Wasteland 2

[Hiro Protagonist II]

without more info, your anecdote is less than enlightening. what skills does your high charisma ranger posses? as we noted above, the character we got with the charisma o' six has skills that do not get frequent use. based on our experience, a two or three point differential in charisma is less significant (far less significant) than skill choice insofar as xp gains is concerned. Gromnir is already at level 25/26, so your three additional levels is hardly a meaningful factor.

 

high charisma is a waste. is arguable that any charisma past 1 is a waste. charisma doesn't affect leadership area of effect, and it has less impact on xp gains than does skill choice.  in fact, with benefit o' game experience and some testing, we would feel confident in stating that charisma is less useful than is luck, and luck is not particular useful either. charisma is to attributes as barter is to skills. 

 

one wonders what the inxile developers were thinking when they created two dump attributes.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

4 skills. Alarm disarm, Kiss ass, Leadership and Assault Rifles. Alarm disarm is something that wasn't fully utilised in the first half of the game and only really comes into play in LA. Kiss Ass is not that much different to all the other dialogue skills. Leadership doesn't grant xp so it's a background skill. Assault Rifles is the last skill I took with my Leader. And that's it. No other skills at all. So all I can take from that is the reason why he's higher than everybody else is the bonus xp from Charisma.

 

And if you want to wonder about developers creating dump stats, you have to look no further than this board you're posting on and the Pillars of Eternity feedback with characters having two dump stats. Especially ranged characters.

[Cantousent]

Does anyone know how a noob like me can change the marching order?

 

Also, I intentionally spread out my skills as best I could in order to keep people the level disparity at a minimum.  I think something far worse than the level disparity, however, is the fact that I don't want to take on new NPCs at this point.  I might do it anyway for RP reasons, but the game rewards carefully managing your skills.  That means that skills increasingly become like a jigsaw puzzle.  You might want to take that poor luckless bastard of a priest as a follower in the late game, but you can't spare the extra bullets he'll consume and you'll have to lose one of your specialists.  It's not you can't do it, it's that it doesn't make sense from a, dare I say, strategic point of view?  So, I'll plan my next run around picking up the priest next game.  Hell, if he weren't entirely worthless otherwise, I would have fostered Ralphy.  At least he's low enough level when you get him that you can pump a point into intel and basically get a tabula rasa.  I wish his attributes were better, but they're not so terrible you can't work with them.  Sadly, I needed a professional goon who could kick down a door for me right away.  Next run, I will shamelessly look up the NPC's and their starting skills and plan my exact NPC route in order to take specific people.  Since I don't think you can save on Supreme Jerk, that means I might actually stick with Ralphy rather than save/reload to toaster repair success.  If I give the kid a chance, he might actually shine.

 

Attributes are kind of messy.  They don't seem to do squat for non combat skills, but are supremely important in combat.  That means that attributes that don't do something directly for combat are devalued.  The exception is intel simply because it can yield the player more skills altogether, which means weapon skills also.  Of course, when your super skilled braniac goes last every combat round because he's blind, stiff, slow, and ugly, then the combat skill points have a lot of extra lifting to do.  That's my take, and I'm damned if I'm playtesting this puppy.

 

I hate not having dialogue options, but I also think it's too much to split dialogue skills into three separate sinks.  Just my thoughts.  Overall, I like the game quite a bit, but it exemplifies why I believe that per-use XP is bad.  It's either insufficient to be meaningful or it's significant and therefore has real impact on how you approach each incident.  Anyhow, I don't want to start the XP bloodwars in this thread, but that's my honest assessment of the game so far.  I don't know how far I have till I'm done, but I've been plugging away at it and I can't be *that* far.

[Gromnir]

 

without more info, your anecdote is less than enlightening. what skills does your high charisma ranger posses? as we noted above, the character we got with the charisma o' six has skills that do not get frequent use. based on our experience, a two or three point differential in charisma is less significant (far less significant) than skill choice insofar as xp gains is concerned. Gromnir is already at level 25/26, so your three additional levels is hardly a meaningful factor.

 

high charisma is a waste. is arguable that any charisma past 1 is a waste. charisma doesn't affect leadership area of effect, and it has less impact on xp gains than does skill choice.  in fact, with benefit o' game experience and some testing, we would feel confident in stating that charisma is less useful than is luck, and luck is not particular useful either. charisma is to attributes as barter is to skills. 

