Discussion about the concept of Prestige classes

[ramza]

Hi all,

 

I have been trying to bring some more changes to the DnD rules and those concern the use of Prestige Classes. I have always disliked the concept as a whole because they usually interrupt the logical flow/development of your initial class (a wizard's familiar will stop progressing, a cleric's turn undead will stop progressing, a bard's song will stop getting better, a rogue's sneak attack will stay at low levels, etc) and because they tend to be overpowered. On the other hand, I have always liked the concept of kits from the 2nd edition rules where you switch some of the core classes' abilities with those of the specialty class (the kit).

 

How would this be implemented in my house rules? For example, the shadowdancer isn't a prestige class anymore but just a kit. In other word, it's just a rogue who gets:

 

- Progressive shadow jump (instead of Trap sense)

- gets fewer sneak attack bonus (every 5 levels instead of every 3) but gets instead the various special abilities of the shadowdancer

 

Another example, the dwarven defender is just a barbarian with defensive stance instead of barbarian rage.

 

However, there are some classes that cannot be easily recreated, like the Arcane trickster, and this is where I use the concept of prestige feats. In this case, I have created two special feats inspired from the Arcane Trickster's abilities. Their requirements are similar to those needed in order to advance in the prestige class and can been taken anytime as feats. Thus, no need to disrupt the natural progression your wizard or bard just to get all these special features. Besides, I do think that some prestige classes like the Arcane Trickster, the dwarven defender or the Spellsword are way overpowered and grant way too many bonuses in the span of 10 levels (as an Arcane trickster allows the character to progress normally in his spellcasting class while getting cool abilities at the same time).

 

Another problem I have encountered with the prestige classes is that they are useless when it comes to your base stats. The BAB you get from multiclassing your character between core classes will always be better than the BAB you will get from one prestige class added to your core one. The only exception is when you have a core class with low BAB (wiz, sorc) and you decide to take a class with a high BAB progression (El. Knight and Spellsword for example). The save bonuses can be given by other means, so I don't see much point in the concept of prestige classes as a whole.

 

Finally, the only positive point I have found about prestige classes is that they add in variety. You can literally turn your character into anything. With my house rules though, you make a ranger/assassin or ranger/shadowdancer just as easily. However, this is more complicated with some other prestige classes. For example, I have thought of turning the spellsword into some kind of fighter kit which would have the Channel Spell and Avoid spell failure abilities as well as a small spell table similar to that of a Paladin's. The problem is that a Wiz 9/ Fighter 1/ Spellsword 10 combo would allow me easy access to 7th level spells, which isn't the case in my variant class. Moreover, why should the kit be similar to a wiz/fighter build? To my knowledge, even a bard can apply to be a spellsword. The same can be said for the Bladesinger prestige class. I was thinking of making it a bard kit, but I then told myself that wiz and sorcs could apply to be bladesingers as well. Why should I limit the choices of my players?

 

Anyway, this is just food for thought. I am not sure yet about I should organize the class system in my house rules. I do like some of the prestige classes proposed but I do not like the implementation.

[cronicler]

One of the most stable but time consuming way to do this is by writing down the level 20 (for loong games) or the desired level (a game that will probably end before party gaet to level 12 from 3 for example) equvalent.

 

This is your base template (that is supposedly equal to other templates...) look at it and decide which parts are useless and which parts are sub par, what you would use (and don't have) and what you would not use but is in the progression... then tweak it with replacements and such.

 

Generally I allow my guys to have specific classes tailored for them and build the story/enemies on those. For example It gets really stupid to see a Roof Runner (Parkour runner and a gymnast) unable to dodge anything due to nonexistent AC. So I told him that he will be rolling reflex save for ac when he is trying not to get hit, so he is happy with his imba character.

 

In reality, what I roll with my rolls have no relevance in the game. I have the spell numbers and hps in front of me and I am tailoring the action to test their edges and make them bleed. The written sheets in front of the players is there to satisfy their Egos (IMO). It is what you give them that makes the play balanced or boring...

[ramza]

Exactly, one solution would be to transfom prestige classes into bases classes that go from lv 1 to lv 20. However, as I have already begun working on this path, it is a very time-consuming exercise and I am not even sure it will have a satisfactory result in the end.

 

Here are some examples of prestige classes that I have already incorporated into base classes (with their own tables):

 

Arcane archer: fighter with arcane spellcasting (spell progression is similar to a paladin's), 5 of the bonus feats are replaced with the arcane archer's special abilities.

