Game Idea & Question of Development

[Osvir]

Hi!

So, I have this game idea pretty much fleshed out in my head and have begun sketching and drawing rules & mechanics for it. I won't go into that right now (or anytime soon, I think it's a pretty good idea. Let's leave it at that).

The Issue: I don't have the talent to create it.

Solution #1: Learn the skills to be able to create it.

Solution #2: Hire talent.

Now, I'm looking at Solution #2 a little bit extra here and this is what I am curious about. Partly because I see a golden opportunity in it and partly because I am somewhat lazy.

The Question:

How much does it cost to hire and/or briefly employ game developers? (artists, animators, programmers) I'd make sure a full pay according to their monthly wages would be paid for as long as they are part of the project. Is this a possible method to get game ideas created?

The Method:

Kickstarter. Of course.

1. A community develops a game idea, writes out rules, feedback on it (story), goes through it and builds a world around it. Passionate hobbyists with lots of concepts and ideas.
2. Talk with various developers "Hey, we're doing this thing on Kickstarter, we've got the game finished already all we need is for it to be put in an engine. You want in?". Let's say they all say yes (because it makes this example so much simpler).
3. Set the Kickstarter Funding Goals so that the developers get paid for their work (Community involved does not get paid).

Viable?

[Walsingham]

I definitely don't want to discourage you, but you need more than just an idea.

 

1) Take your idea, and make it clearly recognisable to anyone outside you and your mates. Pictures help. If you use words, the total speech should last no longer than 10 seconds.

 

2) What sorts of people are likely to care about this project? You will need to be sure you can activate lines of communication to them, and have enough credibility to get them talking.

 

3) Talk to the people who are likely to care about your project and write down what they like and don't like.

 

4) Turn what they like and don't like into a plan. Don't just assume it's what you started with.

 

5) Take your plan to some techies and have them say how hard it would be to build using the skills and kit that they already have access to.

 

6) Cost part 5.

 

7) Seek funding. Partly by talking to the people who care in part 3.

 

With the funding, commence work.

 

9) Other stuff, like marketing, testing, release, follow ups.

[Orogun01]

This is a template for a high concept, use it to pitch your idea to your investors and anyone else who is on board the project.

http://www.csc.kth.se/utbildning/kth/kurser/DH2640/grip08/HighConceptTemplate-Inl4.pdf

 

Some examples of what a high concept looks like:

http://robert-varga.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/golden-pot-High-Concept-Document.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32214869/Hulk-High-Concept

 

Some examples of budgeting:

 

Budgets:

Killzone 2 - ~$40-60 million

APB MMO - $50 million budget

Planetside 2 - $50 million budget

Budget:

10% marketing

8% testing

15% design

20% art

30% programming

Artists: $40,000 to $65,000

Animators: $45,000 to $70,000

Lead Artists / Animators: $65,000 to $80,000

Game Designers: $40,000 to $70,000

Creative Directors / Lead Designers: $45,000 to $90,000

Programmers: $50,000 to $90,000

Lead Programmers: $75,000 to 100,000

Technical Directors: $90,000 to $120,000

Audio Designers: $65,000 to $75,000

Music Composers / Musicians: $65,000 to $90,000

Video Game Testers: $25,000 to $45,000

Lead Game Testers: $40,000 to $60,000

PR Marketing: $50,000 to $85,000

[Walsingham]

Nice post, Orogun. What's the background on those figures. Just your experience?

[Orogun01]

Nice post, Orogun. What's the background on those figures. Just your experience?

Research done for a budgeting project I did a while back. 

Here are the sources I used:

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Most_expensive_video_games

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/167355/Game_Developer_reveals_2011_Game_Industry_Salary_Survey_results.php

 

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-video+game

http://www.emunix.emich.edu/~evett/GameProgramming/LectureNotes/Game-timeline.pdf

[Osvir]

The idea itself isn't the matter really, or how I should present the idea.

Hmm how to explain...

Obsidian used Kickstarter to fund Project Eternity. In other words, Obsidian (the Company), asked the people (the Community) "Hi. We, the Company, want to do this thing! You, the Community, want to see it happen? Fund!". What I am flirting with is the other way around. Basically: "Hi. We, the Community, want this thing to be made! Are you, the Company, willing to undertake this task if the project gets funded through Kickstarter?".