 

one wonders what the inxile developers were thinking when they created two dump attributes.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

4 skills. Alarm disarm, Kiss ass, Leadership and Assault Rifles. Alarm disarm is something that wasn't fully utilised in the first half of the game and only really comes into play in LA. Kiss Ass is not that much different to all the other dialogue skills. Leadership doesn't grant xp so it's a background skill. Assault Rifles is the last skill I took with my Leader. And that's it. No other skills at all. So all I can take from that is the reason why he's higher than everybody else is the bonus xp from Charisma.

 

And if you want to wonder about developers creating dump stats, you have to look no further than this board you're posting on and the Pillars of Eternity feedback with characters having two dump stats. Especially ranged characters.

 

*sigh*

 

first, poe is not analogous. luck and charisma is dump stats for any and all characters in wasteland 2. 

 

second, you still ain't providing feedback.... is much like your anecdotal ar examples that is based on one encounter wherein you use headshot poorly and make sweeping generalizations based on the outcome.  you indicated that your rangers who is lagging a whopping 1/2 to 1 level behind is having basement charisma, but you don't tell us what your leader's charisma is. btw, by the time we finished az, the characters who is getting the most xp boosting is demolitions, alarm disarm, and safe cracking... in that order... though our medic skill may be gaining.  our efficacy in combat has had our medic being underutilized.  regardless, we pointed out that our leader has non combat skill o' hard arse and leadership and is lagging behind rangers with charisma of three and four. your leader gots alarm, but you not seem to think this difference is meaningful? is the ad hoc skills that make the difference. chuckle. 

 

is like pulling teeth to get you to actual provide relevant details. sheesh.

 

to cant,

 

" Of course, when your super skilled braniac goes last every combat round because he's blind, stiff, slow, and ugly, then the combat skill points have a lot of extra lifting to do."

 

we wanted one ranger with a 10 in int, so we made that ranger a sniper. high ap for a sniper is not all that necessary in our experience-- between seven and nine ap is more than enough. recognizing the near worthlessness o' charisma, our revised smarty sniper would look like this: co 3, lu 1, aw 7, st 1, sp 5, int 10, ch 1. start off with 8 ap and ci of 14. add one point to coordination and three to awareness, and by level 40 you got 9 ap and 17 ci. with the engagement ring trinkets, this build will be having 8 ap and a ci o' 20... and excessive skill points. oh, sure, we can build a better sniper w/o an int o' 10, but this is a viable sniper build.

 

aside: another change we would make is that we would give our brawler (or any melee ranger) computer science from the start. sure, it would have overlap with rose, but having a bruising damage sink who is also able to disarm robots would make him more efficacious, and we suspect that he/she would gets a considerable number o' additional computer skill checks to be boosting xp. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[Hiro Protagonist II]

*sigh*

 

first, poe is not analogous. luck and charisma is dump stats for any and all characters in wasteland 2. 

 

second, you still ain't providing feedback.... is much like your anecdotal ar examples that is based on one encounter wherein you use headshot poorly and make sweeping generalizations based on the outcome.  you indicated that your rangers who is lagging a whopping 1/2 to 1 level behind is having basement charisma, but you don't tell us what your leader's charisma is. btw, by the time we finished az, the characters who is getting the most xp boosting is demolitions, alarm disarm, and safe cracking... in that order... though our medic skill may be gaining.  our efficacy in combat has had our medic being underutilized.  regardless, we pointed out that our leader has non combat skill o' hard arse and leadership and is lagging behind rangers with charisma of three and four. your leader gots alarm, but you not seem to think this difference is meaningful? is the ad hoc skills that make the difference. chuckle. 

 

is like pulling teeth to get you to actual provide relevant details. sheesh.

 

to cant,

 

" Of course, when your super skilled braniac goes last every combat round because he's blind, stiff, slow, and ugly, then the combat skill points have a lot of extra lifting to do."

 

we wanted one ranger with a 10 in int, so we made that ranger a sniper. high ap for a sniper is not all that necessary in our experience-- between seven and nine ap is more than enough. recognizing the near worthlessness o' charisma, our revised smarty sniper would look like this: co 3, lu 1, aw 7, st 1, sp 5, int 10, ch 1. start off with 8 ap and ci of 14. add one point to coordination and three to awareness, and by level 40 you got 9 ap and 17 ci. with the engagement ring trinkets, this build will be having 8 ap and a ci o' 20... and excessive skill points. oh, sure, we can build a better sniper w/o an int o' 10, but this is a viable sniper build.

