BREAKING NEWS: NEW NWN2 PREVIEW

[Gromnir]

btw, while we applaud josh's desire to get the core right, ('cause we is almost as snobbish as he is 'bout such things,) one wonders how the fans will react. part o' the formula for movie sequels is to always gets bigger explosions and crazier fight scenes, right? similar line o' thinking exists in games. sequels in crpgs offer More Powhaz and More 10075 than predecessors. compare bg2 available character development and loot options to bg1. fallout 2 v. fallout? kotor2 v. kotor? .

 

josh and Gromnir can point out that a genuine core implementation of d&d gives far more character options than nwn and all the expansions combined, but the average fan probably ain't gonna see it that way. where is all the prestige classes and 1337 abilities?

 

*shrug*

 

we thinks josh is doing the right way... but sometimes the right way ain't what people want.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps

 

drow is munchkiny, specially with stoopid sunlight adaptation feats, but they keeps finding their way into pnp and crpg games 'cause that is what fans want... and the developers know that the fans want powerful drow. sometimes the smart developer simply gotta cave to will of the masses.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Gromnir

[kumquatq3]

Horses don't belong in the Realms, or the devs would have added them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Low blow :D

[Darque]

Horses don't belong in the Realms, or the devs would have added them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm glad we're on teh same page :D

 

 

As a side note: What is the ghostfoot halfling's abilty anyway? I hate halflings so I never bother reading up on them.

[Judge Hades]

Ghostwise halflings have the ability to communicate telepathically.

[Darque]

Oh, is that all?

[Judge Hades]

Pretty much. Everything else about them is pretty standard. Favored class is barbarian and not psion, or any psionic class.

[Lare Kikkeli]

sometimes they also flip out and kill people.

[kumquatq3]

Oh, is that all?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If only you could be a zombie...

[Judge Hades]

sometimes they also flip out and kill people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You never want to piss off a ghostwise halfling devotee of Malar. THey will rip your head off and drink your blood while playing with your intestines.

[Kaftan Barlast]

From what Ive read in the psionics book for 3.5, Psionics is nothing but another version of magic. The "spells" are the same effect and rulewise but their descriptions are rewritten to fit a psionic theme.

 

 

So if you already have magic, psionics are redundant. A psionic belongs in apsionic campaign and nowhere else.

[Judge Hades]

I don't like baseline DnD Psionics.

[Cantousent]

I'll save the larger psionic conversation for later. Partly because we could devote a whole thread to the subject and a lot of us would probably have some extensive comments. To be fair, partly because I have a personal dislike of psionics that really doesn't have a place in discussing the merits of the game.

 

However, I disagree that sticking with the core characters is a grave risk. It is a risk, but then again virtually every design decision is a risk. Straying very far from the core classes and races is a risk as well.

 

The rules allow for a wonderful variety in the first place. As you've cited, Gromnir, the core rules are quite flexible in the first place. Most, not all, of the expansions don't really give more freedom. Rather, they are limiting. Fair enough, there will always be limits in any game.

 

We've had this discussion before, and I suppose it's pointless to keep at it, but I've got a few minutes to waste. Since that's the case, I'll reiterate my previous comments regarding character classes.

 

The core classes allow for wonderful role-playing opportunities. If the design team wants to create a guild that specializes in the recovery of lost artifacts, let's say, then that's part of the campaign setting. The player may join the guild and face limitations from the very beginning. The first limitation might be something akin to taking an oath. Fair enough, that's limiting, but the limit is self-imposed. The player now has a choice of joining the guild and taking the oath or not. Once he's taken the oath, the player has a choice of staying true to his oath or not.

 

All is well and good. Now, the next limit hits. The guild might charge dues. The dues could go to operating expenses for the guildhall or funding expeditions for artifact recovery. The player has to choose whether or not to pay the dues. That's another choice on the part of the player. Stay in the guild, follow the oath, and pay the dues or not. Perhaps the guild would take a service in lieu of money. Provide the service or provide the cash? Make a decision.