[Orogun01]

The idea itself isn't the matter really, or how I should present the idea.

 

Hmm how to explain...

 

Obsidian used Kickstarter to fund Project Eternity. In other words, Obsidian (the Company), asked the people (the Community) "Hi. We, the Company, want to do this thing! You, the Community, want to see it happen? Fund!". What I am flirting with is the other way around. Basically: "Hi. We, the Community, want this thing to be made! Are you, the Company, willing to undertake this task if the project gets funded through Kickstarter?".

Obsidian pitched the idea to the community, they had a high concept prepared for that pitch. Basically they treated the community as their publisher, I doubt that anyone will give you money to fund what sounds like a poor idea due to a poor presentation. The reverse is also true, if you have a vision then the best way to present it is through a high concept document entailing all aspects of the development cycle.

 

If what you otherwise meant to say is "Hey Obsidian, I have this great idea that you should make into a game" and expect it to materialize into a fully realized product; then I'm afraid no one will be able to help you. 

[Osvir]

 

The idea itself isn't the matter really, or how I should present the idea.

 

Hmm how to explain...

 

Obsidian used Kickstarter to fund Project Eternity. In other words, Obsidian (the Company), asked the people (the Community) "Hi. We, the Company, want to do this thing! You, the Community, want to see it happen? Fund!". What I am flirting with is the other way around. Basically: "Hi. We, the Community, want this thing to be made! Are you, the Company, willing to undertake this task if the project gets funded through Kickstarter?".

Obsidian pitched the idea to the community, they had a high concept prepared for that pitch. Basically they treated the community as their publisher, I doubt that anyone will give you money to fund what sounds like a poor idea due to a poor presentation. The reverse is also true, if you have a vision then the best way to present it is through a high concept document entailing all aspects of the development cycle.

 

If what you otherwise meant to say is "Hey Obsidian, I have this great idea that you should make into a game" and expect it to materialize into a fully realized product; then I'm afraid no one will be able to help you. 

Drop my revolutionising game idea that I'm not talking about for now. It's not a high concept yet, I only used that in this discussion not because I am hoping for it to materialize by itself but for the curiosity of the "Community Idea Discussion -> Pitch to Devs -> Kickstarter" question. Could this method be used to fund games or get visions to materialize?

 

Thank you for the documents and links by the way :D I read some of it but I'm working a lot and haven't had time to read through it all yet, but it's most intruiging I must say. I could use one of my other 4 more fleshed out game ideas in a pitch potentially.

 

What I am saying is, would it be possible to have a community to discuss ideas and fully realize it in a high concept and then pitch it to a developer? Step 1 is to discuss an idea with a community, step 2 would be to pitch it.

 

Another example, let's hypothetically say that Might No. 9 never got Kickstarted:

 

1. A community wants a new Megaman-ish game.

2. They discuss the game together and aspects of the game as much as possible (A High Concept)

3. Pitch their idea to various game developers "Hey! We are a community and we have discussed this game for quite some time. Here's the documents, concepts, rules & mechanics and 'blahdiblah'. Would you be willing to create it if a Kickstarter was successful and would you partake in the Kickstarter campaign (as proof of your collaboration~ a short introduction and confirming that they agree to develop game)?".

4a. IF yes: Kickstart the game (and if funded = development)

4a. IF no (got no time, not interested etc.): Ask another developer/Reform the idea.

 

Another concept of this creative community ideal (having nothing to do with gaming), for just some extra explanation, "Hey government! We, the Community, have discussed 'this and that idea' over here on these forums and want some change. Would you be willing to partake in this endeavor if [$] & amount of backers is reached?".

 

What this entire idea is meant to convey is to give "Power to the People". People asks of things to be done~ "We want this" or "We need this" instead of developers/authority figures making a Kickstarter with the questions a la "Do you want this?" or "Do you need this?". That deal is already done, the question is already answered. The only question that is of importance in this "business"-concept is "Who will develop it?".

 

Summary-ish: 

1. Community figures out what they want/need "We want this".

2. Question: "Who will develop it?".

3. Pitch to Developers.

 

Whilst currently it is:

1. Developers figures out what to ask.

2. Question: "Who wants this?"

3. Ask community (Pitch).

Edited November 21, 2013 by Osvir

[Orogun01]

To be honest I think you should do away with step one, unless that there is the rare case where a community is both knowledgeable and compromising. Because everyone will have a version of the game that is a little bit different and without anyone having the ultimate say so, it is bound to be snagged at every disagreement.

Aside from the concept the pitch should include proof that there is a target demographic that it is interested in the game, proof that the risk is minimal.

On the concept of your idea itself; of pitching to developers: There are small game companies that are struggling to come up with production work and have taken work outside of gaming just to keep afloat. The concept is probably a good fit for them who have the skills but lack the funding, as it gives them a sure thing.

[Osvir]

The concept is probably a good fit for them who have the skills but lack the funding, as it gives them a sure thing.

Or a sophisticated visionary design team that lacks skills and tools.

[Orogun01]

 

The concept is probably a good fit for them who have the skills but lack the funding, as it gives them a sure thing.

Or a sophisticated visionary design team that lacks skills and tools.

 

You mean a bunch idea guys?

[Osvir]

 

 

The concept is probably a good fit for them who have the skills but lack the funding, as it gives them a sure thing.

Or a sophisticated visionary design team that lacks skills and tools.

 

You mean a bunch idea guys?

Yes. But the information is also out there, so a bunch of idea guys could do the proper research of all costs included as well. What types of personell would be required, who to hire, priorities, set up a proper documentation on the development process and also present that "This is what would be required to make the game, apart from the funding".

 

Asset concepts. Materials.

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

The concept is probably a good fit for them who have the skills but lack the funding, as it gives them a sure thing.

Or a sophisticated visionary design team that lacks skills and tools.

 

You mean a bunch idea guys?

Yes. But the information is also out there, so a bunch of idea guys could do the proper research of all costs included as well. What types of personell would be required, who to hire, priorities, set up a proper documentation on the development process and also present that "This is what would be required to make the game, apart from the funding".

 

Asset concepts. Materials.

 

When you're pitching to a developer, the most important thing is an assurance from the community to fund and support the project. Because whatever projections they make will change based on the funds they have and their projected sales.

[Osvir]

 

 

 

 

The concept is probably a good fit for them who have the skills but lack the funding, as it gives them a sure thing.

Or a sophisticated visionary design team that lacks skills and tools.

 

You mean a bunch idea guys?

Yes. But the information is also out there, so a bunch of idea guys could do the proper research of all costs included as well. What types of personell would be required, who to hire, priorities, set up a proper documentation on the development process and also present that "This is what would be required to make the game, apart from the funding".

 

Asset concepts. Materials.

 

When you're pitching to a developer, the most important thing is an assurance from the community to fund and support the project. Because whatever projections they make will change based on the funds they have and their projected sales.

Of course. But supply and demand is also important. Say there's 50 people that envision this game on a forum, not very many but it's a start.

 

A) Community: Discuss and debate a game. Anyone can join in on the discussion, but there will be "milestones" of some sort.

- 1st: What type of game?

Let's say an RPG. Market this to "event" to various other forums and sites where appropriate (RPGWatch, RPGCodex, Obsidian, Bioware and so on). Get more people on board. Maybe the board rises to 100 active members. More demand.

 

- 2nd: What will be in it? What would it cost?

This is a bit 2-in-1. Everything, discuss lore, discuss mechanics, rules, classes, you name it. Kind of like a Kickstarter mentality, but before a Kickstarter is started. Updates that determine what gets in and what doesn't get in. Some sort of management just to not get stuck on 1 topic until eternity's end. Updates serve as "marketing" as well in a way. 

 

Costs: Community could research, mail to developers and marketing divisions. Ask them how much this and that would cost and how much time it would take. Get a number basically.

 

With that, pre-production done. Revise and polish before pitching to developers.

 

- 4rd: Pitch to Developers.

Get in touch with everyone. Let's say someone bites the idea and wants in. If they all say "No" or give feedback, polish the idea further and then pitch it.

 

B) Kickstarter

- So now you've got an idea, you've got a community, you've got a developer, all that's left to do is get funding and develop the game. There's already some willing to fund the game, but not everyone. But enough demand to see if there's more people willing to demand it.

