Fourth wall breaking commentary from the Game Master

[Infinitron]

Icewind Dale 2 had funny quest completion messages like these:

 

 

 

Let's have some of that in Project Eternity.

[sesobebo]

i wouldn't call it 4th wall; just some commentary an andventurer might write into its journal.

 

but yeah, it could be fun. especially if it took into account PC's alignment (or whatever system obsidian will end up using).

[Gumbercules]

Agreed, I really like that touch.

[pl1982]

Just so long as it isn't overdone! I actually quite dislike "breaking the fourth wall". It completely breaks immersion for me, and in RPGs immersion to me is everything, especially fantasy RPGs. I have no problem with well-placed humour in the game, but breaking the fourth wall is very difficult to pull off without doing great harm (at least in my eyes) to immersion.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Looking at those screenshots and staying slightly on topic, I could do without the also fourth wall breaking information of how many XP I just got, and they should do away with visible XP meters altogether.

[Labadal]

What I would like is the if the devs did developer commentary and have it as an option while you play the game.

[Gumbercules]

Fourth wall breaking within the story is mostly bad and should be kept to a minimum or avoided completely, but as part of the interface it's not even really fourth wall breaking. The game has to convey a variety of complex information in a way that's quite different from how the characters would experience it, and the player likewise has to tell the game to do things that characters would carry out in a completely different way. I don't see how displaying XP or clever quest completion messages is any different from having a UI with icons that you select to perform actions. Talk of "immersion" is silly in that context.

[sesobebo]

and they should do away with visible XP meters altogether.

 

toggle. togglable options are always the best way.

[Sacred_Path]

 

and they should do away with visible XP meters altogether.

 

toggle. togglable options are always the best way.

 

I disagree. Any option that is available in-game that makes the game easier punishes you for not making use of it. I want to be able to play the game efficiently w/o it being immersion breaking.

[sesobebo]

I disagree. Any option that is available in-game that makes the game easier punishes you for not making use of it. I want to be able to play the game efficiently w/o it being immersion breaking.

 

although in fear of derailing this thread even more, i must clarify this:

 

-seeing xp will break Your immersion.

-not seeing xp will punish You.

-therefore options are bad.

 

 

 

wat.

 

 

 

edit: sorry infinitron.

Edited June 27, 2013 by sesobebo

[Sacred_Path]

-not seeing xp will punish You.

It tends to make other quests with lower XP reward irrelevant/ a bad choice.

[Amberion]

 

-not seeing xp will punish You.

It tends to make other quests with lower XP reward irrelevant/ a bad choice.

 

Only if you see no value in quests other than the XP they reward. Additionally, lower XP != no XP. In a single player game, there is no real reason NOT to do a quest, aside from role-playing motivations. There is no 'bad choice'.

[Gumbercules]

Still don't see how seeing XP is any more immersion-breaking than any other aspect of a cRPG interface.

[Amberion]

It's not. Quest XP is rewarded after the fact. It has no role in the initial decision of whether to accept a quest or not. I do agree that quest rewards should not be visible before the quest is accepted or completed - that's kind of spoilerish.

[Sacred_Path]

Only if you see no value in quests other than the XP they reward.

Generally you are right if quests also have other substantial consequences, or rather rewards, than XP (which most often they do not).

 

Additionally, lower XP != no XP.

Never said that, but a sub-optimal choice is a sub-optimal choice. BTW I don't believe in the "this is a single player RPG so nothing has to be balanced" rhetoric. It's also probably the only genre where you get to hear this.

 

Still don't see how seeing XP is any more immersion-breaking than any other aspect of a cRPG interface.

There's a difference between ingame (like damage rolls) and meta-game information though.

[Amberion]

*rhetorically* whatever happened to enjoying the game because it's fun to play, and not because of some artificial reward matrix?

[Gumbercules]

 

Still don't see how seeing XP is any more immersion-breaking than any other aspect of a cRPG interface.

There's a difference between ingame (like damage rolls) and meta-game information though.