 

Furthermore, the guild probably requires some sort of service. Why does the guild recover lost artifacts? Is it a museum? Is it a school? Is the artifact recovery part of a larger plan to gain power? These are questions that spring from the campaign rather than a splat book. The motives behind the guild masters, let alone the guild members, are almost certainly varied if not disparate. choices choices choices

 

So, the player can choose to support any one faction in the guild. If he chooses to throw in his weight with the faction that studies and preserves the artifacts, he'll probably need to devote at least some skill points to knowlege skills. If he's more into artifact recovery, he'll undoubtedly want to invest in bluff, information gathering, and diplomacy. He might even want to save the population from evil artifacts. What skills and feats would he need? Perhaps he even fashions artifacts.

 

Ultimately, however, advancement in the guild should not rely on a strictly predetermined set of skills and/or feats. Most advancement should come as the result of undertaking and completing various missions or tasks. Sure, some skills or feats might make those tasks easier. Perhaps some tasks require particular skills or feats. For example, advancement might entail passing an exam. Knowledge would almost certainly be a requirement. Still, advancement should almost always be performance related rather than forcing the character to check off items on a grocery list of skills/feats/spells/attributes/whatever.

 

As the character progresses, he would still keep his core class, but now he's added something to it. He'll always be a fighter, but now he's a Artificer of the fifth rank in the guild Artifact Mongers. As a member of the guild, and as someone who has proved his worth, he has access to specialized education (skills), training (feats), and minor artifacts (items). Instead of forcing the player down an ever narrowing track, his new "prestige" status allows for more freedom and options.

 

Finally, such a formula would be part of the game from the backstory up. Rather than including a bunch of different "prestige classes," some of which don't even lend themselves very well to the vision of the design, the developers can custom make everything. The story remains far more cohesive.

 

Of course, the ship has sailed on this one, but I would much rather see something like this than the prestige classes as WotC has created and implemented them.

[Darque]

To be honest, most of the non-core base classes are just variations, nothing really new.

 

Except for the Warlock and Binder.

[Kaftan Barlast]

If D&D was a good system, you wouldnt have classes in the first place but you could put together a character however you wanted it.

 

 

edit: *snip* It made sense in my head. Apparently it didnt translate that well into writing.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[Darque]

[Musopticon?]

Kaftan is under influence.

 

Nyah nyah.

[Cantousent]

I understand what you're saying, Kaftan, but that's another argument. It's like the psionics thing. We could make reasonable arguments on all sides, but that's not the point.

 

If we're going to discuss DnD, core classes are part of the discussion. What I've detailed is still DnD. It's just taking the core material and going a different direction. I'm halfway convinced that half the prestige classes were created to force players to take some of the less popular skills and feats.

[metadigital]

Good.  Focus on the core classes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Recently there's been some pushing and shoving about the priority of features and balance. My stance is always the same: core before more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perfectly sane.

I've always hated psionics in DnD.  I mean, from the very beginning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's because your little brain couldn't relate to the totally sweet and awesomeness of a psionic character! Psionics FTW! ... Because I'm not-so-secretly psionic.

Psionics are awesome  (w00t)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(w00t)

....but don't fit into the forgettable realms

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:'(

[Cantousent]

You're secretly a doofus. Oops. I guess it's not a secret any longer.

[Gromnir]

Oh, is that all?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

actually, if we recall right, it is even less than that. ghostwise can communicate telepathically with another creature they gots a languge in common with at a very short range. simply call it a Spirit Voice instead of telepathy and the minor ability goes from psionic to mystic... explain as being some kinda link with nature or quasi-druidic ability. problem solved.

 

and eldar telling us how much variation the core rules got is kinda meaningless as we already noted how much variation the core rules offer.. we specific noted that core rules gots more options than we saw in the original nwn and its expansions.

 

forget the reality, am talking 'bout perception... and the weight o' player expectations. peoples played nwn and the expansions at levels 1-30+, and they had a bunch of PrC, and they saw lots of loot and critters. nwn2 is gonna have fewer PrCs... and that right there is a big difference. you don't think so? simply looks at the nwn boards both before and after release. demand for each person's personal favorite PrC is probaly one of the most common recurring threads you will have seen.

 

am also not talking 'bout personal wants... 'cause Gromnir will be satisfied if gameplay is solid and if they gets domains better than the nwn weirdness. ufortunately we ain't the average crpg or d&d or FR fan. from what we can tell, the average nwn player wants to play as a drow death knight, dual wielding vorpal halberds... and he wants an opportunity kill elminster and make wild sweaty monkey love with lolth.

 

now, