM, Daemonjax said:

Here's the data I gathered for 1h dagger (not dual-wielding) used a dex 18 naked character.

Reveal hidden contents

50 : Game is paused

51 : Game is NOT paused

-------------------------------

52 : Actor animations start playing

-------------------------------

56 : Attack animation_A begins ( 56 - 51 = 5 frame attack delay)

70 : Idle animation begins ( 70 - 56 = 14 frame attack animation_A length)

75 : Recovery bar is full ( 75 - 70 = 5 frame recovery delay)

101: Recovery bar is empty (101 - 75 = 26 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (101 - 51 = 50 frames total

105: Attack animation_A begins (105 - 101 = 4 frame attack delay)

119: Idle animation begins (119 - 105 = 14 frame attack animation_B length)

125: Recovery bar is full (125 - 119 = 6 frame recovery delay)

150: Recovery bar is empty (150 - 125 = 25 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (150 - 101 = 49 frames total

154: Attack animation_B begins (154 - 150 = 4 frame attack delay)

169: Idle animation begins (169 - 154 = 15 frame attack animation_B length)

172: Recovery bar is full (172 - 169 = 3 frame recovery delay)

197: Recovery bar is empty (197 - 172 = 25 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (197 - 150 = 47 frames total

201: Attack animation_B begins (201 - 197 = 4 frame attack delay)

216: Idle animation begins (216 - 201 = 15 frame attack animation_B length)

219: Recovery bar is full (219 - 216 = 3 frame recovery delay)

244: Recovery bar is empty (244 - 219 = 25 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (244 - 197 = 47 frames total

248: Attack animation_B begins (248 - 244 = 4 frame attack delay)

263: Idle animation begins (263 - 248 = 15 frame attack animation_B length)

266: Recovery bar is full (266 - 263 = 3 frame recovery delay)

291: Recovery bar is empty (291 - 266 = 25 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (291 - 244 = 47 frames total

295: Attack animation_A begins (295 - 291 = 4 frame attack delay)

309: Idle animation begins (309 - 295 = 14 frame attack animation_B length)

315: Recovery bar is full (315 - 309 = 6 frame recovery delay)

340: Recovery bar is empty (340 - 315 = 25 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (340 - 291 = 49 frames total

344: Attack animation_A begins (344 - 340 = 4 frame attack delay)

358: Idle animation begins (358 - 344 = 14 frame attack animation_A length)

364: Recovery bar is full (364 - 358 = 6 frame recovery delay)

389: Recovery bar is empty (389 - 364 = 25 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (389 - 340 = 49 frames total

389 - 51 = 338 Total frames

338 / 7 = 48.29 Average frames per attack

However, I would use (49 + 47) / 2 = 48 average frames per attack since there's probably a 50/50 chance of using either attack animation, and I don't want to consider the 1 frame discrepancy before the very first attack animation started.

Interestingly, while I expected a 24% decrease in total frame time with 18 dexterity, we only really get a 17.76% decrease.

I'd like to know whether dexterity bonus shown on the character sheet continues to be a lie for other weapons.

EDIT: Fixed math.

Could you try with different dex value? Maybe we can get some pattern Edited April 3, 2015 by Myrten

MaximKat · April 3, 2015

On 4/3/2015 at 10:45 PM, Daemonjax said:
Interestingly, while I expected a 24% decrease in total frame time with 18 dexterity, we only really get a 17.76% decrease.

Seems to me that the attack and recovery animation times are modified correctly (17/1.24=14, 31/1.24=25), but the 4-6 frame transitions are mostly unaffected by dex. So the formula is attackTime / (1 + dexMod) + transitionTime. The question is whether the transition time is different for different weapons.

Also, the relationship between attack time and recovery time is exactly like Sensuki has said: recoveryTime = attackTime * 1.2 (global mod) * 1.5 (1h penalty)

Daemonjax · April 3, 2015

I expect the transition frames for slower weapons to have less of an effect on total attack times, giving yet another edge to slower 2h weapons. We'll see.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Daemonjax

Ololo · April 4, 2015

On 4/3/2015 at 11:30 PM, Daemonjax said:

Well, even just a 17.6% decrease in attack speed time would result in a 21.6% increase (because of how math works) in dps against 0 DR enemies. Of course, we never fight 0 DR enemies.

