Helping to lose

[Walsingham]

Colrom, I certainly accept that this thread began in a NATO centric way. But I seem to recall inviting divergent opinions. It would be ludicrous of me to pretend otherwise given my well known views on this matter.

 

However, I don't accept your statement about total moral relativism. Some of the terms I am referring to may be loaded in other mouths, but they are mere statements for me. A soldier is a set of mechanical characteristics, just as an insurgent is an insurgent rather than, say, a window cleaner.

 

Even if we assume the thread to be NATO biased I still feel there is much of interest in the debate, in terms of how people make judgements, and interact with their political/national environment. One might equally well ask why people DO support the insurgents!

[metadigital]

Every poll of the citizenry shows that the people want us out.  Citizens believe that our presence is exascerbating the problem; several military leaders have publicly agreed, much to the chagrin of the whitehouse.  Also, there is disagreement inside the "government" of Iraq... I use that term loosely because despite being elected, these officials are working more like individual despots than a cohesive congressional body... and several of those elected officials have stated repeatedly that they wish the US out, and out now. 

 

I'm surprised you haven't seen film footage of some of those Iraqi officials on CNN.  I certainly have seen several such incidents over the past year or so.

 

That is what I based my statement on... published polls of the Iraqi people, and repeated statements by various Iraqi officials, both on camera and quoted by various news media.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I haven't heard the information you are referring to (I am not a citizen of North America, so I am deprived of the privilege of watching CNN: I prefer to get my news elsewhere, such as the BBC World Service ) and I haven't seen any poll reports such like, either.

 

I have seen the Iraqi Foreign Secretary interviewed on the BBC in the last month, and that was why I was fairly sure of myself.

 

Again, as I said to colrom, it's not up to foreigners to tell the Iraqi people what they want, when they have a legally and unequivocally democratically elected government. A bit like the citizens of the USA didn't particularly appreciate it when a British newspaper took out full page advertisements in the local papers prior to the last Presidential election explaining why the locals needed to vote Bush out of office. :D

 

Using the prism of "good governance" to examine other governments is a dangerous precedent ... because it is very easy to reverse the process, and not many incumbents are interested in taking the hypocrisy-rectitude test ...

 

Support and respect are two different things.  Soldiers make their decisions as necessary and I'll respect those decisions if they're reasonable; doesn't mean I will support what they're doing - and hence them - in a war.

 

The only way to get my support is to not fight in the war - ie to quit the service, regardless of the consequences.  That does not mean that only soldiers who quit the service & face court marshal are worthy of my respect, or that I think that this is practical or reasonable for them to do - it's simply the fact of the matter in terms of how much I can support soldiers in a bad war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a very easy opinion to have, if your young family isn't depending on you for their nurturing, especially if you are not blessed with a wealthy background and/or a college education. The armed forces provide a very reasonable career for people who might otherwise have very limited options, even with the risk of an unwanted war. But you don't have to worry about that, obviously, so you are quite free to make swingeing statements about the morality or lack thereof of these people.

[Walsingham]

I mentioned this thread to a chap I met on the train who was in the Forces, and his response was to the effect that people were very happy to criticise

 

a) those nasty men with the guns and

b) a foreign policy that was focussed on improving domestic circumstances

 

But you somehow never saw them relinquishing the benefits of the state they were in. This argument echoes Al Qaida statements that all US/Uk citizens are guilty of the 'crimes' of our governments. In short, criticising the soliders for not quitting the Army is no different to you being criticised for not leaving teh country.

 

I have my own views on this argument, but I promised him I'd put it to you.

[thepixiesrock]

What do you think this is? Some sort of discussion forum where anyone and everyone has a chance to speak their minds? No. If that guy wanted to state his opinion, then he should have joined, and then after the initial first month of being picked on, made fun of, and overly criticised, if he still stuck around, then he could give us his opinion.

[Walsingham]

What do you think this is?  Some sort of discussion forum where anyone and everyone has a chance to speak their minds?  No.  If that guy wanted to state his opinion, then he should have joined, and then after the initial first month of being picked on, made fun of, and overly criticised, if he still stuck around, then he could give us his opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You forgot the frog eating.

[thepixiesrock]

Even if that was true then I'd still pretend that it wasn't.

[Walsingham]

Even if that was true then I'd still pretend that it wasn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good idea. It's probably more of a surprise when the frogs arrive by post with instructions that unless they are consumed posting privileges will be disabled.

[metadigital]

I mentioned this thread to a chap I met on the train who was in the Forces, and his response was to the effect that people were very happy to criticise

 

a) those nasty men with the guns and

b) a foreign policy that was focussed on improving domestic circumstances

 

But you somehow never saw them relinquishing the benefits of the state they were in. This argument echoes Al Qaida statements that all US/Uk citizens are guilty of the 'crimes' of our governments. In short, criticising the soliders for not quitting the Army is no different to you being criticised for not leaving teh country.

 

I have my own views on this argument, but I promised him I'd put it to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He wasn't posting here under the name "Azarkon", was he? "

[Walsingham]

It wasn't Azarkon, and nor was I accurately representing his ability to spell. I apologise.

[metadigital]

No need to apologise for Azarkon, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, however skewed they are. "