Masters in CS

[sam.collins]

As the pic suggests I am pretty much burnt out rummaging around the net for the correct information pertinent to a Masters in CS with Game Programming as the focus... All right, here's the deal... I am doing a traditional Bachelors in CS and I am in my senior year now and am planning to do a Masters in CS that focuses on Game Programming... I want to break into the Gaming Industry with style (no arrogance) i.e go ahead and start solving cool and tough problems at the place I work for(hopefully EA/ACTIVISION/MICROSOFT GAME STUDIOS/...)...

 

And here are the connundrums that I am faced with:

 

(1) DigiPen offers M.S in CS and everything seems perfect... But at times some studios tend to have more ppl from CMU's ETC... Why is that..?

 

(2) CMU's MET curriculum just is so delusional... I mean did you have a look... Whats it got I have no clue... Semester 1: there's improvisational acting(Cool), and building virtual worlds(fine) and thats it... Semester 2,3,4 has project sessions and electives... Is it enough to give you an edge in Game Programming... Unless I am missing the big picture...

 

(3) Is there anything that is better than these two... I have considered FIEA... their curriculum is decent and I might think of it if I dont get into DigiPen...

 

Please give me real and possitive advice coz (concentrate here), I am an international student and I dont want to go over there and find out that I already know this stuff or I should not weep that I could have done this by myself and worry abt the drowning money....

 

Thanks... Please reply guys... I am desperate for an answer... Coz I need to choose...

 

Sam Collins...

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I'd go for the digipen one personally (Currently doing a degree in Computer Games Programming myself), far as I was concerned and still am concerned from my current experience, you can slap "Computer Games Programming" all over the cover, if its not games related (The digipen one is I beieve) it's an irrelivant waste of time, the degree Im currently doing is, well lets just say it's CS with some focus on games, the academic side of CS winds me up something rotten, sure you learn about loads of basic and advanced techniques for general coding problems, which is great but they're certainly not so relivant as say solutions for scene rendering, and spatial partitioning?

 

I've spent so much time learning how to code games from books that I've often asked myelf why i am even at University, then I am reminded that companies tend to want that piece of paper saying the applicant has done a degree.

 

The result of the academic route is a comical one at best, I've seen folk who can barely code get themselves A's and B's in academic classes, while failing to achieve the basics in the games classes and that's when they're provided with a game engine!!! (A FPS style camera for example, I've seen people hand such things in as a 3 month project!)

 

I really would go for Digipen you'll learn something worthwhile!

[Diamond]

I'd go for the digipen one personally (Currently doing a degree in Computer Games Programming myself), far as I was concerned and still am concerned from my current experience, you can slap "Computer Games Programming" all over the cover, if its not games related (The digipen one is I beieve) it's an irrelivant waste of time, the degree Im currently doing is, well lets just say it's CS with some focus on games, the academic side of CS winds me up something rotten, sure you learn about loads of basic and advanced techniques for general coding problems, which is great but they're certainly not so relivant as say solutions for scene rendering, and spatial partitioning?

 

I've spent so much time learning how to code games from books that I've often asked myelf why i am even at University, then I am reminded that companies tend to want that piece of paper saying the applicant has done a degree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you've got wrong expectations about your degree. It is supposed to be academic and is purposed ot educate, not train. You can learn specific skills by yourself, but a CS degree will teach you basic building blocks of every CS-related problem.

 

I am in my seniour year of a CS degree and I have never considered it to be a waste of time. It helped me to develop the "right" way of thinking, now I can take unfamiliar CS problem and systematically solve it, be it graphics programming, operating systems, web applications or something else.

 

The result of the academic route is a comical one at best, I've seen folk who can barely code get themselves A's and B's in academic classes, while failing to achieve the basics in the games classes and that's when they're provided with a game engine!!! (A FPS style camera for example, I've seen people hand such things in as a 3 month project!)

 

I really would go for Digipen you'll learn something worthwhile!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not the issue of the degree, but of the people who do said degree. Some of them do not realize that university only educates, not trains. They may have good knowledge of lecture material, but they don't go beyond that to tackle problems in their free time. You have to be motivated to learn new things on your own to make a degree a worthwhile experience.

 

 

 

Honestly, I think you are going the right way. University CS degree will give you the fundamentals, you can always learn specific skills by yourself (from what I can see you have already made a good progress in it ).

[sam.collins]

Guys,

 

Thanks for taking your time to reply but the answers are kinda vague and succint... I do understand that a traditional bachelors in CS provides the bastions for all round programming and that's why I took it up in first place... I am in my senior year and I need someone to lend me a hand to choose the right school for pursuing a masters in CS with game programming as the focus... The schools I shortlisted are mentioned above... Please pass on your comments pertinent to them and give me your preferences as to which you would attend...

