The good, bad, and the ugly in Infinity Engine games

[PrimeJunta]

LOL, apology accepted. Rant away. I'm in a bit of a ranty mood myself actually.

 

Okay. Example. No armor allowed.

 

With no armor, you, the player, are forced to look for other ways to equip your character. Which leads you to Fell's tattoo parlor. Fell's tattoos were one of the most unique and memorable things of the game. Hiding them under a big suit of armor would have completely changed the way you're imagining the Nameless One, and would have turned the tattoos from a lynchpin of character building into just relabeled rings and amulets. You would've ended up playing a pretty generic high-fantasy hero -- robed if a wizard, armored if a fighter, cloaked and leather-jerkined if a rogue. Eliminating armor gave TNO a unique character. It made him stand out even in the bizarre and wild world of Planescape, and that much more so among other cRPG protagonists. It's crucial.

 

Do I mean that every game should be like PS:T? Hell no. Would I like to play only games that are like PS:T? Absolutely not. Would I want P:E to be like PS:T? No way.

 

But I do want there to be room for games like PS:T as well. Games that push the boundaries, upend your expectations, go on wild flights of fancy, go out of their way to break conventions. In fact the irony is that there could be no Planescape: Torment without the generic western high-fantasy blandness of Baldur's Gate to compare it with.

 

(I wrote a lengthy digression on the philosophical underpinnings of PS:T and Planescape, but snipped it. Maybe some other time; I don't currently have the energy to get into that discussion with the dedication that it deserves. The short version, though, is this: Planescape: Torment does have very strong internal consistency; the thing is that it's a metaphysical and thematic consistency, not the petty surface consistency that governs such mundane things as who gets to wear armor and where all the swords are. Keywords: belief shapes reality; the struggle of a sentient being against the substance of his, her, or its being, such as with Grace the chaste succubus, Dak'kon the lawful creature of chaos, Nordom the individual modron, and of course, The Nameless One the immortal mortal.)

[Malekith]

LOL, apology accepted. Rant away. I'm in a bit of a ranty mood myself actually.

 

Okay. Example. No armor allowed.

 

With no armor, you, the player, are forced to look for other ways to equip your character. Which leads you to Fell's tattoo parlor. Fell's tattoos were one of the most unique and memorable things of the game. Hiding them under a big suit of armor would have completely changed the way you're imagining the Nameless One, and would have turned the tattoos from a lynchpin of character building into just relabeled rings and amulets. You would've ended up playing a pretty generic high-fantasy hero -- robed if a wizard, armored if a fighter, cloaked and leather-jerkined if a rogue. Eliminating armor gave TNO a unique character. It made him stand out even in the bizarre and wild world of Planescape, and that much more so among other cRPG protagonists. It's crucial.

 

Do I mean that every game should be like PS:T? Hell no. Would I like to play only games that are like PS:T? Absolutely not. Would I want P:E to be like PS:T? No way.

 

But I do want there to be room for games like PS:T as well. Games that push the boundaries, upend your expectations, go on wild flights of fancy, go out of their way to break conventions. In fact the irony is that there could be no Planescape: Torment without the generic western high-fantasy blandness of Baldur's Gate to compare it with.

 

(I wrote a lengthy digression on the philosophical underpinnings of PS:T and Planescape, but snipped it. Maybe some other time; I don't currently have the energy to get into that discussion with the dedication that it deserves. The short version, though, is this: Planescape: Torment does have very strong internal consistency; the thing is that it's a metaphysical and thematic consistency, not the petty surface consistency that governs such mundane things as who gets to wear armor and where all the swords are. Keywords: belief shapes reality; the struggle of a sentient being against the substance of his, her, or its being, such as with Grace the chaste succubus, Dak'kon the lawful creature of chaos, Nordom the individual modron, and of course, The Nameless One the immortal mortal.)

I agree with all you have said except that you don't want P:E to be like Planescape. From the IE games i hope is Torment that Obsidian takes the most.

A BG2-P:T mix would be my dream game.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Malekith

[PrimeJunta]

Heh, actually I want Torment: Tides of Numenéra to be like Planescape: Torment. That's kind of the point. 

 

As to P:E, yeah, for sure I'd like it if it takes things from PS:T -- for example, making the story a personal rather than epic and making at least some of your companions draw from tragedy archetypes. I think Mask of the Betrayer is a pretty good precedent actually: not as out-there as PS:T, but still grounded in a comfortingly familiar "real [fantasy] world."

[Malekith]

Heh, actually I want Torment: Tides of Numenéra to be like Planescape: Torment. That's kind of the point. 

 

As to P:E, yeah, for sure I'd like it if it takes things from PS:T -- for example, making the story a personal rather than epic and making at least some of your companions draw from tragedy archetypes. I think Mask of the Betrayer is a pretty good precedent actually: not as out-there as PS:T, but still grounded in a comfortingly familiar "real [fantasy] world."

The thing i would love to have is the ability to interact with the environment through dialog.Snaping necks,stealing etc. And descriptions through text.

[Sacred_Path]

With no armor, you, the player, are forced to look for other ways to equip your character. Which leads you to Fell's tattoo parlor. Fell's tattoos were one of the most unique and memorable things of the game. Hiding them under a big suit of armor would have completely changed the way you're imagining the Nameless One, and would have turned the tattoos from a lynchpin of character building into just relabeled rings and amulets.

 

Speaking about internal consistency: if in this world (= Planescape setting) tattoos generally make you stronger, then it's legit. I really can't remember any specifics about PS:T but I think it was only the Nameless One who benefited from tattoos. That's a weakness in the design. Secondly, others like the Harmonium guards are, or look like, wearing armour. Why don't they just get some tats? This is the sort of flaw I'm talking about. If tats are to take the place of armor, they need to be the same, or lead to the same outcome, mechanics wise.

 

But I do want there to be room for games like PS:T as well. Games that push the boundaries, upend your expectations, go on wild flights of fancy, go out of their way to break conventions. In fact the irony is that there could be no Planescape: Torment without the generic western high-fantasy blandness of Baldur's Gate to compare it with.

This bothers me a bit though, because Planescape was just another AD&D setting. Granted it was a bit weirder, but it wasn't a stoner's paradise. I load up an AD&D game, I want to get dat armor class and dat thac0, as I expect the game will require these. Furthermore, it gives players an anchor. The world might be crazy as heck, but a guy in heavy armor with a big sword can still walk the alleys relatively safely.

 

I wrote a lengthy digression on the philosophical underpinnings of PS:T and Planescape, but snipped it. Maybe some other time; I don't currently have the energy to get into that discussion with the dedication that it deserves.