 

aside: another change we would make is that we would give our brawler (or any melee ranger) computer science from the start. sure, it would have overlap with rose, but having a bruising damage sink who is also able to disarm robots would make him more efficacious, and we suspect that he/she would gets a considerable number o' additional computer skill checks to be boosting xp. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Rather obtuse and evasive of you Gromnir. You're also providing anecdotal play from your game. And you don't provide any screen shots at all to back up your anecdotal gameplay.

 

So what difference have you come across that headshots are better than energy weapons against enemies in LA? If you're going to counter my claims, then at least show some things like your own gameplay with screen shots with headshots and damage compared to Energy Weapons. I have yet to see any examples of people's gameplay in LA in this thread that shows a rundown with an encounter with headshots and Energy weapons. At least I gave an example with my gameplay. How about backing up what you're saying with actual screen shots. I'd like to see your gameplay with headshots and energy weapons.

 

You also miss the point by a mile with my leader with alarm disarming. I said there was hardly any alarm disarming in AZ and with his Kiss Ass skill, it wouldn't have mattered compared to my other characters with the other dialogue skills. If anything, my leader should be near the bottom and not out-levelling everyone else. Because there wasn't many alarms to disarm compared to locks/traps/safes. I have no idea where you think I said alarms made a difference. I didn't.

 

As to my Leaders Charisma, he has 8. He also has 60 kills as of Angel Oracle which I'm up to at the moment. Compare that to my best character who has the most kills with 129, the lock picking and safecracking skills and opened every safe and lock in AZ as well as up to where I am now, and used Smart Ass up to finishing Rail Nomads, it doesn't make any sense.

 

How does my leader who has less than half the kills of my best character, has hardly used the Alarm Disarming skill in AZ be One and a half levels higher than him? An explanation would be nice. As I said, my leader only has 4 skills. Assault Rifles, Kiss Ass, Leadership (which to my knowledge seems to be a passive ability) and Alarm Disarming. That's it.

 

I also have another character with 76 kills, has Assault Rifle, toaster, mechanical repair, demolitions and weaponsmithing. Has opened every toaster, has disarmed every landmine, and repaired everything that needs to be repaired and he's also behind my leader. And he has more kills than my leader. So how do you explain why my leader is the highest levelled character in my game?

 

And because he's levelling up faster than everyone else, this then keeps him competitive in battles and to max out his skills like Alarm Disarming and Kiss Ass which he's already done and Assault Rifles is getting up there as well. He's already the second highest in Assault Rifles now. He seems to be doing a fair bit of damage in combat (6746) now as that's been creeping up and has nearly passed the guy with 76 kills/Toaster/mechanical/demolitions/ guy (6859) but never seems to get the kill shot which is why he's still on 60.

 

But he's no where near the damage of my best guy (14,828) or Pizepi (9,607). So it's not damage that's making him go up faster otherwise my best guy and Pizepi would be in front by a mile. I can only put it down to Charisma must be doing something to keep him above everyone else because he's not doing much in the way of kills and alarm disarming. And there's not much Kiss Ass dialogue in the game.

 

Summary. Provide some screen shots of your gameplay where headshots were outclassing energy weapons against enemies in LA during an encounter as well as your character's levels and skills. I did with Rose's 10 points in AR and she was level 28 compared to Pizepi and Brother Thomas' weapon output. Explain why my Leader has out-levelled everyone when he should be at the bottom of the group. That would help.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Gromnir]

in a previous post you expressed that you would be dubious about claims even if they included screenies, so try to go easy on the hypocrisy... and there is no freaking need to respond further now that you has indeed provided the details we asked you to provide. you is comparing an 8 charisma character to characters with 1s and 2s in charisma?  after 30 levels you end up with 1 level o' disparity with a seven point charisma gap? you is freaking proving our point about the uselessness o' charisma without realizing it.

 

and providing kill totals for your leader in the context o' xp is only useful to further undercut your argument. combat xp is the one kinda xp that is divided evenly regardless o' the contributions you make in combat. we will let you puzzle out the why.

