How did you get into the gaming industry?

[Bass-GameMaster]

Im only 16 3/4 but I go to a high curriculum high school... and ive been wondering is there a subject that has the most to do with the gaming industry? like math or science... Ive been modding games for awhile but I strive in ideas and storyline.. But im not a good writer... I understand grammar and all that my handwriting is so horrible I cant read it sometimes.. But I also have enjoyed watching videos on programmers... but im not sure what career could combine the both of them. I mean I can make ideas out of nowhere and draw a storyline in up to just 2-3hours... But I dont like to write... id rather type.. but at the same time I kind of want the "hands on" feel... Any help?

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"Nearly all degree courses in video gaming at British universities leave graduates unfit to work in the industry..."

Link

 

I read that too.

 

The issue is actually more to do with the obsession Universities have with teaching Java (A shower of ****e if I ever saw one), and the general "shying" away from low level control. Making a degree hard by having an emphisis on low level control, hence alienating students.

 

It's not just the games degree's it's CS degree's in general. Universities are interested in "getting students", and "passing students", this ironically ==

[Humodour]

Im only 16 3/4 but I go to a high curriculum high school... and ive been wondering is there a subject that has the most to do with the gaming industry? like math or science... Ive been modding games for awhile but I strive in ideas and storyline.. But im not a good writer... I understand grammar and all that my handwriting is so horrible I cant read it sometimes.. But I also have enjoyed watching videos on programmers... but im not sure what career could combine the both of them. I mean I can make ideas out of nowhere and draw a storyline in up to just 2-3hours... But I dont like to write... id rather type.. but at the same time I kind of want the "hands on" feel... Any help?

 

Anyway... I'll give you somewhat of an answer.

 

Mathematics is the closest subject to programming you'll ever do without actually doing programming (there is a huge overlap in the logical processes involved and abstract thinking skills utilised). Try and take the more advanced maths classes in highschool. Also related is that a lot of graphics programming involves linear algebra, which is the mathematics of vectors and matrices (which you might cover somewhat in calculus, trig or geometry).

 

As for writing... well, I thoroughly enjoyed English literature classes. It might sound weird, but I found analysing a poem or Shakespearean play to be a rather logical and entertaining process - quite similar to thinking about how to solve a coding problem in many ways. It's been my experience that creative writing isn't something you can learn in a year or two, though (it's mostly intuitive). The best you can do is pick up good style and structure tips from analysing the works of others (hence we arrive back at why it wouldn't hurt to take English literature).

 

I took a software design class for 2 years in high school. It taught a lot of valid stuff, but nothing you couldn't learn at university in first year, and it was very boring (probably because good software design is generally common sense). I'd generally recommend staying away from computer classes in highschool and experimenting with a nice starting language on your own until university (like Python, and to a lesser extent Haskell, Java or C++).

 

Science classes are great fun. You get to blow lots of stuff up, burn things, and melt stuff with acids in chemistry... but overall I'd say take it because you're interested in it, not because you expect it to help you with programming.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Ive started a new project with only one of my friends.. using the RPG Maker VX to create this game. Its looking good so far but it will take awhile because im doing some environments,all plot,allstory,and all dialogue. While waiting for my friend to get the scripting down, we probably need more people... right?

[Humodour]

Ive started a new project with only one of my friends.. using the RPG Maker VX to create this game. Its looking good so far but it will take awhile because im doing some environments,all plot,allstory,and all dialogue. While waiting for my friend to get the scripting down, we probably need more people... right?

 

Your time would be better spent learning how to programme. If you really insist on doing something involving game development during school, the Python SDL wrapper PyGame offers a great compromise between coding & control vs. rapid development & ease of use.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Ive started a new project with only one of my friends.. using the RPG Maker VX to create this game. Its looking good so far but it will take awhile because im doing some environments,all plot,allstory,and all dialogue. While waiting for my friend to get the scripting down, we probably need more people... right?

 

Your time would be better spent learning how to programme. If you really insist on doing something involving game development during school, the Python SDL wrapper PyGame offers a great compromise between coding & control vs. rapid development & ease of use.

 

What exactly is that? Details... And im not sure where to look for a younger programming class, my parents are hassling me thinking that I might slack-off if I take a off-campus class.

[Humodour]

My bad - I swore I posted a link.

 

Here: http://www.python.org/

 

If you're on Linux, you'll already have Python installed most likely.

 

Reference library: http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html

And a half reference, half tutorial: http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html

A tutorial more fit for beginners: http://www.sthurlow.com/python/

A tutorial for those with programming experience in other languages: http://www.diveintopython.org/

 

Pygame: http://www.pygame.org

Tutorials: http://www.pygame.org/wiki/tutorials

 

I'd suggest using the IDLE environment rather than DOS command line, as it is much more intuitive and smooth to do so.

 

As for classes... I'd be trying to pick it up in my spare time if I were you. It's an easy language to master and you've got one or two years before university.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I had a 3 hour interview yesturday... I'm wondering if that is excessive, previous interviews have lasted between 1 and a half to 2 hours.