 

Thanks,

Sam Collins...

[Hurlshort]

Your posts are seriously hard to read. Why do you use the ellipsis after every sentence? Do you understand the importance of writing skills within a professional environment?

 

http://www.englishplus.com/grammar/00000138.htm

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I'd go for the digipen one personally (Currently doing a degree in Computer Games Programming myself), far as I was concerned and still am concerned from my current experience, you can slap "Computer Games Programming" all over the cover, if its not games related (The digipen one is I beieve) it's an irrelivant waste of time, the degree Im currently doing is, well lets just say it's CS with some focus on games, the academic side of CS winds me up something rotten, sure you learn about loads of basic and advanced techniques for general coding problems, which is great but they're certainly not so relivant as say solutions for scene rendering, and spatial partitioning?

 

I've spent so much time learning how to code games from books that I've often asked myelf why i am even at University, then I am reminded that companies tend to want that piece of paper saying the applicant has done a degree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you've got wrong expectations about your degree. It is supposed to be academic and is purposed ot educate, not train. You can learn specific skills by yourself, but a CS degree will teach you basic building blocks of every CS-related problem.

 

I am in my seniour year of a CS degree and I have never considered it to be a waste of time. It helped me to develop the "right" way of thinking, now I can take unfamiliar CS problem and systematically solve it, be it graphics programming, operating systems, web applications or something else.

 

The result of the academic route is a comical one at best, I've seen folk who can barely code get themselves A's and B's in academic classes, while failing to achieve the basics in the games classes and that's when they're provided with a game engine!!! (A FPS style camera for example, I've seen people hand such things in as a 3 month project!)

 

I really would go for Digipen you'll learn something worthwhile!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not the issue of the degree, but of the people who do said degree. Some of them do not realize that university only educates, not trains. They may have good knowledge of lecture material, but they don't go beyond that to tackle problems in their free time. You have to be motivated to learn new things on your own to make a degree a worthwhile experience.

 

 

 

Honestly, I think you are going the right way. University CS degree will give you the fundamentals, you can always learn specific skills by yourself (from what I can see you have already made a good progress in it ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*Sigh* I didn't choose to do a CS degree, I chose a computer games programming degree, had I chosen CS degree then I would agree with you but I didn't.

 

Other than that! You're right, but our said questioner was looking for something to help him with Computer Games related problems. (CS topics are helpful, but you've never got the same issues to deal with).

 

CS you never have to worry about, mathmatics, physics, or general speed in the same light.

In games you care about speed speed and more speed and it's not easy even with the nice CS background to get speed, or understand the math for rotating 3D objects, nor even basic collision detection.

 

This is why I mentioned Digipen to our reader as being the best option as you're more likely to learn required skills there.

[alanschu]

What school offers a specific "Computer Games Programming" degree?

 

CS you never have to worry about, mathmatics, physics, or general speed in the same light.

In games you care about speed speed and more speed and it's not easy even with the nice CS background to get speed, or understand the math for rotating 3D objects, nor even basic collision detection

 

Speed has always been a large priority in my CS program. So much so that you actually lose marks on projects if they don't run fast enough. The situation was emphasized even more in my AI courses, particularly because the course teaches you about heuristics, and wants you to use the heuristics to speed up your search. Getting the correct result in the end was essential, but if you did it too slowly, you lost marks.

 

We also have courses designed specifically around 3D graphics applications. The most recent project that course had was to actually build an FPS style game.

 

It seems as though it may be more of a "your mileage may vary" when dealing with CS degrees from a variety of schools.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In any case, for the original poster, from what I have heard directly from John Buchanan, the University Liaison for Electronic arts, is that most "computer game programming" schools are, to quote, "garbage." He did mention the odd exception, and while I don't remember which one exactly, he did state that it had a Masters program. So maybe it is DigiPen. Their experience was that for the most part, students from these schools did not perform as well as students with "just" a standard CS degree.

 

At the same time, he also mentioned that Electronic Arts has significantly higher standards for applicants coming out with a Graduate Degree rather than as an Undergraduate degree. If they don't consider you to be an expert in whatever field you choose (Computer Game Programming seems a little vague. You'll likely need to narrow it down a bit to have an idea on what you'd want your thesis to be about), you would not be hired. The reasoning behind this is that if you weren't an expert, you didn't spend your time effectively enough while going for your degree. Having said that, if you do well in getting your Masters, you probably will be an expert. Just don't necessarily expect an advantage in getting hired over an applicant with just a BSc because you have an MSc. Especially considering applicants with just a BSc are typically willing to work for a lower wage.

 

Again, it may be a "your mileage may vary" depending on the game company.