 

*snort*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

in a previous post you expressed that you would be dubious about claims even if they included screenies, so try to go easy on the hypocrisy... and there is no freaking need to respond further now that you has indeed provided the details we asked you to provide. you is comparing an 8 charisma character to characters with 1s and 2s in charisma?  after 30 levels you end up with 1 level o' disparity with a seven point charisma gap? you is freaking proving our point about the uselessness o' charisma without realizing it.

 

and providing kill totals for your leader in the context o' xp is only useful to further undercut your argument. combat xp is the one kinda xp that is divided evenly regardless o' the contributions you make in combat. we will let you puzzle out the why.

 

*snort*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

At least quote me where I said that because that's not what I said. But it's the usual tactic I expect from you Gromnir. Obtuse and evasive. And it's your usual tactic of claiming things and not backing up what you say. I ask for screen shots and you make up stuff that I never said. If I did say that. you would have quoted me. Funny how you didn't actually quote me in any of my posts. You like to go on the attack when others provide screen shots and information, but when others call you out, you make up excuses.

 

And it's at least a level and a half from my best guy and over 2 levels from nearly everyone else in my party. And that gap is widening. I'm guessing in another 10 levels, he's going to be about 3 or 4 levels higher compared to the rest of my party. And due to him levelling up faster, it means more skills to allocate and he's doing a fair amount of damage. So it's not totally useless.

 

Also, I know all about combat xp and how it's worked out. I was stating a rhetorical in that combat has nothing to do with his levelling up faster. It does show he does contribute to combat which is what I was showing. I know that's hard for you to grasp those rhetoricals.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Phew!

 

After 80+ hours I finally made it!

Passing level 30, and a fantastic sniper rifle near some God Militia execution encounter turned things around for me.

After having solved Rodia and Angel Oracle almost non-bloodily, and except missing that cannibalism, I reckon they turned out alright.

In California I changed all combat to x3 times the normal speed, and it has saved me hours - just a little protip there - since combat can be a bit tedious.

 

Reaching Hollywood, I began to suffer from weird bug headaches, though. I tried to do a peaceful playthrough, but it was really hard.

I did all mini quests in town, and soonish, I killed Heidi's bodyguard and cleaned out that salt lab in those sewers, and then freed a girl there and returned to the cemetery.

I sided with Veronica, and then I took with me some brother and did the gauntlet and reached the Bastion.

There, I managed to find out who was the Broken Man and sided with him for Veronica's sake.

I also tried to side with those wanting me to free the Penitents, but that quest was bugged.

I helped the Mayweather wife and thus I helped McNade usurp the God Milita throne.

So, I got the key to the radio tower and there I found the final sacks of zeolite. I already had two after some Scorpitron encounter and some execution scene, IIRC.

 

I went back to Hollywood, and Veronica was reunited with McNade. Now, she wanted me to get the votes for her for that HCC meeting. I had already done all those min-quests, so it was easy - I did one extra for Rambeau too.

I had five of them, my quest log said, now it's time to vote.

But, sadly, when I speak to Veronica, the convo forces me to answer "no" to having enough votes. So, big bug there.

I went up and told Heidi about veronica instead just to get some xp, and then I left town.

 

I upgraded the rad suits, went over to Dogan, killed the baddies there, took the chopper back, all the long having a fantastic puppy by my side (Thanks, George!).

And there I did the right thing and sacrificed our muscle boy from the Levelupe mines. Well, bye., bye, lovely Rose too, and Lex, so, it was only us original four left.

 

It will take some time before I'll replay this game, so it's an uninstall for now, thanks for the memories, InXile, and the many laughs!

 

Master Sergeant and the big black **** scene is pure gold alone.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Keyrock is absolutely right btw - the second act is pretty much better. There's much more interesting intrigues and non-violent solutions to pretty cool stuff.

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Gromnir]

you are insane. 1.5 levels disparity is gained when giving a high yield skill AND allocating 6-7 more attribute points into charisma? and you do not see that as useless? who would make that trade? would anybody dump 6-7 additional points into charisma to gain 1.5 extra levels after every 30 levels gained? you is bug nut crazy if that is what you is selling. charisma modifies two features: 1) it boosts area of effect on the accuracy bonus for leadership (snort) and, 2) it gives a small xp bonus that is ultimately insignificant w/o giving your charisma jockey a high use skill. am thinking we not need try very hard to get a consensus on the uselessness o' your suggestion.

 

we know for a fact that a 2 point charisma difference is not enough to bridge the xp gulf between a player with leadership, hard arse and shotguns v. any build with frequent use skills that provide individual xp gains.  however, for the sake of argument, let us call it a call it a given that for every 6 additional charisma points you give to a ranger, you will see an additional level earned every 25 levels.  this is an extreme generous given based on your example.  now, who in their right freaking mind would suggest that 6 points placed into charisma, an otherwise useless attribute, would be gaining usefulness 'cause o' the 1.5 skill level payoff you describe? possibly vol. congrats.

 

...

 

amazing. you didn't think the 6-7 additional points you dumped into charisma were worth noting, but you have the temerity to call us evasive?  you suggest that 6-7 points o' otherwise wasted charisma is a useful spending of attribute points when the pay-off, when coupled with a high-output skill, is 1.5 additional leveling opportunities after THIRTY leveling opportunities?  and you call us obtuse? you want screenies?  HA! scroll back up and read your own posts. your suspicion was stated quite effective.  why on earth would we bother with screenies or youtube when you made it clear that you  "can only go off my gameplay."

 

HA Good Fun!

 

ps we see you didn't respond to our observation about how your leader's lagging combat efficacy hurt your argument. evasive?

Edited November 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[Enoch]

For what it's worth, my Leadership character has Lockpick and a 5-CHA advantage over my 10-INT guy with Demolitions and all the Ass skills (well, his investment in Smart ended when I got Pizepi, but I still use him if a check is low enough that he qualifies), and the 10-INT guy is slightly ahead, XP-wise.  (They're both about 2 levels ahead of my most-lagging character, whose non-combat skills are Perception and Weaponsmith.)

 

It's not totally useless, but it seems that the value is quite poor. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Enoch

[Gromnir]

For what it's worth, my Leadership character has Lockpick and a 5-CHA advantage over my 10-INT guy with Demolitions and all the Ass skills (well, his investment in Smart ended when I got Pizepi, but I still use him if a check is low enough that he qualifies), and the 10-INT guy is slightly ahead, XP-wise.  (They're both about 2 levels ahead of my most-lagging character, whose non-combat skills are Perception and Weaponsmith.)

 we don't get much juice per squeeze with the speech skills, but we can't stand missing a potential dialogue option 'cause o' insufficient points. speech skills is a priority for us.  there is an ag center dialog that we missed 'cause it required a freaking smart ass of 6. *grumble* we were also surprised (a smidgen) by the fact that we appear to be having more safecrack opportunities than lockpick. is not a huge disparity, but is noticeable. the occasional minefield and plethora o' disarm opportunities has, so far, made demolitions the clear Win skill insofar as xp rewards is concerned. and while alarm disarm were a poor skill choice for ag center (slight better for our highpool run), it has gotten progressive better henceforth.  regardless, it seems obvious to us that skill choice is more meaningful than than the charisma bonus.  the number o' charisma points you need to makes the xp boost meaningful is prohibitive. what relegates the charisma boost to utter uselessness is that level boost benefits develop late in the game, when those extra skill points and con points is less important. is same reason why it is stoopid to boost intelligence late. haven't played since we finished az, but at level 25/26, we is already seeing that we is soon gonna be running out of meaningful uses for skill points. every skill point is golden at level 4... at level 40 we suspect we will have more than a few unused points... or we will be throwing points into barter.

 

proviso: if we could imagine high charisma brawler build into existence, that might be a tiny bit different as brawlers get meaningful combat boosts from their levels.

 

aside: the monocle enoch mentioned earlier is a bug/quirk that has been around for awhile, but we only ever found one character type that genuine got use from it: the blunt weapons melee ranger. the ci cost is extreme, so we can't envision giving the trinket to a brawler who only attacks opponents in the narrow corridor direct in front o' his/her self. pretty much any ranged character is hurt more than is helped by the monocle. on the other hand, a blunt weapon expert can attack diagonal, which turns the monocle wearing blunt weapons ranger into the 300 at thermopylae. slight hyperbole? nevertheless, put your blunt basher in a defensive position and watch folks try and get past him. is amusing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[Enoch]

Hey, look, a new patch!