 

Arcane trickster: rogue with arcane spellcasting (spell progression is similar to a paladin's) who just has trapfinding, trap sense, sneak attack (up to 5d6) and the arcane trickster's special abilities.

 

Spellsword: fighter with arcane spellcasting (spell progression is similar to a paladin's), 5 bonus feats (either fighter's feats or metamagic feats), progressive resistance to spellfailure, spell power (up to +5) and one special ability every 5 levels (channel spell, quick cast, etc) that can be chosen from a list.

 

Arcane Duelist: fighter with arcane spellcasting (spell progression is similar to a paladin's), 5 of the bonus feats are replaced with the arcane duelist's special abilities.

 

Duelist: fighter/rogue combo with d8 for Hitidie and 6 skill points per level, gets sneak attack (up to 5d6), 5 bonus feats and all of the duelist's special abilities.

 

Warpriest: fighter/cleric combo, gets the spell progression of a cleric normally, gets only one domain (war), doesn't get turn undead, the 5 extra feats that a cleric gets in my house rules are replaced by some of the warpriest's special abilities, heavy armor, tower shield and martial weapon proficiencies (in my house rules, clerics only get medium armor proficiency).

 

 

There is a problem however... Why make all these builds so specific? In other words, why do they have to be attached to a specific class? For example, my version of the arcane archer is some kind of fighter with limited spellcasting ability (making it a fighter kit), my version of the warpriest is some kind of fighter/cleric combo (making it a cleric kit), etc. When I made these sub-classes, I was trying to emulate the original prestige classes by combining the 11 core classes offered in the Phb (in the case of my variant arcane archer for example, it is something close to a fighter 10/wiz 10 combo more or less).

 

However, what would happen if one of my players didn't want to play an arcane archer as a fighter-based class but rather as a bard-based class (it is possible to make a bard/arcane archer with the 3.5 rules)? Another player may wish to play a warpriest as druid-based or spirit shaman-based class instead of a cleric-based one... Under those circumstances, the variant classes I am proposing are quite restrictive in terms of creativity...

 

I, thus, raise this question: How can I possibly make use of the prestige classes' cool features without having to burden my characters with useless abilities? To my eyes, even a cleric/warpriest character is a cripple: average turn undead ability, BAB not so different from a pure cleric, spellcasting ability limited to 8th level spells... Same for a wiz/arcane archer or bard/arcane archer: useless familiar and useless bard song and bardic knowledge abilities...No, seriously, I only see disadvantages in taking a prestige class under the current 3.5 rules. Even those prestige classes that are worth taking (arcane trickster, shadow adept, shadow dancer) are seriously overpowered compared to a pure base class...

 

The answer for prestige classes that span on 5 levels or less is quite simple. Replace some of the base classes' abilities with those of the prestige classes in question. However, my objective becomes more difficult to complete with prestige classes that have 10 levels... Maybe I should return to my concept of prestige feats where any player may choose at some point to pick a special ability here and there (provided they meet the prerequisites, which shall be the same as those of the prestige classes)...

 

Finally, there are even some prestige classes that cannot be put in any category. For example, the Harper scout/agent is some kind of hybrid prestige class that is open to all. It would be very restrictive to make it a bard-kit or a rogue-kit since basically even a fighter and a wizard can gain access to this prestige class.

 

These issues have really been bothering me and I am not sure how to proceed in order to create my own house rules... any suggestions are welcome and thanks for the input!

[cronicler]

I see that you have hit the problem of class restrictions of DnD. To be frank with you it is nearly impossible to emulate what you want with DnD rules as all the options are tied to feats and class abilities.

 

My personal solution (is extremely far from prefect I know) was to scrap DnD rules all together. I generally use a homecooked system mashed up from gurps and WW basics.

 

in the beginning the player has 12 stats. 4 Physical (Str, Ag, Con, Beauty), 4 Mental (Int, Per, Wis, Cha) and 4 Misc that are not written on "his" sheet (Sanity, Fate, Grounding, Luck) The 8 stats available to the player range from 9 to 12 for human norms. (other races usually have +2 to one or two stats and some - modifiers on social and other things as Humans are the norm.)

 

Then I sit down and discuss the character's concept with the player, which skills he has some experience or interest, what he doesn't like etc. This generally-translates to things like "archery +1" or "acrobatics +1" or "Cooking and Foraging +2" at most.

 

I use 3d6 as the normal control dice but allow the player to switch to d20 if he is going for reckless maneuvers.