Edited July 6, 2006 by alanschu

[sam.collins]

Guys,

 

Please give me a direct answer to this question. Which of the following three school has a better curriculum that is tailer made for game programmers and has an excellent placement record.

 

(1) DigiPen (MS in CS)

(2) FIEA (MS in Interactive Entertainment)

(3) CMU (Masters of Entertainment Technology)

 

P.S: I am an international student, so I have to absolutely sure that I land on a job after my graduation.

 

Sam Collins

[alanschu]

Well, I doubt any of us went to that school, so you're not going to get a direct answer. On the whole, I have heard bad things about schools that focus in game programming, but that some of the ones that offer Masters programs are actually ok.

 

As for something that makes "absolutely sure that you land a job after your graduation," I can safely say that none of them will provide this guarantee. The only things that would "guarantee" you getting a job in the games industry right out of school are personal traits (you know, ambition, motivation, etc.), that I doubt any of the schools you listed would provide any more of compared to a different school. All else being equal, the only real leg up a school can give you is the credibility and prestige that it has. For instance, a Masters graduate in CS from MIT is more likely to kick your ass, all things being equal, than you as a graduate student from any of the game programming schools you listed up above. Simply because it has that reputation.

 

If you want more specific answers, you should actually contact the schools to see what the success rate of their graduates are in getting hired as a game programmer, as well as contacting the places that you want to work, and seeing what their opinion of these schools are.

Edited July 9, 2006 by alanschu

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

What school offers a specific "Computer Games Programming" degree?

 

In the United Kingdom there are a fair few, the University of Huddersfield where i attend is an example of a University which offers courses with a focus on games, while i moan alot about the CS stuff I do see how it fits with everything.

 

The some of lecturer's at Huddersfield have worked in he games industry, one even runs a mobile phone game company based in Huddersfield, where he offers some students placements.

 

CS you never have to worry about, mathmatics, physics, or general speed in the same light.

In games you care about speed speed and more speed and it's not easy even with the nice CS background to get speed, or understand the math for rotating 3D objects, nor even basic collision detection

 

Speed has always been a large priority in my CS program. So much so that you actually lose marks on projects if they don't run fast enough. The situation was emphasized even more in my AI courses, particularly because the course teaches you about heuristics, and wants you to use the heuristics to speed up your search. Getting the correct result in the end was essential, but if you did it too slowly, you lost marks.

 

We also have courses designed specifically around 3D graphics applications. The most recent project that course had was to actually build an FPS style game.

 

It seems as though it may be more of a "your mileage may vary" when dealing with CS degrees from a variety of schools.

 

As you say i think it depends where you attend, naturally efficiancy is of major importance in anything one writes, AI is an interesting field where I agree speed is so important I can see why, especially with heuristics in regards, i assume to that of pathfinding, something I tackled in my first year and perhaps the most interesting thing I have coded to date, while I never fully completed the program as I originally concieved it to be I had a program that would effciantly run hundreds of bots in a maze, but as the assignment didn't require specifics in terms of efficiancy(so I never tested for it, I was lucky as it was an assignment I was allowed to set for myself), I can't be sure how fast, but it was an on the fly pathfinding algorithm, that figued out the next step per agent per cycle.

 

A peer of mine tackled the problem in a similar fashion, accept he took a more tried and tested route of a typical A* algorithm, it wasn't anywhere near as efficient, but it was alot more accurate.

 

I'm certainly interested in what you wrote.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In any case, for the original poster, from what I have heard directly from John Buchanan, the University Liaison for Electronic arts, is that most "computer game programming" schools are, to quote, "garbage."  He did mention the odd exception, and while I don't remember which one exactly, he did state that it had a Masters program.  So maybe it is DigiPen.  Their experience was that for the most part, students from these schools did not perform as well as students with "just" a standard CS degree. 

 

At the same time, he also mentioned that Electronic Arts has significantly higher standards for applicants coming out with a Graduate Degree rather than as an Undergraduate degree.  If they don't consider you to be an expert in whatever field you choose (Computer Game Programming seems a little vague.  You'll likely need to narrow it down a bit to have an idea on what you'd want your thesis to be about), you would not be hired.  The reasoning behind this is that if you weren't an expert, you didn't spend your time effectively enough while going for your degree.  Having said that, if you do well in getting your Masters, you probably will be an expert.  Just don't necessarily expect an advantage in getting hired over an applicant with just a BSc because you have an MSc.  Especially considering applicants with just a BSc are typically willing to work for a lower wage.

 

Again, it may be a "your mileage may vary" depending on the game company.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This may or may not be true I'm unsure, as my current degree is certainly a CS degree with Games Programming modules, its a very new thing, but I think the advantage is that you're made aware of alot of things in regards to that of techniques that you don't touch at all if simply doing a CS degree, not to my knowledge atleast, can't speak for all.