 

Relevant to the current discussion, one of the fixes is that it "corrected the Leadership hit-chance bonus." 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Enoch

[Gromnir]

Hey, look, a new patch!

 

Relevant to the current discussion, one of the fixes is that it "corrected the Leadership hit-chance bonus." 

am wondering what that means. hopefully it corrects so that we get 2% per level o' leadership rather than simply correcting the in-game description so that it matches the 1% we is actual getting.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

you are insane. 1.5 levels disparity is gained when giving a high yield skill AND allocating 6-7 more attribute points into charisma? and you do not see that as useless? who would make that trade? would anybody dump 6-7 additional points into charisma to gain 1.5 extra levels after every 30 levels gained? you is bug nut crazy if that is what you is selling. charisma modifies two features: 1) it boosts area of effect on the accuracy bonus for leadership (snort) and, 2) it gives a small xp bonus that is ultimately insignificant w/o giving your charisma jockey a high use skill. am thinking we not need try very hard to get a consensus on the uselessness o' your suggestion.

 

we know for a fact that a 2 point charisma difference is not enough to bridge the xp gulf between a player with leadership, hard arse and shotguns v. any build with frequent use skills that provide individual xp gains.  however, for the sake of argument, let us call it a call it a given that for every 6 additional charisma points you give to a ranger, you will see an additional level earned every 25 levels.  this is an extreme generous given based on your example.  now, who in their right freaking mind would suggest that 6 points placed into charisma, an otherwise useless attribute, would be gaining usefulness 'cause o' the 1.5 skill level payoff you describe? possibly vol. congrats.

 

...

 

amazing. you didn't think the 6-7 additional points you dumped into charisma were worth noting, but you have the temerity to call us evasive?  you suggest that 6-7 points o' otherwise wasted charisma is a useful spending of attribute points when the pay-off, when coupled with a high-output skill, is 1.5 additional leveling opportunities after THIRTY leveling opportunities?  and you call us obtuse? you want screenies?  HA! scroll back up and read your own posts. your suspicion was stated quite effective.  why on earth would we bother with screenies or youtube when you made it clear that you  "can only go off my gameplay."

 

HA Good Fun!

 

ps we see you didn't respond to our observation about how your leader's lagging combat efficacy hurt your argument. evasive?

 

More obtuseness and evasiveness Gromnir. I'm not the insane one that makes up stories. That's what you're good at.

 

1.5 levels is not the disparity. You're taking one character and using that as the standard with all my party members. FALSE. My best character is on level 29 while my Leader has already been ploughing through level 31 for quite some time and is very close to 32. He'll hit level 32 shortly. And it's not 1.5 levels as I keep telling you but you seem to be taking that as all party members. Weak argument is weak. I see why you would be saying that to help your own argument. He's 2-3 levels higher than other party members as well. He also has the highest hit points of any character in my party. So now he's become the tank and can take quite a lot of damage as well as having the second highest in the Assault Rifle skill after Rose.

 

Remember what it's like to have a character that's a couple or few levels higher than the rest of the party? That's what my Leader is doing. And the gap is widening. Which also means he gets more skill points by levelling faster. And I'm not selling anything. I'm just telling what my gameplay is like. And you're now misrepresenting what I'm saying which is what you've been doing for these past few quotes and then trying to make an argument against it? So why don't you make the argument against the characters who are 3 levels behind my leader? No, that would be too hard.

 

So where's those screen shots Gromnir? Are you going to back up your claims or are you going to make those anecdotes without any proof. Ah your hypocrisy is funny to see. You claim that I'm a hypocrite but when I call you out, you dodge and weave and try and avoid any proof for you to show. Keep going on those anecdotes.. Also, what can I go off other than my gameplay? And I provide screen shots to back up my claims? Come on Gromnir, posts those screen shots and show us your gameplay and back up your claims. Or are you going to continue to be a hypocrite.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Enoch]

I may have missed something here, but what exactly is a screenshot supposed to prove?  Do you think Gromnir is lying about what he's seeing in the game?  Not sure why anybody would bother doing that. 