And, I may get different results for different weapons. We'll see.

Sorry, but it still seems like bull****. Those differences I mean. Because in actual ingame fights there are just too many factors that negate those pitifull speed bonuses you get. It could mean smth at least if there were any common sense in default weapons speeds. Just for example, like you could shoot at least 2 arrows from average bow while you can shoot only one bolt form average crossbow during given time. Cause bows and crossbows have obvious speed diffences. Like dagger and great sword. Etc.But what we have ingame makes no real differences whatsoever. Interruptions alone totally negate them, and there are so much more...

What I'm trying to say, is that % thing totally doesn't work here, until those % are really huge for different weapon classes. For example 10 dex makes your attack speed 50%. 14 dex makes it 100%, 18 dex - 150% etc And plus weapon's own speed defaults. Like what I said above - 100% speed for bow means 2 arrows, while 100% for crossbow is only 1 bolt for the same time. I guess you get the idea.

The speed system we have right now is tottally useless when used in actual game with all other ingame conditions and needs to be reworked. All these calculation you made totally approve this.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ololo

Daemonjax · April 4, 2015

1h sword (not dual-wielding), dex 10 naked:

Reveal hidden contents

594 - 1 = 593 Total frames

593 / 7 = 84.71 Average frames per attack

Prior to patch 1.03, I was getting 85 and 87 frame attacks, so this one turned out a little odd... might need more data samples.

@Ololo: Hahah, yeah... it seems a little underwhelming. I do agree that the tooltips and character sheets shouldn't lie. Let's see what % decrease I get for 18 dex with a 1h sword.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax

Daemonjax · April 4, 2015

1h sword (not dual-wielding) dex 18 naked:

Reveal hidden contents

491 - 1 = 490 Total frames

490 / 7 = 70 Average frames per attack

That's a 17.36% decrease in attack speed time from 10 dex to 18 dex.

So, the good news is slow weapons aren't getting a larger speed bonus from high dex than fast weapons. The bad news is we're not getting the bonus as shown in the character sheet.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax

illathid · April 4, 2015

That spread sheet looks interesting. Would it be possible to use it to figure out the relative changes to DPS from different values of Dex and armor penalty? I'm trying to figure out just what the effective penalty of low Dex and full plate are to DPS.

Edited April 4, 2015 by illathid

MaximKat · April 4, 2015

Try the slowest weapon you can find. Put on heavy armor too. Maybe an ability that slows you down.

Myrten · April 4, 2015

On 4/4/2015 at 2:16 AM, Daemonjax said:

1h sword (not dual-wielding) dex 18 naked:

Reveal hidden contents

0 : Game is paused

1 : Game is NOT paused

-------------------------------

2 : Actor animations start playing

-------------------------------

5 : Attack animation_A begins ( 5 - 1 = 4 frame attack delay)

26 : Idle animation begins ( 26 - 5 = 22 frame attack animation_A length)

32 : Recovery bar is full ( 32 - 26 = 6 frame recovery delay)

71 : Recovery bar is empty ( 71 - 32 = 39 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- ( 71 - 1 = 70 frames total

75: Attack animation_A begins ( 75 - 71 = 4 frame attack delay)

97: Idle animation begins ( 97 - 75 = 22 frame attack animation_A length)

103: Recovery bar is full (103 - 97 = 6 frame recovery delay)

141: Recovery bar is empty (141 - 103 = 38 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (141 - 71 = 70 frames total

145: Attack animation_B begins (145 - 141 = 4 frame attack delay)

168: Idle animation begins (168 - 145 = 23 frame attack animation_B length)

173: Recovery bar is full (173 - 168 = 5 frame recovery delay)

211: Recovery bar is empty (211 - 173 = 38 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (211 - 141 = 70 frames total

215: Attack animation_B begins (215 - 211 = 4 frame attack delay)

238: Idle animation begins (238 - 215 = 23 frame attack animation_B length)

243: Recovery bar is full (243 - 238 = 5 frame recovery delay)

281: Recovery bar is empty (281 - 243 = 38 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (281 - 211 = 70 frames total

285: Attack animation_B begins (285 - 281 = 4 frame attack delay)

308: Idle animation begins (308 - 285 = 23 frame attack animation_B length)

313: Recovery bar is full (313 - 308 = 5 frame recovery delay)