I'm all up for reading that, since I could only wonder how much of the drivel writing in PS:T had its roots in actual philosophy.

 

 

I think in a fantasy setting we want to have a balance of verisimilitude and **** that's just out there. An example:

 

Tolkien was very concerned with verisimilitude. People have actually evolved languages. Hobbits are small, live in the ground and do not stray far from home, which is why most folk don't know that they exist. The rules of death and dying are well established, which makes Arwen's tough choice more relatable.

Then, OTOH, we have things like the final battle in LoTR, where it's basically "And then the Eagles came out of the sky and scattered the hosts of evil and saved the day. The end."

 

From a logical standpoint, that's definitely a "WTF is this ****?" moment, even if Tolkien made up some half-assed reasoning about the Eagles carrying out the orders of Manwe and he doesn't care a lot about the mundane world. Apart from this being a weak rationalization and Manwe never being mentioned by name in LoTR, this is actually an interesting/ nice metaphor from the author, who definitely believed in a higher power and was of the opinion that all shadows are passing with time.

 

In a game though, this would have been a pretty ****ing bummer, now wouldn't it?

Edited March 8, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, tattoos. I'll try to make this as short as I can, but this will get a bit heavy. Still, you asked.

 

The philosophical underpinnings of Planescape: Torment lie in the debate over the nature of karma that's still going on between Hindus, Jains and Buddhists in this little Prime Material plane we inhabit.

 

Karma is Sanskrit for "action." It's also come to mean the delayed consequences of actions, in this life, in future rebirths, and in the weight of karma you have inherited from previous lifetimes.[1] That's about the extent of agreement about it. Opinions differ about the nature and causes of karma and its consequences, in this life and future lifetimes, in our world as much a in Sigil.

 

Karma and rebirth are central to Planescape: Torment. So central that it's literally the first thing you learn -- even if these words are cleverly obscured. The Dustmen believe that all actions in this life cause suffering. That eternally dying and being reborn is eternal torment. A king or a god suffers just like a beggar or a demon: the only difference is in the details. A beggar might hunger for food and warmth, where the king is tortured by fear of assassination or lust for more power -- and of course both will eventually grow old, sicken, and die, seeing everything they thought they owned, everything they ever loved or valued or believe in, turn into dust and be blown away by the winds of time. The only way out is to mortify your will to live and embrace the oblivion of True Death. And you -- The Nameless One -- are bound to the wheel of rebirth without even the relief of temporary oblivion caused by physical death and rebirth; you're condemned to awakening in the same body, recognized by your enemies and the tools you have used and discarded along the way. What could possibly be worse? [2]

 

PS:T doesn't offer you any answers at all. It just lets the various factions explain themselves. If the Dusties are the existential pessimists, the Godmen are the optimists. They see the cycle of rebirth as a school, which if embraced will eventually allow the divinity inherent in you to emerge as a rebirth in a god-realm, and perhaps beyond that into ultimate, blissful enlightenment and union with the divine essence. [3] The Sensates believe the only thing that exists is what you are experiencing here and now, this very instant, and liberation is perfect and complete surrender to that experience.[4] Ravel is your secret Zen master or guru who doesn't offer any answers either: she only puts that great existential question into words and forces you to answer it. To give your answer. Yours, not hers. [5]

 

So, tattoos. Tattoos are a reification of your karmic burden. Fell's selection changes based on your actions. He will engrave new images on your skin based on things you have done, companions you have chosen, dilemmas you have resolved. You -- and only you -- can benefit from them because you -- and only you -- carry the crushing weight of karma that has accumulated from countless rebirths in the same body, as the same broken being that awakes once more on that slab in the Mortuary. Annah could not benefit from them because she is a young soul, without the karmic weight to lend power to Fell's scrivenings. Grace could not benefit from them because she is a hell-being, a creature of pure chaos and evil struggling to overcome that substance and be reborn as something else. You're not the only such being in Sigil, though -- the collection in Fell's shop is testimony to that, and you can even encounter someone bearing a tattoo similar to yours in one location.

Planescape is not a democracy. The only iron rules are the rules of cause and effect; karma and vipaka, birth-and-death. The Nameless One wears tattoos because that is part of his karmic burden. Harmonium guards wear armor because that is where their karma placed them. The Nameless One could not trade his tattoos for Harmonium armor any more than you could trade your arms for wings and take to the air. This is where the internal consistency of Planescape: Torment lies. It could only allow The Nameless One to wear armor, or Annah to benefit from tattoos, by breaking its own, far deeper and more fundamental logic. It is a dream logic, yes, but a powerful dream logic; the world not as it is, but, perhaps, as we would like it to be.

 

[1] Although technically there's another term for this, "vipaka," which means "consequence."

 

[2] The Dusties are seriously cool and definitely my favorite faction in PS:T. They actually represent a relatively common misunderstanding of Buddhism. Nirvana is Sanskrit for extinction, "going out," which is very easy to misunderstand as meaning the same thing as final oblivion -- True Death. Arthur Schopenhauer was the first serious Western thinker exposed to Buddhist ideas, and he misunderstood it this way despite the fact that the Tipitaka explicitly warns against this. Consequently he developed a philosophy of deep existential pessimism. He was, in other words, a real-life Dustman! 

 

[3] The real-world counterparts to the Godmen can be found among Hindus, who believe that practicing the four purusharthas will lead you to ever better rebirths and ultimately union of your âtman with the brahman.

 

[4] This is another way-cool twist on Buddhism. Theravadins and some Zennies teach that enlightenment is found right here, right now, and the trick is just to sit still and pay attention to everything that's in your sensory experience at every moment. Much Zen and Theravada meditation practice is intended to train you in precisely this. They would not recommend that gallivanting across the Multiverse in search of ever cooler peak experiences is likely to lead to anuttara samyak sambodhi though!

 

[5] This is a nod to kôan practice, which is the basis of Rinzai Zen. The encounter with Ravel is pretty close to the real thing actually!

[Sacred_Path]

Planescape is not a democracy. The only iron rules are the rules of cause and effect; karma and vipaka, birth-and-death. The Nameless One wears tattoos because that is part of his karmic burden. Harmonium guards wear armor because that is where their karma placed them. The Nameless One could not trade his tattoos for Harmonium armor any more than you could trade your arms for wings and take to the air. This is where the internal consistency of Planescape: Torment lies. It could only allow The Nameless One to wear armor, or Annah to benefit from tattoos, by breaking its own, far deeper and more fundamental logic. It is a dream logic, yes, but a powerful dream logic; the world not as it is, but, perhaps, as we would like it to be.