 

Who says a dev couldn't just... you know... steal the free game idea?

 

A) Does it really matter? The community would mostly be made up of conceptual hobby artists (I would believe), people who fantasize and dream about a game they really want to see. The point with the community, as I see it, is to envision a game that will never be made, and if a developer team chooses to steal it to use it and make it. No loss.

 

B) Through Kickstarter, where a community is required, it might be shunned upon and it might even appear on journalistic sites as "Bad company! Bad company! But we really want this game!!" kind of. If an established developer team steals it and makes it outside of Kickstarter it's another deal in my opinion, kind of like saying "Thanks for making this awesome game idea for us! But we don't need you! Bye!".

 

Why no pay for the community workers?

Are we getting paid on the Obsidian forums? Nah. But we've made several fictional games that could potentially become awesome-est! I'm sure of it. So the potential for it exists. Lore, weapons, items, NPC's, companions, mechanics, rules and so on and so forth. Lots of people on this board could probably create an entire game by themselves in their minds, but can't express it with either Art Tools or Programming Tools. People here have a different skill, Concept & Design Projection, Visionary & Idea Artists.

 

Here's the forum: Conceptual Community

 

Cheers,

John Westlin

Edited November 23, 2013 by Osvir

[Osvir]

Adding in another layer here for those curious:
 

Ghost Writer (Wikipedia page), might explain a little bit what I am trying to do.

Conceptually I am looking for a "Snakes on a Plane" sort of deal, but with video game enthusiasts instead.

Kind of like this game idea too.

[Orogun01]

Conceptually I support a video game starring Samuel L. Jackson.

 

 

Onto the serious; the deal with a community trying to communicate to a developer is that is like an open forum without a moderator. Everyone just yells at the same time as if their ideas where sperm competing to fertilize the developer's brain (I shudder at the thought) So there needs to be some sort of moderation between the community about what will ultimately reach the developers and a person who gets the final say on certain matters. 

Now, I don't like the concept of a Ghost writer for this since the success of the game depends on the popularity of the concept. Unless you're talking about developers selecting an idea from an anonymous user.

It does seem like there will be a lot of competing ideas and I dread the thought of what some people will produce, just imagine if everyone in the Bioboards tried the the hand at gamemaking and you'll get an idea of what i'm talking about.

[Osvir]

It does seem like there will be a lot of competing ideas and I dread the thought of what some people will produce, just imagine if everyone in the Bioboards tried the the hand at gamemaking and you'll get an idea of what i'm talking about.

But instead, turn around and look at this very board in the Project: Eternity section and you'll see the opposite.

 

I guess World-Building is a more proper term than "gamemaking". This has nothing to do with the Developer picking anything, quite the opposite. The community creates the world, lore, mechanics, rules any developer can feel free to join in on the discussion and add their say to it as well.

I do have thoughts on moderation, though I can't quite say that it'd be a "final say" in any way but more or less a "Stop"-counter. "No more discussion on this topic! We've reached a general consensus, next topic" kind of. People would be free to continue the discussion on whatever it is but the next "Event" for world-building would begin as well. If there's a "split" (e.g. competition) or two groups begin to form (one likes one thing and the other side likes another thing), simply open up 2 categories/forums and moderate both of them side-by-side.

 

Moderation in this case = Guiding hand.

 

Idea is to create a world & game concept, give to developer, gain merits, next idea.

 

More or less community pre-production.

[Orogun01]

That seems fine but there is another issue; right now there is an argument on these forums about Torment being turn based. This was a developer's choice, which begs the question of what to do when there is a discrepancy between what the community wants and what is feasible for the developers. In the end whose game it is? The community's or the developer's? 

[Osvir]

Torment, Eternity & Wasteland and other games on Kickstarter is made by the developers. I am sure they are inspired and take some points from the community, but most of the stuff is made by them. They not only have the final say but they also create much (if not all) of the lore, classes, spells, abilities, combat system, health, stamina, areas, plots, quests, characters and so on and so forth. The developers create (approximate, hypothetical and symbolic number) 95-99% of all the content, from written idea to physical representation.