 

You also get the experience of working with game engines, this isn't something a CS student couldn't do just as easily, but the experience can be helpful.

 

for example here are a few things that I've covered which I don't believe CS students would touch upon, unless they took specific modules.

 

3D Programming with api's such as Direct X & OpenGL

- Loading Models

- Animating models

- Object rotation

- Time based movement

- collision detection

etc...

 

Game engine structure.

Application of CS techniques in games (Using graphs in AI springs to mind, and how to do it etc...)

Shader languages such as HLSL.

Spatial Partitioning techniuqes such as quadtree's and octree's (also used for collision detection)

Mathmatics required for games.

Edited July 10, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[alanschu]

This may or may not be true I'm unsure, as my current degree is certainly a CS degree with Games Programming modules, its a very new thing, but I think the advantage is that you're made aware of alot of things in regards to that of techniques that you don't touch at all if simply doing a CS degree, not to my knowledge atleast, can't speak for all.

 

Sounds like it's still technically a CS degree though, just with a focus in games programming.

 

 

for example here are a few things that I've covered which I don't believe CS students would touch upon, unless they took specific modules.

 

3D Programming with api's such as Direct X & OpenGL

- Loading Models

- Animating models

- Object rotation

- Time based movement

- collision detection

etc...

 

Naturally. Though any CS student that is interested in games is likely going to take those courses anyways. Though it depends.

 

My friend works on tools at Bioware, and he didn't bother with a lot of those courses and it likely wasn't needed anyways.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Sounds like it's still technically a CS degree though, just with a focus in games programming.

 

That is very much what it is!

 

 

Naturally.  Though any CS student that is interested in games is likely going to take those courses anyways.  Though it depends.

 

My friend works on tools at Bioware, and he didn't bother with a lot of those courses and it likely wasn't needed anyways.

 

It wasn't a matter of saying "oh I'd like to do this course and this course", you either do CGP, or CS, the CS sudents don't do the games related stuff and don't have the option to as far as I am aware. But in the event of which naturally, one would choose such modules if desired, if the choice was availible.

 

Tools, aren't really the same kettle of fish, they don't have the same requirements.

Someone writing Tools to aid in the games development, Tools being often a little bit sensative, shattered, or in brief buggy, Unless it is a requirement for them to be released. So required coding skills, are dependant upon what the tool is intended to do, surely. It's not the same, but it share the common CS ground.

[merry andrew]

Any MS degree you get won't matter much unless you've learned to teach yourself things. gamedev.net is a good resource.

 

DigiPen's Master's program is pretty young, they may have one set of few graduates at this point. I went there for two years (for the BS degree) expecting to be taught game programming from the ground up, and found myself bored with most of lectures, failing my classes due to a lack of interest, and learning almost everything from the Internet. I'd only recommend the school if the tuition won't hurt much, you're comfortable teaching yourself things, you want to be in an environment where everyone is a game developer, and you just really really really want to go to school next to Nintendo.

 

Overall it was a good experience for me because now I'm really comfortable learning programming from Internet resources and I don't feel the dire need to pay anyone for instruction

[sam.collins]

Hey Andrew,

 

I am really surprised by your reply. Anyways, do you know anything about the CMU's program or the FIEA's program. See, the problem is I am an international student, so I cannot apply to any of the jobs at the US as I should have graduated from an university at US. So no matter what I will have to pick a school and graduate so that I can make most of the things easy for me. So please let me which school you suggest would help me make a good game programmer out of myself. I dont want a school that teaches me everything from ground up. All I look for in a school is some quality teaching, good fellow students with whom I can make a quality demo and stuff and the school must have good industry contacts so that I can get an internship. Considering this please reply.

 

Thanks,

Sam Collins

[merry andrew]

I don't know much about those other programs, sorry. I don't really understand why you need to graduate from a school in the U.S. in order to get a job with a U.S. company... it seems to me that most companies are just going to care about whether or not you can do the work. That's what you'll get told at DigiPen, anyway. A degree means almost nothing compared to a portfolio.

 

From what I can tell, a degree doesn't mean that you can do the work, it just means that you know how to finish something, have potential, and have been exposed to certain ideas. If you really want to impress people, do your own research and make some demos (for anything... graphics, physics, ai, etc.) so people can see what you're capable of. If you're almost done with a CS degree, I'm assuming you have the knowledge to start learning game programming. Forgive me if you've already worked on game projects, but if not, at least please poke around the Internet and see if you can muster up a demo by yourself before you ship yourself off to a school.

 

Go ahead and apply, but really try to get familiar with the practices before you make a choice, as I think such knowledge will help you with your choice.