Removal of all Socialism in the US!

[Hurlshort]

There is quite a bit of recourse in the US you can go through if the government siezes your land. It still isn't pretty, but you are not completely at their mercy.

 

Think not? The Kelo case it was litigated for five years before the court awarded the property to the city. During the time the city was injoined from developing the property, the houses still stood, the people still lived in them. After the decision the City evicted the people, bulldozed the houses and then sued to homeowners for five years of back rent. Not only did they lose everything, they founf themselves tens of thousands of dallars in debt, to say nothing of swamped in legal bills from the fight. Some mercy huh.

 

You ever had to deal with the IRS Hurlie? You are utterly at their mercy and you would find their mercy lacking.

 

Right now out in Wyoming and Colorado the US Government is using Emminent Domain to seize privately owned ranchlands and add to a federal WMA. I am watching that one very closely because my home borders the Anderson Tully WMA on the entire southern property line. If they try to seize my home they had best be prepared to kill me for it. Because, by God in heaven, I will fight to keep it.

 

Oh, you never should fight to keep the land, that will almost always be a loss. You can fight to get a decent value for the property, however.

[Zachariah Tam]

Well, if you cannot win against the fight, and they won't give you what you consider a fair value, do what you can to make the land and property unusable by anyone.

 

Scorched earth policy has worked in many wars.

[lord of flies]

Summary of points made in this topic:

Businesses make money and give me things, ergo business is good!

This, of course, ignores the fact that "my money!" is not always a good reason to support something. For example, tobacco companies make money when they give you cancer. Car companies make money when they sell you a defective car. Toy companies make money when they sell you toys covered in lead paint. Yes, there are then legal fees. But what if the legal fees don't measure up to the cost? What if the company decides the risk of legal fees is worth the profit from ****ty products?

 

Governments are inherently untrustworthy, they hate me and want all my money!

Ever heard of a little country called Sweden? Ever heard a bunch of stories from there about how the government invaded their privacy and stole all their things? No? That's because in Sweden, the working classes have united and overthrown the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. While the bourgeois elements of their society no doubt despise this and are trying to undo it (e.g. by joining the EU), the people of Sweden are happy, consistently employed, and don't need to worry about the wildly disproportionate power of corporations over their government. Oops, there goes your libertarian theories of evil governments!

 

I am scared of the surveillance society.

You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide, comrade. Do you have something to hide?

[I want teh kotor 3]

Summary of points made in this topic:

Businesses make money and give me things, ergo business is good!

This, of course, ignores the fact that "my money!" is not always a good reason to support something. For example, tobacco companies make money when they give you cancer. Car companies make money when they sell you a defective car. Toy companies make money when they sell you toys covered in lead paint. Yes, there are then legal fees. But what if the legal fees don't measure up to the cost? What if the company decides the risk of legal fees is worth the profit from ****ty products?

If you're stupid enough to smoke, fine; I hate hate hate smoking, but I wouldn't dare try to remove it from the economy. Car companies lose crap-tons of money in the long term from selling you defective brakes or whatever the hell it was; Toyota has undergone serious brand devaluation, and I'm sure plenty of people are going to hesitate before purchasing Toyotas. And yeah, lead paint blows, but it's from a ****ing Commie country, what do you expect?

 

Governments are inherently untrustworthy, they hate me and want all my money!

Ever heard of a little country called Sweden? Ever heard a bunch of stories from there about how the government invaded their privacy and stole all their things? No? That's because in Sweden, the working classes have united and overthrown the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. While the bourgeois elements of their society no doubt despise this and are trying to undo it (e.g. by joining the EU), the people of Sweden are happy, consistently employed, and don't need to worry about the wildly disproportionate power of corporations over their government. Oops, there goes your libertarian theories of evil governments!

Wow, way to ignore a perspective. Ya know, being rich doesn't make you evil-- far from it. Being rich means that you (or someone related to you) did something with your life...

 

I am scared of the surveillance society.

You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide, comrade. Do you have something to hide?

How dare you address me as "comrade"? That's a ****ing insult, and I won't stand for it.

[Zachariah Tam]

What about privacy? Just because someone has nothing to hide doesn't mean the government or anyone else has the right to get into your private affairs.

[lord of flies]

If you're stupid enough to smoke, fine; I hate hate hate smoking, but I wouldn't dare try to remove it from the economy. Car companies lose crap-tons of money in the long term from selling you defective brakes or whatever the hell it was; Toyota has undergone serious brand devaluation, and I'm sure plenty of people are going to hesitate before purchasing Toyotas. And yeah, lead paint blows, but it's from a ****ing Commie country, what do you expect?

lol way to ignore the facts. China isn't communist! Many companies make poor long-term business decisions for short term gain, thus hurting you, the consumer! Tobacco companies purposefully suppressed the truth about its dangers for decades!