[Gromnir]

I may have missed something here, but what exactly is a screenshot supposed to prove?  Do you think Gromnir is lying about what he's seeing in the game?  Not sure why anybody would bother doing that. 

he is a strange puppy. one wonders why he keeps doing obfuscation with numbers. we don't care what his best character is, so why would we compare. he gave us levels and charisma scores for 3 characters. based on his description, we note that the extra 6 points got him 1.5 levels further than the character who were having 2 charisma. hell, is like pulling teeth with him to get relevant information as it is. all the rest o' his comments is noise. 6 extra charisma points managed to get him 1.5 extra levels after 30 leveling opportunities. complete and utter waste. hell, he gave us combat and kill numbers too, and that only further sabotaged his own position regarding the usefulness o' charisma. weird.

 

now, if leadership is working as it is described, that does make a difference, but the leveling bonus for charisma, given the cost, is pathetic: useless.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I may have missed something here, but what exactly is a screenshot supposed to prove?  Do you think Gromnir is lying about what he's seeing in the game?  Not sure why anybody would bother doing that. 

 

So you take people's anecdotes over any screen shots that might prove what they are saying?

[Gromnir]

 

I may have missed something here, but what exactly is a screenshot supposed to prove?  Do you think Gromnir is lying about what he's seeing in the game?  Not sure why anybody would bother doing that. 

 

So you take people's anecdotes over any screen shots that might prove what they are saying?

 

your suspicion is what is strange. would cost us little to post screenies at this point, but your obfuscation in your postings and your peculiar suspicion o' others only succeeds in making us see you as more concerned with promoting a childish agenda than you is with discussing actual issues. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

he is a strange puppy. one wonders why he keeps doing obfuscation with numbers. we don't care what his best character is, so why would we compare. he gave us levels and charisma scores for 3 characters. based on his description, we note that the extra 6 points got him 1.5 levels further than the character who were having 2 charisma. hell, is like pulling teeth with him to get relevant information as it is. all the rest o' his comments is noise. 6 extra charisma points managed to get him 1.5 extra levels after 30 leveling opportunities. complete and utter waste. hell, he gave us combat and kill numbers too, and that only further sabotaged his own position regarding the usefulness o' charisma. weird.

 

now, if leadership is working as it is described, that does make a difference, but the leveling bonus for charisma, given the cost, is pathetic: useless.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Ah Gromnir, the obtuse and evasive hypocrite who obfuscates all over the place. You're the one who's obfuscating. No Gromnir, I never said that. I know it's easy for you to make up stories and not actually quote anything I say. But please continue with your made up stories. You're still going on about 1.5 levels and basing it on my entire party which is not true. It's at least 1.5 to 3 levels when you get to level 30 for me. And it's at least 2-4 levels depending on which character you compare to in my party at different times of levelling. I imagine it will be close to 4-6 levels by level 40 near the end of the game but I'll have to wait and see.

 

So you think a character that's 4-6 levels higher than the rest of your party near the end of the game is useless? *chuckles*

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

your suspicion is what is strange. would cost us little to post screenies at this point, but your obfuscation in your postings and your peculiar suspicion o' others only succeeds in making us see you as more concerned with promoting a childish agenda than you is with discussing actual issues. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnnir I can back up my claims that it's 2-4 levels at different times of levelling and not 1.5 compared to the rest of my party that you claim. How about backing up your claims? No, I didn't think so. So yes, my suspicions isn't strange at all when you make up stories.

 

For Enoch, it's anecdotes all the way!

 

When called out to back up your claims, you seem that the only way for you to rebut my points is call me childish? LOL. Okay Gromnir.

[Gromnir]

 

he is a strange puppy. one wonders why he keeps doing obfuscation with numbers. we don't care what his best character is, so why would we compare. he gave us levels and charisma scores for 3 characters. based on his description, we note that the extra 6 points got him 1.5 levels further than the character who were having 2 charisma. hell, is like pulling teeth with him to get relevant information as it is. all the rest o' his comments is noise. 6 extra charisma points managed to get him 1.5 extra levels after 30 leveling opportunities. complete and utter waste. hell, he gave us combat and kill numbers too, and that only further sabotaged his own position regarding the usefulness o' charisma. weird.