[Rob Smith]

I had a 3 hour interview yesturday... I'm wondering if that is excessive, previous interviews have lasted between 1 and a half to 2 hours.

 

For a game programming job that actually seems a bit short. I would figure ~6 hours including a break for lunch is about right, but it all depends on the company, position, and how well they have felt you out ahead of time ( phone interviews, informal lunches and such)

[samm]

As for classes... I'd be trying to pick it up in my spare time if I were you. It's an easy language to master and you've got one or two years before university.

It also invites for writing inefficient* or not easy to understand (for others) programs, so try to keep your discipline Efficiency is easier to improve after you got it working and programmed and documented it in an understandable fashion than the other way around, in my experience.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I had a 3 hour interview yesturday... I'm wondering if that is excessive, previous interviews have lasted between 1 and a half to 2 hours.

 

For a game programming job that actually seems a bit short. I would figure ~6 hours including a break for lunch is about right, but it all depends on the company, position, and how well they have felt you out ahead of time ( phone interviews, informal lunches and such)

 

Of all the people I have met, even those with jobs, I haven't heard of a single person having a 6 hours interview, that's not to say it doesn't happen, I've just never experienced it, and nobody I know who has a job in the industry has told me of such an experience.

 

What I have noticed is that every company is different.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Python is the kind of language you offer to a designer for scripting, that should clearly demonstrate the complexity from a user perspective as designers ain't porgrammers , it's fairly loose, and free, its easy to embed into C/C++, dynamically typed, has garbage collection and so on...

 

You can also make games with it... Is it worth learning though? Sure. Is it a good first language? NO! Learn something which is type safe and requires strictness in its structure. C/C++ is the main language for games, I regret not having learnt it sooner.

 

It's also important to under objects as soon as possible, the amount of time I spent working in procedural languages did actually effect my ability to understand objects initially.

Edited July 19, 2008 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[AnthonyD]

"Nearly all degree courses in video gaming at British universities leave graduates unfit to work in the industry..."

Link

 

I read that too.

 

The issue is actually more to do with the obsession Universities have with teaching Java (A shower of ****e if I ever saw one), and the general "shying" away from low level control. Making a degree hard by having an emphisis on low level control, hence alienating students.

 

It's not just the games degree's it's CS degree's in general. Universities are interested in "getting students", and "passing students", this ironically ==

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I agree with my vegan powered co-worker.

 

Any programming language is just a tool in the toolbox. The important thing is leaning why and how the languages work, and most importantly of all, how to solve problems.

 

I'm not disputing this, what you say is true. It's always sensible to use the correct tool.

 

My point was more that they're shying away from core concepts of how languages work and what goes on under the hood so to speak, because it can alienate students, which is bad for the coffers. That doesn't mean that's always the case.

 

As far Java, it's the workhorse of alot of the computing industry, so it makes sense on that level, I'm mostly annoied by the omission of performance specific techniques in regards to C/C++.

 

I also don't think using Java as an educational language is an entirely bad idea, it certainly doesn't make bad programmers, it can result in people being unaware of things when they move to something like C++.

[theslug]

A 6 hour interview blows my mind. How is that even possible much less a 3 hour interview. What are you discussing your life story or something?

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I'm having a week long interview at the moment!

 

There's alot to programming I guess, and yeah they have to get to know you a little bit aswell.

[Francisco Rivas]

I'm having a week long interview at the moment!

 

There's alot to programming I guess, and yeah they have to get to know you a little bit aswell.

How long interviews are depends on the company and the situation. If the company is in your local area, you might be given a shorter interview because they know that they could always bring you back in if needed. On the other hand, if a company paid to fly you out to their studio, chances are you're going to be interviewing for a good portion of the day since it wouldn't be practical to bring you back out every couple of weeks.

 

3+ hour interviews are pretty common in the game industry. There usually isn't just one person grilling you for multiple hours. Most of the time, there are a series of interviews that each take an hour or less. The interviews are conducted by people on different teams within the company whose teams have different roles they're trying to fill. For example, a programmer could be interviewed by the gameplay teams for two different projects as well as the engine team. That would be 3 interviews right there, each of which could be anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. On top of that, there is the standard HR pre-interview where they tell you how things are going to work and you fill out some preliminary paperwork. If all goes well, you may be given a last interview with some senior person of the company for them to get a feel for where you want your career to go.

 

For my previous job at Microsoft, I flew out there twice. Each day was full of interviews. The schedule had me starting at 9am and finishing around 4ish. They have various product teams interview you for different positions at the company. The interviewers communicate between all the interviews so if one interviewer found an area that he thinks the next interviewer should delve deeper into, they will communicate that behind the scenes. So the interviews generally get progressively harder as the day goes by. The longer your day goes, the better you are doing. If you're still interviewing around 3pm, then chances are they're really interested.

 

Same goes for pretty much any company. If you're not all that good, they'll finish the interview(s) pretty quick. If they're interested in you, they'll ask you more and more questions to get a better feel for the kind of skills you bring to the table.