Hang on, people end up being Harmonium guards or unarmored tattooed undead because karma? And for that reason, noone who is destined to go about life unarmored could don a suit of armor and profit from it? Noone has a sword like Dakkon because noone is destined to wield it/ has accumulated enough sword karma? Ok. Not sure if the developers of PS:T would agree here (any feedback, Mr Avellone?), but I'll accept that for now (really horrible idea both logically and artistically though). Also, maybe the Queen of Pain places people with a Sorting Hat? Sorry.

 

Still, even if we assume you arrived at a right conclusion, how are we to judge all this, gameplay-wise? How can you justify i.e. the class-changing of the Nameless One, or his constantly growing attributes (depending on your choice) with a completely deterministic universe? More importantly, has the game profited from all this?

[PrimeJunta]

Hang on, people end up being Harmonium guards or unarmored tattooed undead because karma? And for that reason, noone who is destined to go about life unarmored could don a suit of armor and profit from it? Noone has a sword like Dakkon because noone is destined to wield it/ has accumulated enough sword karma? Ok. Not sure if the developers of PS:T would agree here (any feedback, Mr Avellone?), but I'll accept that for now (really horrible idea both logically and artistically though). Also, maybe the Queen of Pain places people with a Sorting Hat? Sorry.

 

Karma does not require an arbiter any more than gravity. It just is. If you regularly practice, say, sarcasm like you're doing here, you will develop that facet of your personality. You will become better at it, you will resort to it more commonly, it will shape the way people react to you, and the way you react to people. For example, you will see people less willing to engage with you emotionally and intellectually; instead, you will tend to see interactions as conflicts or confrontations. By the time you're old, you will have developed a really ruthless, cutting wit, able to shut anyone down with a well-chosen retort. You will also have driven away many people with your tendency to resort to it, and perhaps accumulated a few friends who share the same outlook and enjoy trading barbs with it. Then you will die. This sarcastic karma will carry over into your next lifetime, and you'll already as a child be able to cut down people with words. You'll be your high school debating champion, and then maybe grow up to be a stand-up comedian known for his ruthless, cutting wit. After ten, twenty, a hundred, or a thousand lifetimes maybe you'll be born in the Abyss as a tanar'ri able to drive a weak-willed mortal to suicide by hitting her with the right barb at the right time. 

 

That's karma. Simply the accumulated weight of habit, practice, and skills, which carry over from death to birth and become innate characteristics. No "sorting hat" needed, any more than you need angels to pull down rocks so they fall to earth. It's a completely impersonal force of nature.

 

That's a common misconception you have, though, perhaps coming from our monotheistic culture with the notion of a god that sits in judgment over people. There's no such thing in the karmic religions. Gods have a very different position in them. They certainly do in Planescape.

 

 

Still, even if we assume you arrived at a right conclusion, how are we to judge all this, gameplay-wise? How can you justify i.e. the class-changing of the Nameless One, or his constantly growing attributes (depending on your choice) with a completely deterministic universe? More importantly, has the game profited from all this?

 

Ah, but is the universe completely deterministic? We don't know that, do we? Does a smoker finally succeed in giving up smoking, after a huge struggle, simply because that is the fruit of his karma, and is what he perceives as an exercise of agency and free will simply a delusion? Or does he have genuine agency? His choices are certainly constrained by his abilities, characteristics, and circumstances, but he appears to have the option to not light up, or to light up, moment to moment. Do you, as the player, have any choice when you're playing Planescape: Torment, or are you only assigning the ability points, selecting the conversation branches, and picking your class(es) driven by your karma?

 

"Has the game profited from this?" What an utterly stupid question! That's like asking "Has Star Wars profited from being space opera?" That's what Star Wars is. That's what Planescape: Torment is. If it wasn't about the great existential question -- as phrased by Ravel or someone else -- it wouldn't be Planescape: Torment.

 

Seriously, Sacred_Path, have you ever experienced anything deeper than popular culture?

 

Edit: Taking this thought a little bit further. The narrative structure of Planescape: Torment itself is a pretty good metaphor for karma. The Nameless One is driven by his karma to confront first Ravel and then The Transcendent One in the Fortress of Regrets. That much is completely deterministic [1]. No matter what you do along the way, that's where you end up. What's more, the choices available to you in the endgame are also determined by your previous choices during the course of the game -- even and perhaps your ability scores; choosing to cultivate the perfection of wisdom (=putting enough points there to get it to 25, a game mechanical view of practice of prajñaparamita if I ever saw one) will open up possibilities you would not otherwise have. But ultimately you do have a degree of choice. None of the choices are of the "everyone lives happily ever after" kind, which underlines exactly how much that crushing mass of karma you have accumulated really weighs. And in my view the game is certainly MUCH better for that -- if they had put in a "get out of hell free" ending where everyone lives happily ever after and TNO reaches True Death or merges with the Godhead or whatever (based on his choice of faction, natch), the game would have fallen on its face big-time.

 

Yeah, karma.

 

Edit edit: [1] There are a couple of ways you can lose the game and never make it to the Fortress of Regrets, but IMO they don't really count. If you play the game to the end, that's where you'll end up.

Edited March 8, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Sacred_Path]

That's karma. Simply the accumulated weight of habit, practice, and skills, which carry over from death to birth and become innate characteristics. No "sorting hat" needed, any more than you need angels to pull down rocks so they fall to earth. It's a completely impersonal force of nature.

You're contradicting yourself. Either you are free to act as you wish, but are consequently shaped by these actions, or everything is pre-determined from the get-go. I get the gist of what you're saying is, "well, if you had gotten to play the Nameless One one thousand years prior, you would have had the chance to really shape him by your actions. But now, his accumulted karma baggage forces him to never wear armor, sorry." Which would, on the other hand, contradict the fact that I can continuously develop the Nameless One class-wise and statistics-wise. I hope you're seeing my point.

 

Ah, but is the universe completely deterministic? We don't know that, do we? Does a smoker finally succeed in giving up smoking, after a huge struggle, simply because that is the fruit of his karma, and is what he perceives as an exercise of agency and free will simply a delusion? Or does he have genuine agency? His choices are certainly constrained by his abilities, characteristics, and circumstances, but he appears to have the option to not light up, or to light up, moment to moment. Do you, as the player, have any choice when you're playing Planescape: Torment, or are you only assigning the ability points, selecting the conversation branches, and picking your class(es) driven by your karma?

well ****, that last sentence was certainly the most meta argument I've ever read in a games discussion. I do not see how this pertains to wether a character can get some armor to wear, except that it's possibly my own armor-laden karma that forces me to even look for armor in the game. I'm a bit confused now.