 

 

 

It seems to me like one is an abstracted representation of the details of combat, while the other is an abstracted representation of character growth through overcoming challenges?

 

[Sacred_Path]

*rhetorically* whatever happened to enjoying the game because it's fun to play, and not because of some artificial reward matrix?

Personally, I enjoy imagining that the characters I roleplay aren't suicidal and able to make good choices; that is, that they would choose a path through the world isn't going to get them killed with certainty (if they lack the money for multiple resurrections, at least).

 

Anyway I didn't want to hijack the thread sry

 

 

It seems to me like one is an abstracted representation of the details of combat, while the other is an abstracted representation of character growth through overcoming challenges?

Yes, and I'm coming from the POV that characters can't perceive their growth in "experience". Though, if you have a different interpretation of "experience" and "levels" then you may disagree.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[Gumbercules]

 

It seems to me like one is an abstracted representation of the details of combat, while the other is an abstracted representation of character growth through overcoming challenges?

Yes, and I'm coming from the POV that characters can't perceive their growth in "experience". Though, if you have a different interpretation of "experience" and "levels" then you may disagree.

 

 

Wait, so do you want levels to be hidden as well? At some point, you inevitably run into a reminder that you're merely playing a game regardless of how much information is hidden. IMO, a zoomed-out isometric perspective and control of six party memebers at a time isn't particularly conducive to full immersion anyway, so I'm fine with just making my imagination work overtime to smooth out the discrepancies. If it were a HUD-less first person game I might agree with you, but since it's not I'd rather just have as much info available to me as possible.

[Sacred_Path]

Wait, so do you want levels to be hidden as well?

Nop. I think some pointers are vital to the player. Telling you exactly how much XP you got for every little task isn't vital OTOH.

[Infinitron]

Sacred_Path, what you want to play isn't a traditional CRPG. You're certainly not going to get that kind of thing from Project Eternity, so why even bring it up?

 

I think what you really want is a Warren Spector-style "immersive sim", not an RPG.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Infinitron

[Sacred_Path]

Sacred_Path, what you want to play isn't a traditional CRPG. You're certainly not going to get that kind of thing from Project Eternity, so why even bring it up?

Uhm... is anything that's not a part of the tradition unacceptable for a "traditional" CRPG even if it doesn't go against the tenets of this tradition? IOW, "I want mah kill XP and I want ta see em"?

[Infinitron]

 

Sacred_Path, what you want to play isn't a traditional CRPG. You're certainly not going to get that kind of thing from Project Eternity, so why even bring it up?

Uhm... is anything that's not a part of the tradition unacceptable for a "traditional" CRPG even if it doesn't go against the tenets of this tradition? IOW, "I want mah kill XP and I want ta see em"?

 

 

This game's lead designer is in favor of providing as much information as possible to players. That includes some things that even I'm not sure about, like labelling dialogue choices with the non-combat skill they're associated with (like "[Persuasion] Can you please let me past this checkpoint? I'll make it worth your while.")

 

And that's much more "immersion breaking" than visible XP points. So yeah, it's not gonna happen.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Infinitron

[Sacred_Path]

And that's much more "immersion breaking" than visible XP points.

Immershun is entirely subjective of course, but I wouldn't have a problem with that specific example as it's strictly ingame information. Your character knows when he's trying to be suave and convincing (or puts that much more effort into it).

 

One reason why I don't think it makes for a good option is that you can't really toggle between on and off. Once you've played the game with that option on, there's no point in ever turning it off again. OTOH, a good example of an option would be "max HP" in Icewind Dale.

[Infinitron]

A typical CRPG isn't just a vehicle for escapism - for many people, it's also a character building/simulation game, almost like a small scale strategy game. I'm certainly not against immersion, but the people who think "immersion uber alles" need to realize the genre has other aspects as well.

 

 

 

One reason why I don't think it makes for a good option is that you can't really toggle between on and off. Once you've played the game with that option on, there's no point in ever turning it off again. OTOH, a good example of an option would be "max HP" in Icewind Dale.

 

 

Uh well, maybe there can be a game mode where those toggles are locked?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Infinitron