 

IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE FOR A COMPANY TO HAVE ITS OWN BEST INTEREST AT HEART AND STILL SELL YOU DEFECTIVE PRODUCTS. If the probability of failure, times the expected legal costs from each failure, times the number of products, is greater than the cost of building new products, they have absolutely no reason not to sell it to you.

Wow, way to ignore a perspective. Ya know, being rich doesn't make you evil-- far from it. Being rich means that you (or someone related to you) did something with your life...

WRONG. Being rich means that you have wildly disproportionate political influence, and are reliant on masses of poorer people's labor, stealing from their hard work for your own lazy profit.

 

How dare you address me as "comrade"? That's a ****ing insult, and I won't stand for it.

T.T

[lord of flies]

Not a single thing on God's green Earth is worth a single thin red cent unless a human being had to work to produce or obtain it. Rich people are benefiting off of others' labor. Deal with it.

[Zachariah Tam]

Not all rich people are like that. Some started as laborers, saved and invested wisely, and became rich on their own skill and ability. That kind of goes against your theory doesn't it?

[I want teh kotor 3]

If you're stupid enough to smoke, fine; I hate hate hate smoking, but I wouldn't dare try to remove it from the economy. Car companies lose crap-tons of money in the long term from selling you defective brakes or whatever the hell it was; Toyota has undergone serious brand devaluation, and I'm sure plenty of people are going to hesitate before purchasing Toyotas. And yeah, lead paint blows, but it's from a ****ing Commie country, what do you expect?

lol way to ignore the facts. China isn't communist! Many companies make poor long-term business decisions for short term gain, thus hurting you, the consumer! Tobacco companies purposefully suppressed the truth about its dangers for decades!

Uhh... I've actually never had a Toyota, so no negative effects there... And your beloved Commies tend to blow the brains out of those who reveal the evil of their ways... When companies do that, let me know.

 

 

Wow, way to ignore a perspective. Ya know, being rich doesn't make you evil-- far from it. Being rich means that you (or someone related to you) did something with your life...

WRONG. Being rich means that you have wildly disproportionate political influence, and are reliant on masses of poorer people's labor, stealing from their hard work for your own lazy profit.

Right... My grandfather, who came to America after the Holocaust with nothing but psychological issues, and who worked his entire life to build up enough money to leave behind plenty for his descendants, was definitely lazy. Obviously. Because just sitting on you ass is the only way to make money.

 

How dare you address me as "comrade"? That's a ****ing insult, and I won't stand for it.

T.T

You have fun with that, and when your beloved Commie government blows you to all hell for no reason, just remember that you brought it upon yourself.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Not all rich people are like that. Some started as laborers, saved and invested wisely, and became rich on their own skill and ability. That kind of goes against your theory doesn't it?

 

yes, but don't tell him that; its a little beyond his comprehension that the rich aren't the devil incarnated.

[lord of flies]

Uhh... I've actually never had a Toyota, so no negative effects there... And your beloved Commies tend to blow the brains out of those who reveal the evil of their ways... When companies do that, let me know.

The death penalty for selling defective products which can kill their victims is perfectly sensible. There's the death penalty for murder, isn't there? Same thing.

Right... My grandfather, who came to America after the Holocaust with nothing but psychological issues, and who worked his entire life to build up enough money to leave behind plenty for his descendants, was definitely lazy. Obviously. Because just sitting on you ass is the only way to make money.

There is a difference between "having money" and "being rich." If I spend ten hours a day, working hard at my difficult job, then I certainly deserve the money I'll get. That's very different from, say, playing the stock market to "earn" that same amount.

You have fun with that, and when your beloved Commie government blows you to all hell for no reason, just remember that you brought it upon yourself.

At least they'll have a reason to do it to you.

 

INVESTMENT IS NOT LABOR.

[Zachariah Tam]

So? It still takes skill and knowledge to make investments to gain a good return.

 

Also, the death penalty is barbaric.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Uhh... I've actually never had a Toyota, so no negative effects there... And your beloved Commies tend to blow the brains out of those who reveal the evil of their ways... When companies do that, let me know.

The death penalty for selling defective products which can kill their victims is perfectly sensible. There's the death penalty for murder, isn't there? Same thing.

So, you want to kill Toyota and its employees for making bad cars, but Stalin can kill 20+ million people and that's okay?

 

Right... My grandfather, who came to America after the Holocaust with nothing but psychological issues, and who worked his entire life to build up enough money to leave behind plenty for his descendants, was definitely lazy. Obviously. Because just sitting on you ass is the only way to make money.

There is a difference between "having money" and "being rich." If I spend ten hours a day, working hard at my difficult job, then I certainly deserve the money I'll get. That's very different from, say, playing the stock market to "earn" that same amount.

And... Where exactly do you think he got the money to buy his stock and real estate from? Pulling it out of his ass? No. he worked for it, lived it thriftily, and invested.

 

You have fun with that, and when your beloved Commie government blows you to all hell for no reason, just remember that you brought it upon yourself.

At least they'll have a reason to do it to you.

I know, trying to earn something to leave to your descendants in just so terrible.

 

INVESTMENT IS NOT LABOR.

See above.

[Zachariah Tam]

I am really finding this LoF fellow a bit disturbing. He doesn't really support Stalin does he?

[I want teh kotor 3]

I am really finding this LoF fellow a bit disturbing. He doesn't really support Stalin does he?

 

You're not the only one. And yes, he supports Stalin, Mao, and all the rest of those psychos.

[Zachariah Tam]

Oh my...

[Trenitay]

Hey now, can't we all just agree that everyone is wrong.... Because they are.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Oh my...

 

Yup.

[Zachariah Tam]

Here I thought the original poster was a nutcase.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Here I thought the original poster was a nutcase.

 

Nah, Kill was just engaging in a little sarcasm...

[lord of flies]

I am really finding this LoF fellow a bit disturbing. He doesn't really support Stalin does he?

 

You're not the only one. And yes, he supports Stalin, Mao, and all the rest of those psychos.

I don't unconditionally support Stalin and Mao, but I do unconditionally support a more nuanced view of them. Yes, they had their bad points, but they also had their good points. I personally think the good outweighs the bad, since I'm not a dirty counter-revolutionary dog.

And... Where exactly do you think he got the money to buy his stock and real estate from? Pulling it out of his ass? No. he worked for it, lived it thriftily, and invested.

The investment still isn't work. It still won't be work no matter how long you labor to get the capital to invest. The laboring to get capital is labor; the application of capital in investment is labor-skimming.

[I want teh kotor 3]

And... Where exactly do you think he got the money to buy his stock and real estate from? Pulling it out of his ass? No. he worked for it, lived it thriftily, and invested.

The investment still isn't work. It still won't be work no matter how long you labor to get the capital to invest. The laboring to get capital is labor; the application of capital in investment is labor-skimming.

 

 

That's... just silly. So, essentially, in your warped world-view, a person is restrained to their salary? Because... using it productively is just bad??

[lord of flies]

That's... just silly. So, essentially, in your warped world-view, a person is restrained to their salary? Because... using it productively is just bad??

"Using it productively" (i.e. investing) is ultimately just taking from someone else's salary. Outside of minting, money is a zero sum game. The laborers in the company produce labor and goods, the company (and, by extension, the investors) skim labor off the top. They are stealing the money which rightfully belongs to the workers by using other money. They, who have the least need, are given the most.

[I want teh kotor 3]

That's... just silly. So, essentially, in your warped world-view, a person is restrained to their salary? Because... using it productively is just bad??

"Using it productively" (i.e. investing) is ultimately just taking from someone else's salary. Outside of minting, money is a zero sum game. The laborers in the company produce labor and goods, the company (and, by extension, the investors) skim labor off the top. They are stealing the money which rightfully belongs to the workers by using other money. They, who have the least need, are given the most.

 

That's just irrational... Without the corporations, where exactly do you suppose people would work? Comintern? The investors put their money in and hope to reap rewards... What they do is risky; its just a form of gambling. Do you think that should be illegal too? Or, for that matter, anything other than being a factory worker?

[Zachariah Tam]

"Using it productively" (i.e. investing) is ultimately just taking from someone else's salary. Outside of minting, money is a zero sum game. The laborers in the company produce labor and goods, the company (and, by extension, the investors) skim labor off the top. They are stealing the money which rightfully belongs to the workers by using other money. They, who have the least need, are given the most.

 

That doesn't even make any sense. Without the company, the people who work there wouldn't have a job. Without a job, they wouldn't be getting any money. It wouldn't matter who has the least or most need, because no one would be getting anything.

 

Without a job how do you expect people to pay their bills, pay for their food and housing, pay for what they need to live?

 

Investors and entrepreneurs create these jobs by putting forth their own resources, risking it, to give people jobs either by making products or giving services.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Zachariah Tam