 

now, if leadership is working as it is described, that does make a difference, but the leveling bonus for charisma, given the cost, is pathetic: useless.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Ah Gromnir, the obtuse and evasive hypocrite who obfuscates all over the place. You're the one who's obfuscating. No Gromnir, I never said that. I know it's easy for you to make up stories and not actually quote anything I say. But please continue with your made up stories. You're still going on about 1.5 levels and basing it on my entire party which is not true. It's at least 1.5 to 3 levels when you get to level 30 for me. And it's at least 2-4 levels depending on which character you compare to in my party at different times of levelling. I imagine it will be close to 4-6 levels by level 40 near the end of the game but I'll have to wait and see.

 

So you think a character that's 4-6 levels higher than the rest of your party near the end of the game is useless? *chuckles*

 

 

 

...

 

am waiting for him to recognize, but perhaps is pointless. 30 levels to get a 1.5-2 level spread? is somebody gonna point out to this joker how funny it is that he keeps wanting to compare level disparity between his charisma monkey and his "best character"?  is as if he don't realize what he is posting.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

am waiting for him to recognize, but perhaps is pointless. 30 levels to get a 1.5-2 level spread? is somebody gonna point out to this joker how funny it is that he keeps wanting to compare level disparity between his charisma monkey and his "best character"?  is as if he don't realize what he is posting.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

More made up stories. It's not 1-5-2 level spread over all the party. Must be something wrong with Gromnir's reading. But Gromnir is part and parcel of being obtuse, evasiveness and obfuscation. But it's good to see he's gone off his 1.5 argument. Now if he can recgonise the 1.5-3 and 2-4 level spread at level 30 with different party members at different times of levelling, then we're all okay.

 

Oh and I can back up my claims with screen shots of what I'm talking about. But according to the forum and people like Gromnir and Enoch, screen shots don't prove anything. LOL.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Gromnir]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68953-wasteland-2/?p=1532006

 

you are the guy who said your rangers were at 28 and 29 when you were just hitting 30 with your charisma monkey. you wanna change story a bit to make a nonsense point? hey, a couple more posts from now will have you predicting a 10 level gap by the time you hit level 40 with your charisma monkey. 

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68953-wasteland-2/?p=1532006

 

you are the guy who said your rangers were at 28 and 29 when you were just hitting 30 with your charisma monkey. you wanna change story a bit to make a nonsense point? hey, a couple more posts from now will have you predicting a 10 level gap by the time you hit level 40 with your charisma monkey. 

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

And now he's more than halfway through level 31 while one is still on level 28 and most are still on 29. It's become a 2-3 point spread, closing on 4 with my lowest levelled party member.

[Gromnir]

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68953-wasteland-2/?p=1532006

 

you are the guy who said your rangers were at 28 and 29 when you were just hitting 30 with your charisma monkey. you wanna change story a bit to make a nonsense point? hey, a couple more posts from now will have you predicting a 10 level gap by the time you hit level 40 with your charisma monkey. 

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

And now he's more than halfway through level 31 while one is still on level 28 and most are still on 29. It's become a 2-3 point spread, closing on 4 with my lowest levelled party member.

 

which don't change at all that at level 30 you had a 1-2 level spread advantage when you had only just reached level 30... and calling it two levels is generous based on your description.

 

again, 'cause you don't recall your own posts:

 

"He hit level 30 on that encounter in Santa Monica and everyone else is at the end of level 28 or mostly on level 29 including Pizepi."

 

oh sure, you can change stuff, be evasive and obfuscate, but you is gonna keep running into what you posted earlier. is too late to edit old posts. too bad, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

which don't change at all that at level 30 you had a 1-2 level spread advantage when you had only just reached level 30... and calling it two levels is generous based on your description.

 

again, 'cause you don't recall your own posts:

 

"He hit level 30 on that encounter in Santa Monica and everyone else is at the end of level 28 or mostly on level 29 including Pizepi."

 

oh sure, you can change stuff, be evasive and obfuscate, but you is gonna keep running into what you posted earlier. is too late to edit old posts. too bad, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Everyone should have been most as I didn't check all characters as I only glanced at them. Put it down to being euphoric at winning easily at what was a hard encounter. I've now gone back to that previous save and noticed my lowest level character is about 1/2-3/4 on 27 which is the Higgins character who was out of the battle. It's why I didn't pick up on it before. The characters on level 28 is nearing 3/4 on level 28. Pizepi hit level 29. At any case, my point still stands. There's up to a  3 level spread at level 30. And that point spread is increasing.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II