 

"Has the game profited from this?" What an utterly stupid question!

Exactly! Game journalists would agree here.

That's like asking "Has Star Wars profited from being space opera?" That's what Star Wars is. That's what Planescape: Torment is. If it wasn't about the great existential question -- as phrased by Ravel or someone else -- it wouldn't be Planescape: Torment.

Raaaww, I'd prefer it if you left other media out of the discussion. Or maybe not, as that is my point (if PS:T was a book it might be half-decent, with bonus points if you happen to think that you can identify the smatterings of real philosophies and faiths behind its tenets).

 

Seriously, Sacred_Path, have you ever experienced anything deeper than popular culture?

If by popular culture you mean regularly withdrawing to the darkest woods, sitting on trees during thunderstorms howling at the sky, feasting on pine cones and clear spring water, no. That's just how I spend my weekends. Problem?

 

I'll admit that the point you're driving at is right outside my mental map. I think in categories like:

 

"Gud gaem r gud. Bad gaem r bad. Must sepprate da gud from da bad."

 

I feel the ultimate destination your argument is driving at is "this game is a masterpiece because it translates something like Buddhist beliefs into an onscreen, clickable scenario. Sure, the gameplay is ****, but damn it's artsy." At which point I'll just give up.

[PrimeJunta]

You're contradicting yourself. Either you are free to act as you wish, but are consequently shaped by these actions, or everything is pre-determined from the get-go.

That's a false dichotomy. The third option is that your choices are constrained by your past actions, but you do have enough freedom of will to choose between them. Incidentally, I believe that this is more or less how things are in real life.

I get the gist of what you're saying is, "well, if you had gotten to play the Nameless One one thousand years prior, you would have had the chance to really shape him by your actions. But now, his accumulted karma baggage forces him to never wear armor, sorry." Which would, on the other hand, contradict the fact that I can continuously develop the Nameless One class-wise and statistics-wise. I hope you're seeing my point.

Oh, not at all! You simply don't have enough time over the course of TNO's single lifetime in PS:T to grow him into, say, a sword-wielder or an armor-user. If the game gave you several lifetimes' worth of choices to make, who knows?

 

well ****, that last sentence was certainly the most meta argument I've ever read in a games discussion. I do not see how this pertains to wether a character can get some armor to wear, except that it's possibly my own armor-laden karma that forces me to even look for armor in the game. I'm a bit confused now.

You've got it! Your gamer-karma -- the habits and expectations that carried over into PS:T from the other games you've played drove you to look for armor, and you felt frustrated because it wasn't there. Just like TNO's numberless lifetimes had generated karma that precluded him from wearing armor.

 

This boils down to another common criticism of PS:T that also completely misses the point of what it's about: the fact that you're forced to play as a particular character, instead of being able to generate your own like in most role-playing games. Hell, some people argue that PS:T doesn't even qualify as a RPG because your character is predetermined!

 

Raaaww, I'd prefer it if you left other media out of the discussion. Or maybe not, as that is my point (if PS:T was a book it might be half-decent, with bonus points if you happen to think that you can identify the smatterings of real philosophies and faiths behind its tenets).

They're not smatterings, Sacred_Path. They're actual, serious explorations, of ideas that take genuine effort to understand. That's what makes PS:T what it is -- and the reason that people either love it passionately or totally don't get it.

 

Put another way, there is no way you can enjoy PS:T if you made WIS your dump stat. You just won't get it, any more than TNO will get any of the genuinely enlightened dialog options if you made WIS his dump stat.

 

If by popular culture you mean regularly withdrawing to the darkest woods, sitting on trees during thunderstorms howling at the sky, feasting on pine cones and clear spring water, no. That's just how I spend my weekends. Problem?

Not a problem at all. Nature is great! But it's not what I meant either. I meant, have you ever gotten a huge kick out of a work of art? A kick that puts tears in your eyes, takes your breath away, and forever changes you in some way?

I'll admit that the point you're driving at is right outside my mental map. I think in categories like:

 

"Gud gaem r gud. Bad gaem r bad. Must sepprate da gud from da bad."

Which explains why you're struggling so hard with something that cuts right through such categories.

I feel the ultimate destination your argument is driving at is "this game is a masterpiece because it translates something like Buddhist beliefs into an onscreen, clickable scenario. Sure, the gameplay is ****, but damn it's artsy." At which point I'll just give up.

That's an extremely uncharitable way of putting it, but in substance it's not too far off. I'll dispute "artsy" though. Most "artsy" stuff is worse shyte than most entertainment; pretentions bollocks that's nothing but everyone's waste of time. I do know genuine art when I see it though, at least some of the time, and PS:T has it. It's pure gold inside even if it has some mud stuck to it.

 

I don't think this conversation is really going anywhere much, by the way. I feel like I'm trying to explain what's so great about Wagner's Ring to someone. You can't explain it. You have to sit through and experience it. Then either you get it, or you don't. If you do, you will be forever changed. If you don't, you'll walk out wanting your sixteen hours back and thinking that anyone who does that voluntarily must be completely out to fracking lunch.

[PrimeJunta]

I can't seem to shut up about this, so what the hell. Here's another thought about PS:T and karma. Spoilers abound (although it's a bit late for that at this point, so sorry everyone if you haven't played it.)

On the face of it, the best ending you can get in PS:T is not exactly happily-ever-after. In it, The Nameless One voluntarily embraces damnation -- not even the escape into True Death the Dustmen seek, but casting himself into Hell to fight for all eternity in the Blood War between the tanar'ri and the baatezu. That sounds like a complete downer.

But it isn't.

The ending ought to feel horribly depressing, but it actually feels uplifting, purifying, almost joyous. How can that be? Because of the karmic logic of the ending, that's why.

 

The Nameless One's final act is that of ultimate self-sacrifice and atonement, giving his last to make good the misdeeds of his past lives, which he doesn't even remember, voluntarily offering himself to the worst the Planes have. Under the thematic logic of Planescape: Torment, governed by the immutable, iron law of karma and vipaka, action and consequence, such a massive sacrifice cannot but bear fruit. We do not need to be told in so many words, but we know, intuitively, that in that final act The Nameless One has redeemed himself. That is The Nameless One's final rebirth -- as Ksitigarbha, the bodhisattva of the hell realms, the one who voluntarily offers himself to the torments of Hell to give succor to those hope itself has abandoned. What could possibly be more glorious than that?

