Is running away from fights possible? Wilderness encounter placement? Enemy Morale?

[Stun]

Great, so the one impressive thing about BG1 isn't even from BG1... It's still just a minor detail, as almost no-submap has multiple exits in BG1 so they are useless for running away anyways.

 

I was stuck in combat mode even after webbing the remaining assassins and running away into one of the tombs and I've run far enough away from enemies to lose sight of them for what would be over 30 seconds if I wasn't playing the game on higher than intended speed.

Are you talking about the Amazon Bounty-Hunter chicks encounter?

 

Yeah, that battle is particularly nasty. In fact, that whole map is pretty hard. They put the exit of the Nashkell mines there, which means, your average gamer is probably not going to be running a party of characters that is much higher than 3rd or 4th level, Yet that map contains encounters of the same difficulty as the Cloakwood mines, which is chapter 4 material.... which is designed for a 5th-6th level party (That map has a 10th level mage with 2 mustard Jelly pets; and the Amazon chicks are the same level as Drasus and his gang, who guard the entrance of the Cloakwood mines. Addionally, the far southern portion of that map has Ankegs.) That map will kick a low level party's ass. My advice if you're low level: Get the hell out of there and come back when you're 6th or 7th level.

 

But man, the rewards.... If a party of 3rd level characters DOES manage to tough that map out, they'll go up a level...possibly 2, putting them in great position for taking on the Bandit camp. (chapter 3).

 

Just my off-topic 2 cents.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Stun

[Sensuki]

There's a quote from way back (probably a year ago now) about the game's combat state being very hard to break. I guess the reason is if you could run away from a fight, you would technically be able to abuse the out of combat stamina regeneration.

 

Eg:

 

Fight. O drats dis be hard -> Run away. Hath runneth far enough away to break combat state -> Go back with full Stamina after ~10 seconds.

 

The worst design I ever saw regarding this was probably Neverwinter Nights 1, where you could easily break the combat state, especially at the endgame, all it required was closing a door, sitting down to rest and going back in at full health while that Paladin chick (forget her name) was still hurt.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

The Amazons were cool.

One of my favorite encounters in BG1 is the Doomsayer. And I love the Ogre sprite. "Me will crush you! Crush you to GOO!"

Oh, and morale is a neat thing in BG. Enemies and party members have individual values for morale. Three of them: morale, breaking point and recovery time. For companions, morale is lowered for each death of a party member.

[Lephys]

There's a quote from way back (probably a year ago now) about the game's combat state being very hard to break. I guess the reason is if you could run away from a fight, you would technically be able to abuse the out of combat stamina regeneration.

 

Eg:

 

Fight. O drats dis be hard -> Run away. Hath runneth far enough away to break combat state -> Go back with full Stamina after ~10 seconds.

Wouldn't the enemies regenerate their stamina, due to their non-combat state, as well? And wouldn't your Health still be decreased, unless you used up your limited camping supplies to rest just to return to the same fight?

 

It's not that I don't think it should be hard to escape from a fight. But... it just seems unnecessary to make sure it's arbitrarily difficult to do so, just so that no one could ever possibly maybe heal up and come back.

 

Of course, also, if you go off and camp, maybe the foes go to their own camp and bring back replacement troops. It would really depend on what the foe was (wolves probably wouldn't do that, but then... maybe there are just randomly roving wolves in the forest, and you always deal with that, instead of just specifically placed wolf pack fights, *shrug*).

[Valorian]

They certainly should regenerate stamina if that happens, but you'd be able to rest, would they be able to do the same? Having your per rest abilities available (again) is a considerable advantage.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

They certainly should regenerate stamina if that happens, but you'd be able to rest, would they be able to do the same? Having your per rest abilities available (again) is a considerable advantage.

 

Wouldn't that be a long form of reloading? Battle too difficult. run away. rest, heal up and get powers back. enemies heal up and get all their powers back. Go into battle again. run away if battle too difficult. rinse and repeat.

[Valorian]

Yes. Enemies can't reload, but they could be allowed to rest, which would alleviate this problem. That's why I agree it should be hard to simply run away from combat. 

[rjshae]

 

There's a quote from way back (probably a year ago now) about the game's combat state being very hard to break. I guess the reason is if you could run away from a fight, you would technically be able to abuse the out of combat stamina regeneration.

 

Eg:

 

Fight. O drats dis be hard -> Run away. Hath runneth far enough away to break combat state -> Go back with full Stamina after ~10 seconds.

Wouldn't the enemies regenerate their stamina, due to their non-combat state, as well? And wouldn't your Health still be decreased, unless you used up your limited camping supplies to rest just to return to the same fight?

 

It's not that I don't think it should be hard to escape from a fight. But... it just seems unnecessary to make sure it's arbitrarily difficult to do so, just so that no one could ever possibly maybe heal up and come back.

 

Of course, also, if you go off and camp, maybe the foes go to their own camp and bring back replacement troops. It would really depend on what the foe was (wolves probably wouldn't do that, but then... maybe there are just randomly roving wolves in the forest, and you always deal with that, instead of just specifically placed wolf pack fights, *shrug*).

 

If the game is built with that in mind, then yes. Allowing an escape from combat would add to the level of verisimilitude, but would require additional coding and event handling.