Opinion on the Turn-Based dealio~Off-Topic (linking this to the appropriate thread)
The developer is right in choosing to go with Turn-Based for Numenera for some reasons (The most obvious one, Wasteland 2 is Turn-Based, inXile already has a system which they can polish & adjust further on Torment. It'd be cheaper for inXile). But will it feel like Planescape: Torment if Numenera has Turn-Based? Probably not. Eternity will most likely feel like the old-school Infinity Engine games thanks to their RTwP system. I do fear that Numenera will feel like Wasteland 2 instead of Infinity Engine. If they go full on with the Turn-Based system I do hope that it at least feels like Temple of Elemental Evil.

To answer your question:
It would be the community' "game" in this case. The developer could adjust and modify some things that they understand better, but if the Community would say "We want RTwP" and the Developer then suddenly decides to change it to Turn-Based that'd be wrong. If the Kickstarter gets funded it'd get funded on the idea that the Community decided on. My idea is not the same thing as what Eternity, Wasteland 2 & Torment is. My idea is opposite of that.

- Obsidian creates a Kickstarter "We want to make this game! Do you want it? Fund!"

- My Community Idea "We want this game made! Do you want to create it? Okay! Let's see if more people are willing to fund it!" there is no risk involved. The Developers don't even need to dedicate themselves to it until the Kickstarter is actually successful. Of course, potential time schedules would have to be set. When a Developer is asked "We've created this world and a lot of people endorse it, you want to make a game out of it?" a very important question to ask is "Do you have time to create it if it gets successful?". In case of the scenario that the Kickstarter is not successful the Developers can continue doing whatever they had in mind in the first place.

The "People"/Community hire a Developer Team by the use of Kickstarter~ that's the jist of my idea. Now, imagine if you could hire the Government by the use of Kickstarter Kickstarter is a way to give much power to the people, in theory and in practice. You just need a space to discuss the ideas you want to pitch to the developer/government/authority/talent first.

The whole community idea I am suggesting is an idea where when the game idea is pitched to developer it is 90% complete in text-form. The only thing left to do would be to create areas in a level editor, create NPC's, create all 3D objects, create all dialogues and the physical world-building.

Another example: You want a painting to be done, but you are bad at painting. You have this very clear idea that you can translate to a painter and you ask him to do it for you, he'll get paid for it too. You are well aware that he has his own imagination and that your vision won't be his vision. But he could get the general "feel" that you wish to project. Now... does the painter get to decide the shape of a tree in the picture? I personally say yes. But would he be allowed to change that tree into a bush? Of course he would be allowed too, but it wouldn't be what I envisioned nor what I wanted.

[alanschu]

 

 

We've reached a general consensus, next topic

 

Just be careful with terms like this.

 

You'll need to set a really low threshold for "consensus" IMO.

[anubite]

You will never get consensus through forum discussion. Hell, you can't get two people to agree on something most of the time, nevermind one-hundred times that amount. And majority rules is sure to rub people the wrong way. You'll have a mess of a game after development if its design is dictated by a community.

 

Video games need a consistent theme, vision and direction. Video games need guide lines. They need design which is easy to build and extend. You won't get any of this aruging on a forum.

 

The best path to crowdsourcing a game is to sit down and build a design document under this idea:

 

I want to make a game of __ genre. Please help me.

 

-This is the engine we will use to make it. The levels you will build use these design parameters:

--Maps are this size by this size

--Maps are in this artistics style

--Maps use these assets from these locations or created by these people who have volunteered to make them under these guidelines:

---Models/textures are in format Xyz

---Models/textures co-incide with 'this art-style' or 'that art-style'

---Models/textures agree with the story we've written here:

----The story should have these themes and these characters and these locations

----The story will support these gameplay elements/mechanics:

-----The gameplay mechanics and elements are qrs, abc and 123

-----The focus of the game's mechanics is: its goal is to: et cetera, and will require these functions to be programmed in our engine:

------The scripts for our engine are written in language _, please submit your code to repository _ after thoroughly testing it

 

If you build up documents that build upon each other, like so, you can solicit paid or free help from a community. But you or some group of architects need to lay down the law. If people like your idea, they will contribute. If they don't, you may need to offer monetary rewards...

 

You won't build an engine from scratch this way, if you have no skills, you should stick to free/proprietary engines. You need to be driven to build an engine from scratch and you need an engine to even begin the foundational work of a game.