Generally I use all these to tailor the dice rolls into story instead of the dnd way of dice rolls=story. It allows me to have more stable and description heavy game overall

 

 

 

Anyway If you want to or if you prefer to stay in DnD, the best way is to allow the special abilities like sneak attack, turn undead etc grow as if the player had taken a regular rogue or cleric level, if he is in a related path. (So no sneak attacks to thief turned into weapon master or arcane archer etc...)

Edited May 17, 2009 by cronicler

[ramza]

I guess I will take the option of prestige feats. Making a new ruleset is too much hassle. I have been tempted at times to use the SPECIAL system but it would be hard to recreate all the possibilities available in DnD with it...

 

For even more flexibility, many of the core classes' abilities will be turned into talents, feats, blessings with which the player may choose a special ability from a restricted list. For example, instead of automatically getting trap sense, a rogue will be able to choose between trap sense, acrobatics, slow fall, etc (but there will be some prerequisites for such abilities, but they won't be too demanding either)...

 

Of course, for simplicity's sake, I will be including standard builds for players that don't know what to do with their characters... The optional rules will be made for advanced players.

[cronicler]

I really suggest you take a close look at gurps. even if you don't use it, it has some nifty ideas that you can steal

Also I really hate DnD spell system, In my games I use a bastardized version of White Wolf powers

[ramza]

I just checked GURPS and downloaded the lite version. I admit it has some interesting ideas, especially concerning skills (in case I wish to use the d20 system in a modern setting), but other than that, it will be too much hassle integrating its rules in the DnD system.

 

I admit that DnD is not the best rules system out there and it is far from perfect. However, all my friends are familiar with it and have managed to understand all its intricacies. Moreover, despite its flaws, I have found the way it handles most things quite acceptable. I do not wish to make a major overhaul since this would break the whole system (I won't bother changing the monsters stats and abilities for example). So, I am just making some small changes to the character creation rules in the Phb: races, classes, skills and feats.

 

I have also thought of keeping the concept of prestige classes but to make some changes:

1) their bab will progress just the same as that of their core class counterparts

2) spellcasting prestige classes should allow the player to keep progressing with their turn undead ability and should allow their familiars/animal companions to gain levels as well

 

I will put some more thought into this and will post the results in this thread.

 

Cheers.

[cronicler]

To be fair, the 4th ed had the most usable prestige class system I guess. (You advance till lvl 10 in any class you want. then from 10 to 20 you can add 1 base class and 1 prestige class "progression" per level, pcs giving extra saves and abilities only, then at 20+ you add an epic progression on top of it.) Too bad most of the "good" ideas in it are drowned in a sea of "easy to use" "streamlined" "for lowest common denominator" s...

[ramza]

You are definitely right. The main problem with prestige classes is that they force you to multiclass.

I have bee thinking for a while and I have come up with a new idea:

 

As I have already said, where possible, I will replace the prestige classes with prestige feats as some of these just offer one or two new interesting abilities.

 

I will create some templates as well with which my players may be able to play some type of combo-type characters (just as I had mentioned in a previous post). Among these templates, there will be fighter-wizard, monk-cleric (or wizard), bard-fighter and rogue-wizard (or cleric) combos. I won't bother making more than a dozen of those (half of them have already been made anyway). I just want to add more variety in the game

 

Finally, I will keep some of the original prestige classes, since I cannot find how to implement them without making them too restrictive.

 

I will have to go through every Complete book and take a look at what can be done for each prestige class. This will take some time and I believe I will be doing this during my summer vacation.

 

I have attached to this post a sample of what I am doing. Beware, some stuff (feats) were copy-pasted from various websites and I haven't had the time to put some order in my notes. There are some unfinished builds as well...

Adventurer__Arcane_Rogue__Favored_Soul.doc

SCOUT_and_LIGHTNING_RUNNER.doc

[Maria Caliban]

I don't see how this is different from 4E's system.

[ramza]

How so? The Paragon paths are quite different from prestige classes.

Prestige feats may only be taken when a character gains a bonus feat. They do not add themselves to the usual class abilities one may get at level up.

 

I have also attached the changes (not complete yet) I have done to the core classes. I mainly got my inspiration from the Pathfinder rules.

ClassesI.rtf

ClassesII.rtf

[Walsingham]

The problem is, as croncicler says, that DnD rules make no goddamn realworld sense. They're just a levelling up architecture. As such, I guess they sink or swim based on whether your players enjoy them. I don't.

 

In general I like White Wolf, but in specific fantasy I love warhammer. They restrict your class because society says you can't do otherwise.