351: Recovery bar is empty (351 - 313 = 38 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (424 - 244 = 70 frames total

355: Attack animation_A begins (355 - 351 = 4 frame attack delay)

377: Idle animation begins (377 - 355 = 22 frame attack animation_A length)

383: Recovery bar is full (383 - 377 = 6 frame recovery delay)

421: Recovery bar is empty (421 - 383 = 38 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (509 - 424 = 70 frames total

425: Attack animation_A begins (425 - 421 = 4 frame attack delay)

447: Idle animation begins (447 - 425 = 22 frame attack animation_A length)

453: Recovery bar is full (453 - 447 = 6 frame recovery delay)

491: Recovery bar is empty (491 - 453 = 38 frame recovery length)

------------------------------- (491 - 421 = 70 frames total

491 - 1 = 490 Total frames

490 / 7 = 70 Average frames per attack

That's a 17.36% decrease in attack speed time from 10 dex to 18 dex.

So, the good news is slow weapons aren't getting a larger speed bonus from high dex than fast weapons. The bad news is we're not getting the bonus as shown in the character sheet.

I think I might have found an explanation:

If you remove all recovery delays (they are not affected (like 103: Recovery bar is full (103 - 97 = 6 frame recovery delay)) difference is around 23% It's very close to 24% and it will never be excact due to rounding.

Can you also do the same test with 14 dex?

I guess we will have to modify our chart a bit and include these delays.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Myrten

Daemonjax · April 4, 2015

On 4/4/2015 at 3:08 AM, Myrten said:

I think I might have found an explanation:

If you remove all recovery delays (they are not affected (like 103: Recovery bar is full (103 - 97 = 6 frame recovery delay)) difference is around 23% It's very close to 24% and it will never be excact due to rounding.

Can you also do the same test with 14 dex?

I guess we will have to modify our chart a bit and include these delays.

Yeah, I plan to do a test with 14 dex.

~~The delays actually are affected, though.~~ One of the delays is affected. The delay after attacking (just before the recovery bar shows up) does not appear to, though.

It gets more interesting with the daggers...

Both delays are affected by dex for one animation, but only one is affected on the other. That's why daggers got a slightly higher speed boost than 1h swords by going from 10 dex to 18.

EDIT: Grrr... it looks like both might be affected for 1h swords, but the reduction is very small. It really sucks that the alternate swing animations affect attack speed for weapons.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax

Daemonjax · April 4, 2015

Dual-wielding daggers dex 10 naked:

Reveal hidden contents

249 - 1 = 248 Total frames

249 / 6 = 41.33 Average frames per attack

~~I'd drop the first sample and go with 41 frames per attack.~~ Actually, it would be better to add an imaginary attack using the A type animation with an accompanying offhand attack to get the average time... so 248 + 43 + 41 = 332 => 332 / 8 = 41.5

So... dual-wielding reduced average attack frame times by ~~14.58%~~ 13.54%

Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax

MaximKat · April 4, 2015

I've added cipher focus gain column to the spreadsheet. Here is the logic, if anyone want to double check everything:

1. basic focus gain is 25% of the damage dealt (verified with the CheatEngine to see the fractional values of the focus)

2. draining whip adds flat bonus of 2 per hit, here hit means any attack that connects, including grazes

so the formula is:

(average focus gain) = 0.25 * (average damage) + 2 * (number of attacks) * (1 - chance of miss)

to get the correct values, you need to set the damage mod manually to the correct value: 1.2 for regular soul whip and 1.4 for biting whip.

Edited April 4, 2015 by MaximKat

Daemonjax · April 4, 2015

dual-wielding battle axes, 10 dex naked:

Reveal hidden contents

361 - 1 = 360 Total frames

360 / 6 = 60 Average frames per attack

Dual-wielding them provides a 14.29% reduction in average attack frame times when compared to not dual-wielding them, provided 1h sword and battle axe have the same same average attack frame times (I assume that's true for all 1h average speed melee weapons).

Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax

Myrten · April 4, 2015

I got an idea - set dexterity to 50 by console and check what is affected. This should give some decisive results

Daemonjax · April 4, 2015

On 4/4/2015 at 8:32 AM, Myrten said:
I got an idea - set dexterity to 50 by console and check what is affected. This should give some decisive results

Yeah, I'll give that a shot.