[Sacred_Path]

That's a false dichotomy. The third option is that your choices are constrained by your past actions, but you do have enough freedom of will to choose between them. Incidentally, I believe that this is more or less how things are in real life.

Then why don't I have the option to choose to put on armor? Why don't Harmonium members have the freedom to get some awsum magic tats? Damn, now I wish it wasn't 14something years ago that I've played PS:T. I wish I could think of more instances to slap you with.

Oh, not at all! You simply don't have enough time over the course of TNO's single lifetime in PS:T to grow him into, say, a sword-wielder or an armor-user. If the game gave you several lifetimes' worth of choices to make, who knows?

lol, good weaseling (no really). Well that's just a LARPy explanation for bad design, rite?

 

You've got it! Your gamer-karma -- the habits and expectations that carried over into PS:T from the other games you've played drove you to look for armor, and you felt frustrated because it wasn't there. Just like TNO's numberless lifetimes had generated karma that precluded him from wearing armor.

the problem are MY EXPECTATIONS, I get it. Shaped by the hours I've wasted in front of CRPGs. If I had expected a dime novel driven by a 2D engine, I would have been overjoyed.

 

 

They're not smatterings, Sacred_Path. They're actual, serious explorations, of ideas that take genuine effort to understand. That's what makes PS:T what it is -- and the reason that people either love it passionately or totally don't get it.

Being able to identify the serious flaws in a game = not getting it

 

fanboying a game because it alludes to an obscure interest you have = passionate love

 

 

 

Not a problem at all. Nature is great! But it's not what I meant either. I meant, have you ever gotten a huge kick out of a work of art? A kick that puts tears in your eyes, takes your breath away, and forever changes you in some way?

Hmm, this is really revolving around the same thing all the time. I've said repeatedly that, if the content of PS:T had appeared in some other form (say, a bookor better yet a B movie), it could be judged completely differently. You either a) don't believe me or b) try to dodge this issue. There's also the possibility that c) you don't agree with me, but I can't believe that.

 

 

 

I was sarcastic about eating pinecones

 

Edited March 8, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[PrimeJunta]

Sacred_Path, I'm done. I have no desire to trade insults with you over PS:T. I attempted to explain what I think is so unique and great about PS:T, but you respond with a lame attempt at sarcasm and snide comments about "artsiness" and "dime-store novels" and what have you.

 

If you ever drop that attitude and demonstrate a willingness to discuss this topic in a friendly manner, I'll be happy to get back to you. But I'm angry enough in meatspace that I really don't need more anger here.

[Sacred_Path]

Sacred_Path, I'm done. I have no desire to trade insults with you over PS:T. I attempted to explain what I think is so unique and great about PS:T, but you respond with a lame attempt at sarcasm and snide comments about "artsiness" and "dime-store novels" and what have you.

I also feel that what could be said has been said. It's been a while since I've played PS:T, and I suspect I could identify a lot more weaknesses about it (possibly also some strengths) if I had a better recollection of it.

 

The dime novel thing is mostly not an insult. I'd call it common sense. If you think you have an interesting story to tell, maybe even a thought-provoking one, and you don't want to be limited in any way by more or less arbitrarily defined rules and mechanics, putting it into a book would be understandable. Of course, if you just happen to work in video game development, it's also understandable that you'll try to make it into a game. I don't mind ambitious ideas and I've actually backed Tides of Numenera in the hope that they will succeed where Torment failed (putting that story into a corset of solid rules).

[Malekith]

 

Sacred_Path, I'm done. I have no desire to trade insults with you over PS:T. I attempted to explain what I think is so unique and great about PS:T, but you respond with a lame attempt at sarcasm and snide comments about "artsiness" and "dime-store novels" and what have you.

I also feel that what could be said has been said. It's been a while since I've played PS:T, and I suspect I could identify a lot more weaknesses about it (possibly also some strengths) if I had a better recollection of it.

 

The dime novel thing is mostly not an insult. I'd call it common sense. If you think you have an interesting story to tell, maybe even a thought-provoking one, and you don't want to be limited in any way by more or less arbitrarily defined rules and mechanics, putting it into a book would be understandable. Of course, if you just happen to work in video game development, it's also understandable that you'll try to make it into a game. I don't mind ambitious ideas and I've actually backed Tides of Numenera in the hope that they will succeed where Torment failed (putting that story into a corset of solid rules).

I think that the Numenera setting has "softer" rules to permite the DM to focus more on storytelling. That is among the reasons it was chosen for a Torment game.

[PrimeJunta]

Since you changed your tone...

 

Actually, I like PS:T so much precisely because it's a game, and I don't think it would have worked well as a novel or a movie. The novelization was certainly complete rubbish. Why? Because the game format gives you agency. You're actively discovering the story, fitting together the pieces, rather than being fed it in a predetermined order. This process of discovery is uniquely suited for a game, and PS:T is all about discovery.

 

PS:T is the only game I've played that has made me think that one day games could be a serious art form rather than just a way to pass the time. It opened the door to a whole new world. Nobody's walked through it since -- even if a few games sort of tentatively peek through.

 

I like the pitch for T:ToN so much partly because they de-emphasize the gamey aspect of it. Look at what they're pitching -- hey, we have these artists, and this composer, and these writers, and these designers, and these ones for stretch goals, and this is the story we want to tell, and for stretch goals we have more story, story, story.

 

I'm pretty sure that there'll be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about the mechanics when the game comes out though. Numenéra is as streamlined -- dumbed down, if you will -- as a RPG system can be while still being able to claim to be one. It is the exact opposite of D&D in this respect. Which strikes me as just about perfect for Torment.

 

But if you're expecting PS:T with similar but fixed mechanics, I don't think you're going to be very happy.

Edited March 8, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Razsius]

@Sacred Path
 

I can't comment on JRPGs, but the true RPGs that came out closest to 1998 that I can think of are Albion and Daggerfall, and they didn't hold your hand one bit. Not to mention the many games before that.

 

True RPGs? Right, whatever.

 

Go anywhere in the "open world" of Gothic with a novice character and you'll die. Walk around the first city in Gothic 2 instead of going through the gate and you'll die. Gothic games were the worst examples of punishing exploration that i can think of.

 

Why do I not remember this? Gothic 2 especially again gated you really well. Prime, for example, recognized this. I cleared the first area before the gate of the city in Gothic 2 with ease and I don't think you had a choice after that. It was go into the city or go into the city. Gothic was a little harsher. Ah wait, I did find a way to "cheese" the Gothic 1 + 2 combat system (the only way i could play the games unfortunately) however so if a monster wasn't immune to my sword it would eventually die.