 

What they might be able to implement relatively easy is: (1) the surviving enemies recover their stamina and any per combat abilities, and (2) the encounter difficulty is bumped up by one step. The latter is to simulate the effect of drawing upon available reinforcements.

[Lephys]

I think whatever you get to do, they should get to do. If you rest, they should get to rest. Maybe if you've killed anything (actually killed, not just de-Stamina'd), it should only "come back" (or be replaced/reinforced) under specific circumstances. If you kill 5 out of 10 wolves in a pack, then flee, you shouldn't come back to find 10 wolves. They're not going to take their fallen brethren to some Wolf Temple and resurrect them, or go hire some other wolves or raise new cubs in like... 8 hours.

 

But, anywho. The thing is, there'll still be advantages to running away, then re-confronting an encounter, even without resting.

 

You'll get your per-encounter abilities back. You'll go back to full stamina (maybe you were getting unluckily hammered by crits or crazy "flukes" very quickly in combat, so the problem wasn't so much that your whole party is super low on Health, but that they were all about to be "knocked out" (0 Stamina), thus resulting in a game over because you simply couldn't finish the fight. So, you run away, a little lower on resources, but you come back to try again with a fresh, full set of Stamina. Maybe this time you handle things better.

 

Plus, the enemies will still have their Health damage as long as you do. So, you can always re-enter combat in a different formation, and use different tactics to compensate for the altered factors this time around. Focus-fire on the low-Health enemy (even if he has full Stamina again), etc.

 

Sure, if it's just "Ahh, we're all about to die, let us flee!", then there aren't many advantages to fleeing, other than "we didn't all die! yay!". However, there are plenty of circumstances under which there ARE advantages to fleeing, even without resting in between confrontations.

 

Also... this makes me wonder how fleeing might work with any number of downed (unconscious but not dead) party members. Can people carry them out of combat? If you just run off, will the enemy just go finish off the grounded people? Is it even functionally possible to flee from combat with anyone downed?

[Stun]

Who's they? Should all enemy-types have the exact same Biological functions as your party?

 

I don't want that. It won't be the least bit believable. Undead, for example, should never "rest when you do". Ditto with automations (if they're part of the Bestiary)

 

Although I am open to the idea, if you're playing on normal, for enemies to suffer from the same "maimed" status that your party members receive when they fall in battle. Because at least *that* opens up believable retreat/pacifist role-play options beyond simply being a ham-fisted tool to maintain "Balance!"

Edited May 9, 2014 by Stun

[Lephys]

Who's they? Should all enemy-types have the exact same Biological functions as your party?

 

I don't want that. It won't be the least bit believable. Undead, for example, should never "rest when you do". Ditto with automations (if they're part of the Bestiary)

I don't disagree. I acknowledged the existence of exceptions (the wolf example). I apologize for not expressly stating that that was meant to acknowledge that not all foes will be subject to all the same factors. I should've done so. In general, though, anything that can and would feasibly rest (orcs, kobolds, etc.) shouldn't just stay up all night and/or not attempt to bandage their wounds or anything while your party sets up a triage facility for the night 100 meters away.

 

Even wolves, when it comes to healing, should "rest," in the abstract sense of the word. The real-life process of lying in bed for 3 months while your sword slashes heal up has been abstracted, in the game, to an 8-hour rest period. Thus, it stands to reason that anything else that could biologically recover from wounds should have the same abstraction of rest-healing. Again, though... exceptions. Wolves don't apply bandages and salves to themselves, so maybe they'd heal less overnight than Humanoids. Etc.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Lephys

[Stun]

Even wolves, when it comes to healing, should "rest," in the abstract sense of the word. The real-life process of lying in bed for 3 months while your sword slashes heal up has been abstracted, in the game, to an 8-hour rest period. Thus, it stands to reason that anything else that could biologically recover from wounds should have the same abstraction of rest-healing. Again, though... exceptions. Wolves don't apply bandages and salves to themselves, so maybe they'd heal less overnight than Humanoids. Etc.

hehe.

 

Wolf limps into a tavern.

 

Bartender: This is a tavern for people! What the hell are you doing here?

Wolf: (in a southern drawl) I'm lookin' for the man who shot my Paw.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Stun

[Lephys]

Hahaha...

[Sensuki]

What they might be able to implement relatively easy is: (1) the surviving enemies recover their stamina and any per combat abilities, and (2) the encounter difficulty is bumped up by one step. The latter is to simulate the effect of drawing upon available reinforcements.

As far as I know there is no additional encounter-based respawning implemented. If you run away from a mob, exit an area, rest and go back there will probably just be the remaining enemies that you left alive, rather than an encounter replenishment system.

 

Expected behaviour based on past IE titles is that when a fight is going sour, people just reload their quick save and try again. There will definitely not be any per-encounter difficulty toggling either.

 

The area designers may have implemented some special encounters, such as the ones found at back entrance to the Goblin Fortress in Icewind Dale 2, which had constantly spawning enemies based on shamans beating war drums. It would be interesting to hear about other tricks they've come up with for encounter design, but my guess is that most things will just be static monster placement on a per-difficulty setting basis.

 

I also forgot to mention that one of the reasons the combat state is probably hard to break is ranged combat kiting. That's probably more important than stamina regeneration. Enter combat, fire off a volley, run away, exit combat -> rinse, repeat.

 

Enemy stamina regeneration kind of mitigates both of these things, but I think having enemies follow you is more realistic if anything.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Sensuki