 

Francisco

[jlf2n]

Wow this thread took off. Those are some really great stories guys. Sorry I have been absent, but world building can be consuming. I have been so consumed with getting a PW launched that I have put most things on the back burner.

 

I guess I got lost in my own dungeon. I am still on the fence in what to do and when to do it. I already log about 30+ hours

Edited July 28, 2008 by jlf2n

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I think I want to work in the gaming industry. Problem is, I've never really coded, but I do have some rudimentary art skills. Somehow, I think I might be late.

[Bass-GameMaster]

Good News, I just started my first AP Computer Science class, we are currently learning Java. Ive heard once you've learned this language since its in Unicode you can learn all the other languages with ease. Which brings up my concern, a lot of gaming companys want C++ and such, does anyone think this will change? and if so am I just being worried for no reason?

[Joseph Bulock]

Good News, I just started my first AP Computer Science class, we are currently learning Java. Ive heard once you've learned this language since its in Unicode you can learn all the other languages with ease. Which brings up my concern, a lot of gaming companys want C++ and such, does anyone think this will change? and if so am I just being worried for no reason?

 

Most games do use some C, C++ or C#. That being said, the languages are not that different from Java, and learning good coding practices and object oriented principles will help you a great deal.

[samm]

(Psst, look up Unicode in Wikipedia or similar )

Indeed, don't worry if you've got the principles of Java and feel comfortable using it, C# shouldn't make you afraid, as they have a lot in common. C++ is more open in terms of concepts and low level possibilites. C isn't object oriented at all, but still, you have no reason to be afraid of it if you can program in other standard languages.

If you want to see different approaches to programming, have a look at LabView, Prolog, and Lisp (or Matlab) I don't think they are important to game programming, but broadening your horizon is never bad

[Humodour]

You can also make games with it... Is it worth learning though? Sure. Is it a good first language? NO! Learn something which is type safe and requires strictness in its structure. C/C++ is the main language for games, I regret not having learnt it sooner.

 

That's absolutely not correct.

 

Python is strongly typed (as well as duck typed). Python programmes are typically small, clear and concise by virtue of the language. I honestly don't understand how you could imply that Python's structure isn't type safe or strict unless you'd never used it before.

 

C/C++ however, are NOT strongly typed - they are in no way type safe, and their structure often leads to much confusion. When we did our C course in second year the majority of it involved going over all the reasons C is dangerous to code in (since we'd just come from Java and Haskell): pitfalls, traps, poor style, etc. Of course, this is also what makes it so powerful (and we learnt it alongside ASM for good measure), but I am strongly critical of the claim that C/C++ are good starting languages.

 

Moreover, I find this idea that learning one programming paradigm first prevents you from learning others properly later quite amusing.

 

Bass: You're learning Java, so don't worry. Java isn't a perfect language, but it has its moments, and it's OK to start with. You'll also want to pick up Python and C soon, too (within the next 2 years ideally). If you're game, try out Haskell. It'll work wonders for your abstract thinking skills and algorithm design.

 

Programming isn't something that you learn new each time you do a different language. It's something you learn in maybe 2 or 3 ways and then you're set for life. You can transfer most of the stuff you learn in Java across to Python and C (threads, loops, conditionals, regexps, GUI, aspects of object orientation, etc). In Python you won't need to learn anything new besides the syntax - you'll be surprised how isomorphic they are, with Python having superior ease of use. With C you'll need to pick up some new low-level stuff like pointer arithmetic, memory management and type safety, but again these skills will then be mostly transferable across to things like C++ and ASM. You will also eventually learn algorithm and data structure design, and no doubt you'll pick up complexity analysis and recursion skills there - these are skills that carry over to things like functional programming (Haskell, LISP). A possible fourth thing you might pick up is parallel programming (Ada, Java mainly), which is basically an in depth look at threads (with emphasis on things like learning how to debug threads and preventing gridlock).

Edited September 18, 2008 by Krezack

[samm]

Just a little clarification: C isn't object oriented at all. Also, I think it is a good language to start learning because it is rather low level with pointers and having to manage memory etc. In my opinion this helps to become more conscious about what programming actually means and how to be careful with your resources. Also, it will be a revelation to switch language from C to something more modern and have objects and flexibility and a lot of datatypes etc.

Python is nice and powerful, but it is at least one layer above C++, literally.

Edited September 18, 2008 by samm

[Humodour]

Arg, I knew somebody would pull me up for that, so I edited it to say 'aspects of OO'. I mean data structures and design that resembles OO like parallel arrays, structs, and modularisation. I should have changed C to C/C++. Pfah!

 

The issue of 'what is the best starting language?' is one with a myriad of stances and equally a myriad of proponents of each stance. I understand yours, and it carries merit; I found Python simple, elegant and powerful (like Haskell) in part because I'd been dealing with its orangutan cousins (Java, C) previously. But if I had started out with Python, I imagine I'd feel some indignation at the notion of having to code in C... like typing on a keyboard while wearing boxing gloves. Although even that analogy is misleading because it ignores the control one gains with low-level languages (desired or not).