 

You could get to level 3 IIRC just by sticking with the main quest until Nashkell (which was easy with plenty of hand holding, as I said). Also, if you don't "creep around" (= scout), and run into dangerous enemies, that's kind of self-inflicted, right?

 

In one of my 4+ playthroughs of the BG series my main was an assassin. Lvl 3 still didn't give you any consistency with your hide in shadows ability even more so in broad daylight. Black bears could kill you on the Candlekeep road. There's an Ogre at the crossroads before the Friendly Arm and all you have to do is go a little east. The assassin at the Friendly Arm has more then enough power to kill a party member. There's a sidequest to rid an npc's house of spiders. They are poisonous and thus can kill you. There's a merc band at the temple area as I recall and again can kill you pretty easily. Wouldn't exactly call Baldur's Gate a game that holds your hand.

 

Most enemies were not immune to Stinking Cloud, especially the more dangerous ones (NPC adventuring parties/ mages). Near endless supply? Nop, one casting was more than enough. You didn't need advance knowledge, stumble across an enemy party, pause, cast. Easy. Is it cheesy? Overpowered is a better word as it's a completely legit "tactic".

 

Ah I thought you meant that off screen casting of Stinking Cloud tactic, my bad. Still, the spell couldn't solve all your problems especially when you were ambushed. Also, enemy archers had a bad habit of attempting to kill my mage(s) when a spell was being prepared. I tended to use Web and Sleep instead of Stinking Cloud myself. It was necessary for some of the harder fights. I'd say playing Baldur's Gate at Core difficulty the game might be considered easy but Insane...

@Malekith

The problem with this is that every consumer has different expectations. Case in study: Torment. If you go from a "gamey" perspective the game is weak, and many people couldn't get into it for that reason.
If you go to have an adventure(not strictly games here,you can have that mindset when you read a book,watch a movie,etc),the atmosphere,the story,the themes make this game a masterpiece.For many people Planescape:Torment is the best RPG of all time and a work of art,something no other game has managed to achive.
That has also to do with what YOU personally consider an good RPG, and what value in your games most.

 

His point is there is very little gameplay in this supposed RPG that would be considered good. If, for example, I am supposed to simply judge it based on atmosphere, storytelling and the thematic nature of it then it should properly have been made a visual novel rather than an RPG. Yet, funny enough, I have seen gripes against this due to it "losing out" on character interaction, atmosphere and visual storytelling. All of which are entirely untrue as visual novels HEAVILY rely on the previous three facets to get their story across. In fact, i'd say that would sum up what a visual novel basically is. All the money goes toward voice work, backgrounds, sprites and cgs which are extremely time extensive and costly because they're more art then anything else (now there'd be something a western based non-anime visual novel). I evaluate games as a whole not by picking or choosing what I consider "good" about it then assigning it with something as far fetched as say "masterpiece level" greatness.
 

You guys really need to pick up a Key visual novel... seriously.

 

This is from another poster in other forum. He talks about the Witchers. Some people don't consider them RPGs because of the combat. And in truth, they aren't.They are action/adventure games. But that depents on your definition of what an RPG is.

 

We have sub acronyms for this sort of thing. There's JRPGS, ARPGS, CRPGs, SRPGs and more!

@Prime

*Takes a deep breath* okay let's see here. First off, it should be noted that Philosophy was my favorite class by far in junior college and Logic came in a very close second. I'll attempt to "argue" with you Prime but if your retorts turn out to be "Because it's art!" then I will fail miserably to live up to your expectations of whatever intelligence I supposedly have. This particular facet of conversation would probably be my Achilles Heel unfortunately.

Taking into account your no armor example I can understand if it revolves around the character of The Nameless One (namely he is simply not a soul that equips armor) being "unable" to equip armor which in that case a simple fix is in order. Either have his "armors" be something like "Loincloth of The Nameless One" and have it simply be a banana hammock that may or may not have actual armor statistics or make it readily apparent that it is simply not an option in the first place (ie no armor slot to speak of on his character sheet or a giant red x or something in the armor slot). That way I don't have to spend half the game looking for armor that doesn't actually exist which might've obviously pissed me off a tad. Second, in regards to the no sword example atmospherically this makes no sense as Karkarov could attest to there *is* no lack of swords in the Planescape universe. As well, there are plenty of swords in Sigil itself and vendors who deal in them. Again, a simple fix would be to make a sword sprite or two or three add some random sword flavor text/description and write "Unusable by The Nameless One" at the bottom. I really don't think the burden of proof should be on me, the player, to figure this stuff out and why it is this way. That, and I doubt the reasoning is as complex as you make it out to be. I HAVE watched Chris Avellone's Let's Play of Arcanum after all.

 

Okay, tattoos. I'll try to make this as short as I can, but this will get a bit heavy. Still, you asked.

 

As a forewarning, I know next to nothing about the Hindu faith (well I obviously know a bit more now) and know only a small smattering about the Buddhist faith. Still, it's not like I didn't pick up on some of the philosophical undertones of Torment. Most specifically I saw the existential nature of the Dusties and the enlightened optimism of the Godmen. Still, I didn't realize it all tied into the karmic system of the Hindu faith and was transposed onto something I would've liked to have just played.

There's also one "minor" error within your analysis, both Dak'kon and Annah can equip tattoos.  Which would put them where in this great Planescape karmic cycle exactly? As well, while this is most certainly very interesting why do I need to be a Hindu or have extensive knowledge of their faith in order to "come along for the ride?" Again the burden of proof has somehow landed in my, the player's, lap. To me, genuine art pulls you in regardless of race, sex, intelligence, background, lifestyle, etc.

 

This boils down to another common criticism of PS:T that also completely misses the point of what it's about: the fact that you're forced to play as a particular character, instead of being able to generate your own like in most role-playing games. Hell, some people argue that PS:T doesn't even qualify as a RPG because your character is predetermined!

 

Generally these are people we should ignore. Even "predetermined" characters have a story to tell. It'd be the equivalent of griping that a character in a book's personality does not match how *we* think it should and then not calling it a book.

 

They're not smatterings, Sacred_Path. They're actual, serious explorations, of ideas that take genuine effort to understand. That's what makes PS:T what it is -- and the reason that people either love it passionately or totally don't get it.

 

Answers require one to actually ask a question. If the person you are conversing with doesn't know what question you are asking is they will obviously not give you an answer to it.

 

I don't think this conversation is really going anywhere much, by the way. I feel like I'm trying to explain what's so great about Wagner's Ring to someone. You can't explain it. You have to sit through and experience it. Then either you get it, or you don't. If you do, you will be forever changed. If you don't, you'll walk out wanting your sixteen hours back and thinking that anyone who does that voluntarily must be completely out to fracking lunch.