Also:

1h dagger (not dual-wielding) dex 14 naked:

Reveal hidden contents

213 - 1 = 212 total frames

212 / 4 = 53 average frames per attack

That's a 9.4% reduction of attack frame times compared to 10 dex.

Note: 18 dex was a 17.95% reduction... so it's looking rather linear... each point of dex is ~2.25% reduction (not the expected 3%).

Edited April 4, 2015 by Daemonjax

Baki · April 4, 2015

i think we should change how we handle accuracy in the sheet

lets say we have these stats:

Avg base weapon damage: 10

Dmg Mod from might etc: 100%

DR of the target 10

5% Miss

35% Graze

50% Hit

10% Crit

then the avg dmg would be

0.35*10*(1+1-0.5)-10

+0.5*10*(1+1)-10

+0.1*10*(1+1+0.5)-10

We cant just calculate an accuracy mod of 0.685 and use that as a factor like we currently do.

Myrten · April 4, 2015

On 4/4/2015 at 11:55 AM, Baki said:

i think we should change how we handle accuracy in the sheet

lets say we have these stats:

Avg base weapon damage: 10

Dmg Mod from might etc: 100%

DR of the target 10

5% Miss

35% Graze

50% Hit

10% Crit

then the avg dmg would be

0.35*10*(1+1-0.5)-10

+0.5*10*(1+1)-10

+0.1*10*(1+1+0.5)-10

We cant just calculate an accuracy mod of 0.685 and use that as a factor like we currently do.

Accuracy mod is only informative, actual calculation is 100% correct now.

Baki · April 4, 2015

but you use total dmg mod?

what we currently do is: BaseDmg*TotalDmgMod-DR

and we should do

ChanceGraze*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModGraze-DR + ChanceHit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModHit-DR + ChanceCrit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModCrit-DR

Let me do it with numbers:

10 Weapon Base Dmg, no Dmg Mod (Dmg Mod=1), No Accuracy Mod, DR 3

currently we calculate the total dmg mod first. 0.35*0.5+0.5*1=0.675

Then we calculate the Dmg: 10*0.675-3=3.75

But what we should do is:

0.35*(10*(1-0.5)-3) + 0.5*(10*(1+0)-3) = 4.2

Edited April 4, 2015 by Baki

Myrten · April 4, 2015

On 4/4/2015 at 12:14 PM, Baki said:

but you use total dmg mod?

what we currently do is: BaseDmg*TotalDmgMod-DR

and we should do

ChanceGraze*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModGraze-DR + ChanceHit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModHit-DR + ChanceCrit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModCrit-DR

TotalDmgMod is ChanceGraze*TotalDmgModGraze + ChanceHit*TotalDmgModHit+ ChanceCrit*TotalDmgModCrit

I see your point that it's a bit different to substracting DR from graze/hit/crit damage individually, but to be honest this could complicate the damage formula to the point when nobody could understand it. I'd leave it as it is unless you can give me an example when this would make significant difference.

Baki · April 4, 2015

20 WeaponDmg vs 40 WeaponDmg

10DR

0 Dmg Mods

0 Accuracy Mods

Old Way:

20 Base -> 3.5 Dmg

40 Base -> 17 Dmg

Comparision 17/3.5=4.85 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 4.85 times better.

New Way:

20 Base -> 5 Dmg

40 Base -> 18.5 Dmg

Comparision 18.5/5=3.7 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 3.7 times better.

4.85/3.7= 1.31 -> the old calculation favors the higher weapon damage by 31% -> 31% inaccurate. thats nearly 1/3. clearly significant imo.

this would get worse if we had a situation with high dmg mods and critchance.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Baki

Ohioastro · April 4, 2015

So, to summarize, the Dex bonus at 18 is 1/1.24, not 1-0.24?

Baki · April 4, 2015

probably, yes. we don't know for sure yet. it might be even lower because some minor parts of the animation might not be affected by dex at all.

Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery

Recommended Posts

Daemonjax

Ololo

Daemonjax

Myrten

MaximKat

Daemonjax

Ololo

Daemonjax

Daemonjax

illathid

MaximKat

Myrten

Daemonjax

Daemonjax

MaximKat

Daemonjax

Myrten

Daemonjax

Baki

Myrten

Baki

Myrten

Baki

Ohioastro

Baki

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Forums

Activity