 

Games built through a community/online or even by yourself require momentum. You need momentum. If it gets lost, enthusiasm dies and the project grinds to a halt. People will come if there are pieces in place to begin building and if the idea is good.

 

You won't get very far being an "ideas guy". Your unwillingness to learn some process of the difficult work, or at least even begin to understand what it all takes, suggests to me you aren't ready to lead a project. Good ideas come from having experience or a background in how things are built and innovating from there. If you don't have a concept of how things are engineered - be it story, art, or mechanics, you will never innovate in any meaningful way.

 

Anyone these days can hobble together a Megaman clone. It takes talent to make a game that exceeds or at least meets the expectations of people looking for "That Next Megaman"; to make a game worth widespread attention and some title of 'worthy Megaman clone'.

 

You won't probably get funding through Kickstarter if you have no product to show and no history to speak of, even if you produce an outstanding video. At the very least, you'd need a strong cohesive vision to have a swing at it.

 

Hiring a team to build a game from scratch is extremely expensive. You can't order a couple sprites/models and mechanics, spend under $500, and expect to have anything to show for it. Good programming takes time and dedictation (a new game-breaking bug could crop up any moment that needs fixing). Good art takes hours to produce. Unless you have a large well to draw from, you will not produce a game that can recoup its losses from the strategy you are describing. You need dedicated workers or a decent stream of free ones to create an end-product of any artistic or enjoyable merit.

 

It is probably more productive for you to join one of the many game-creation forums out there and join a team. If they aren't looking for "idea guys" you can get some practical experience contributing to a working environment and understand a workflow process, how to manage people through the internet, the tools required to update/submit/create code or art, and the enjoyment of seeing a finished product. There are numerous mods for games that need people to help them come to fruition. Full-fledged games are things you should consider creating when you are more knowledgable.

 

Common examples of what I'm talking about can be seen in Mecha the Slag's Kickstarter game, or in Barkley 2. Both of the teams behind these games came from long-standing free games/mods. Mecha the Slag used to run 10+ servers on Steam for TF2, each of them hosting a different kind of mod/game mode he wrote from scratch. That's the kind of history you need to have a crack at getting sufficient kickstarter funds as an indie.

Edited November 26, 2013 by anubite

[Orogun01]

Another example: You want a painting to be done, but you are bad at painting. You have this very clear idea that you can translate to a painter and you ask him to do it for you, he'll get paid for it too. You are well aware that he has his own imagination and that your vision won't be his vision. But he could get the general "feel" that you wish to project. Now... does the painter get to decide the shape of a tree in the picture? I personally say yes. But would he be allowed to change that tree into a bush? Of course he would be allowed too, but it wouldn't be what I envisioned nor what I wanted.

You obviously don't work freelance on a creative field and interact directly with your client. If you did you wouldn't have used a painting as an example because the translation of how the client pictures something on their mind to what the artist creates is a very involved process.

The simple way that my teacher taught this to us is " A bucket on a rope" he told us to draw it. I drew the bucket hanging because that's how I visualized it, if the bucket is on a rope then it probably hangs from somewhere. He then drew a buck on the floor tied to a rope.

You only need to look at the process of conceptualizing and how artist have to present multiple versions of an idea to the client before they choose. 

The concept that this can be done within a community that doesn't interact directly with each other in real time, that is populated with people from different backgrounds and that has a limited understanding of the process of building a game, is idealistic.

 

Also, freelancing is a bitch to put up with specially when is a bad client I doubt there are many developers that are going to put up with gamers. Gamers, who aren't known by being reasonable or calm.

 

@Anubite: Nice post!

[Osvir]

Yes it is idealistic and naive.

But reading your responses makes me feel you don't quite understand my vision. Instead I'd like to give it a go in practice instead of discussing it in theory. I've made a thread over in the forum I created with a simple question (for starters), "What type of game would you like to see?". Feel free to join in and see where it goes. I don't really have any more theoretical points to discuss really.

[Orogun01]

Wish you luck

[Luridis]

As I once read from a developer...

 

Ideas are cheap. Put a group of folks in a room, give them an hour, and they'll have at least 3 decent game ideas. The hard part is generating enough interest for money and time to be set aside to pursue that idea in earnest.