 

I'm not the biggest fan of pretension myself Prime. I am not a smart man for being able to understand something like theoretical physics but I would be a very smart man if I could explain it to a certain female I know who has trouble locking doors.

 

Edit: God this thread is moving way too fast for me.

 

Prime said:

Actually, I like PS:T so much precisely because it's a game, and I don't think it would have worked well as a novel or a movie. The novelization was certainly complete rubbish. Why? Because the game format gives you agency. You're actively discovering the story, fitting together the pieces, rather than being fed it in a predetermined order. This process of discovery is uniquely suited for a game, and PS:T is all about discovery.

 

You can still do this in a story by using proper foreshadowing allowing "tidbits" to be given to those that are paying slightly more attention then others.  I'm always impressed when some fan analysis of some book or other i've read provides a means of showing me that the story is going to tie in to things in a certain way that I, myself, completely missed!

 

Apparently there's a limit to quoting... lol

Edited March 8, 2013 by Razsius

[Sacred_Path]

Since you changed your tone...

That happens all the time. I'm fickle

Actually, I like PS:T so much precisely because it's a game, and I don't think it would have worked well as a novel or a movie. The novelization was certainly complete rubbish. Why? Because the game format gives you agency. You're actively discovering the story, fitting together the pieces, rather than being fed it in a predetermined order. This process of discovery is uniquely suited for a game, and PS:T is all about discovery.

I guess that even at that level, if you just consider walking around, talking to NPCs, solving the odd riddle, you can have the bare bones of a game - if it takes skill and thought to advance the story. But then Torment was/ strove to be also an adaptation of AD&D. Of fighting cranium rats, thac0, become-a-thief-to-pickpocket-the-shirts-off-NPCs herp-a-derp AD&D. The result was a legendary mixed bag.

PS:T is the only game I've played that has made me think that one day games could be a serious art form rather than just a way to pass the time. It opened the door to a whole new world. Nobody's walked through it since -- even if a few games sort of tentatively peek through.

Hmm. Have you played only a few games, or did they all lack the attributes that strike you as art? Obviously, games feature things that are commonly denominated as art (graphic design, music). But especially role-playing games that strive to create worlds and usually give away quite a bit about their creators seem to me to have the potential to be considered art. The fact that you have fun playing them and that they were created with the intention to give you fun doesn't diminish that IMO. That would be like saying that all popular music cannot be art. What about relatively shallow music that comes with deep lyrics, or aims to mock shallow pop music itself?

I like the pitch for T:ToN so much partly because they de-emphasize the gamey aspect of it. Look at what they're pitching -- hey, we have these artists, and this composer, and these writers, and these designers, and these ones for stretch goals, and this is the story we want to tell, and for stretch goals we have more story, story, story.

It's another mixed bag, but that's ok for a Torment successor. It bothers me a bit that they haven't even decided on a combat system, and I've raged against their samey stretch goals quite a bit (more writers, more novellas). I want mounts, strongholds and tactical combat in my story-driven game! I stand by my claim that if you produce a video game, you should attempt to make full use of the possibilities of the medium. It doesn't bother me that reputedly, you can skip all combat if you want to; more choice is to be welcomed. I'm also looking forward to the inevitable walls of text.

But if you're expecting PS:T with similar but fixed mechanics, I don't think you're going to be very happy.

Let's wait and see. Like you said, the number crunching will be very limited, but then I don't have any expectations in regards to the Numenera system, contrary to those I have in regards to DnD.

[Malekith]

He didn't compained about no gameplay, he complained about plot holes and no strict rules. Also Planescape's gameplay wasn't so bad as people make it sound. Dialog IS part of the gameplay after all. In that aspect Torment has the best gameplay from every RPG that came out.
The combat wasn't so bad.It wasn't stellar either, but it wasn't so much worse than BG1. The basic problem was that most of the combat was filler. P:T has high amounds of trash combat and in fact would be a much better game with less combat. That doesn't make it worse than DA:O which have the excact same problem. 90% of the combat is filler between the next cutscene.
Torment:ToN will improve by having LESS combat (but better). So in many aspects it will be more of a "visual novel" as some people like to say than Planescape:Torment ever was.
As for your other point i have no idea of Hindu faith, but even without such knowlege i found the game terific.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Malekith

[Sacred_Path]

I must be so bored...

True RPGs? Right, whatever.

When I say true RPG, I mean it to exclude action games like Diablo. Because if we include those, we can include all kinds of games that aren't pertinent to the discussion.

 

Funny aside, did Diablo hold your hand? I guess it wasn't necessary when there's only one location where you proceed linearly.

 

Why do I not remember this? Gothic 2 especially again gated you really well. Prime, for example, recognized this. I cleared the first area before the gate of the city in Gothic 2 with ease and I don't think you had a choice after that. It was go into the city or go into the city.

I have to say I've only played Gothic 2 with the Night of The Raven addon (or watchamacallit) and that is said to make things a little harder. I remember one "beast" in front of the city gate that you certainly didn't take out with a level 1 character. Also if you walk around the first city you get run down by wolves (2 out of 3 times anyway, if you can get to the guards they save you).

In one of my 4+ playthroughs of the BG series my main was an assassin. Lvl 3 still didn't give you any consistency with your hide in shadows ability even more so in broad daylight. Black bears could kill you on the Candlekeep road. There's an Ogre at the crossroads before the Friendly Arm and all you have to do is go a little east. The assassin at the Friendly Arm has more then enough power to kill a party member. There's a sidequest to rid an npc's house of spiders. They are poisonous and thus can kill you. There's a merc band at the temple area as I recall and again can kill you pretty easily. Wouldn't exactly call Baldur's Gate a game that holds your hand.

Black bears only attack if you stay close to them IIRC (they're territorial I guess). The ogre could be circumvented (and if you scout you know it's there). The FA assassin casts spells IIRC and you can save/ reload him to death (until your guys manage to disrupt his casting two times or something). Now a no reload game in BG1 is tough considering your hit points, but I think we shouldn't include that because that's not what the game was balanced for. The spiders are a side quest, they are not on the main path, otherwise you would be correct about those ****ers. The temple area is also not part of the main path. And BG holds your hand quite a bit more than other RPGs of its time until Nashkell, because your party members (assuming you took those the game "defaulted" you to, Jaheira and Khalid) would bitch and moan for you to get your ass to Nashkell first.

 

Oh, the only real exception to my claim would be the two ogres (I think they are ogres?) directly south of Beregost, on the road. Those can kill you easily unless you kite the **** out of them (which is trivial with a haste potion).

 

Ah I thought you meant that off screen casting of Stinking Cloud tactic, my bad. Still, the spell couldn't solve all your problems especially when you were ambushed.

I think I mentioned ambushes. Those were tough. In fact, at the lowest levels, they usually prompted a reload.

 

 

edit: BTW if we talk about what IE game had the best outdoor areas/ "feeling" I think we should give the award to IWD2.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[Karkarov]

 

Planescape is not a democracy. The only iron rules are the rules of cause and effect; karma and vipaka, birth-and-death. The Nameless One wears tattoos because that is part of his karmic burden. Harmonium guards wear armor because that is where their karma placed them. The Nameless One could not trade his tattoos for Harmonium armor any more than you could trade your arms for wings and take to the air. This is where the internal consistency of Planescape: Torment lies. It could only allow The Nameless One to wear armor, or Annah to benefit from tattoos, by breaking its own, far deeper and more fundamental logic. It is a dream logic, yes, but a powerful dream logic; the world not as it is, but, perhaps, as we would like it to be.

Hang on, people end up being Harmonium guards or unarmored tattooed undead because karma? And for that reason, noone who is destined to go about life unarmored could don a suit of armor and profit from it? Noone has a sword like Dakkon because noone is destined to wield it/ has accumulated enough sword karma? Ok. Not sure if the developers of PS:T would agree here (any feedback, Mr Avellone?), but I'll accept that for now (really horrible idea both logically and artistically though). Also, maybe the Queen of Pain places people with a Sorting Hat? Sorry.

 

Still, even if we assume you arrived at a right conclusion, how are we to judge all this, gameplay-wise? How can you justify i.e. the class-changing of the Nameless One, or his constantly growing attributes (depending on your choice) with a completely deterministic universe? More importantly, has the game profited from all this?

Uh no, he is uh... sort of going overboard.

 

Harmonium in PS:T are not well represented because every one of them I met was a joke compared to how they were supposed to be.  They are the absolute arbiters of the law... imagine Judge Dredd except he doesn't execute people as often.  That's what the Harmonium is supposed to be.

 

Also in Planescape you only have karmic debt or weight if you think you have karmic debt or weight.  Your choices are definitely yours and not pre ordained.  Which is another thing I hate about PS:T.  There is only one "good" ending and only one "right" way to play the game.  This is not how planescape should have been represented.

[PrimeJunta]

@Razsius: I didn't know much about Hinduism or Buddhism when I first played PS:T. I only got into that much later and connected the dots then. I only described it here to point out that the stuff that seems random and arbitrary to you isn't, because it's grounded in that deeper thematic structure.

 

@Sacred_Path: "Have you played only a few games, or did they all lack the attributes that strike you as art?"

 

I have played a ****load of games. I have no idea how many. Must be hundreds. I even reviewed them for a magazine at one point. So no, that's not it.

 

Art is not defined by attributes. It's like porn: you know it when you see it. And so far, PS:T is the only game I've played that I would consider art, without qualifications. There are others which timidly dip a toe in, but that's about it.

 

@Karkarov: so what if it took huge liberties with both AD&D and Planescape? That's another thing that makes it such a great game -- it refuses to be bound by anything if it interferes with the thing it's trying to do. It would have been far worse if it hadn't broken those conventions!

 

Bottom line: most games you have to approach analytically. PS:T isn't like that. That, you have to approach intuitively -- just throw yourself into it and follow its dream logic. For me one of the most wonderful things about it was the realization -- early on -- that the usual rules don't apply and then the quest to discover the logic under which Sigil does operate. I love that sort of thing. Most, I think, hate it.

 

Your, Karkarov's, and Sacred_Paths dislike of the game stems from that. I believe it is something that's pretty deeply built into the structure of your personality. You simply do not have the capability to appreciate a game like PS:T -- just like I don't have the capability to appreciate a game like Baldur's Gate. Each of them collides with deep personality structures -- the karma we've inherited, if you will -- so we just don't get it.

 

I honestly don't. Lots of people are rabid fans of BG, so there's must be something to like about it. I just totally can't see what it could possibly be, and no amount of explanation could get me to see that. It must be like that for you guys and PS:T.

[PrimeJunta]

Oh, about Gothic 2 and that first city -- I especially liked that first area. One of the better a-ha! gaming moments I've had was when I figured out I could lure the orc scout hiding in the woods near the gate to the shadowbeast also sleeping there, and have them take each other out. Later on, I had huge fun sneaking stealthily around areas with monsters that would kill me dead in seconds should they spot me. Much more fun that peril-free exploration where the only thing you're going to encounter are trash mobs.

[Sacred_Path]

I believe it is something that's pretty deeply built into the structure of your personality. You simply do not have the capability to appreciate a game like PS:T

You do realize that this would be an extremely weak argument when discussing anything else where judgements rest on subjective sensibilities (say, ART)?     "Your brains aren't wired in a way that would allow you to appreciate this splendor! Begone!"

 

I would phrase it differently: me and a number of others have problems appreciating Torment as a game because it fails in areas expected of a game. The problem is Torment actually attempts to satisfy in these areas, but fails. This makes all subsequent attempts at capturing our attention/ admiration moot.

 

About Gothic(2), I don't mind punishing games in principle. If games are still the topic here (not sure)

Edited March 9, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[PrimeJunta]

Sacred_Path -- exactly, that's what I've been saying all along: your failure to appreciate PS:T is due to your inability to approach it on its own merits. You expect it to be, as Karkarov put it, a faithful rendition of AD&D in the Planescape setting -- and when it isn't, you get conceptually stuck. There is no way I or anyone else can give you the experience we have had with it. But it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that our experience isn't valid -- or is even conspicuously out-of-the-norm -- given the huge success of the T:ToN kickstarter, bigger even than P:E's so far.

 

So yeah, totally subjective. I can only speculate about why you're unable to appreciate it and I am, just like I can only speculate why Razsius is able to appreciate BG and I'm not. One of life's little mysteries, I guess. But not something you can argue about, since, as you pointed out, it's all based on subjective sensibilities.

 

I do think, though, that being grounded in classic literature and opera helps appreciate PS:T. It's based on tragedy archetypes and existential questioning, both of which have been explored a lot in them. Perhaps I felt immediately at home with PS:T because it wasn't the first time I encountered these themes; only the first time I encountered them in a game. So maybe that's why I was able to easily shift my expectations from "AD&D/Planescape/IE" to "opera in game form." Familiarity.

Edited March 9, 2013 by PrimeJunta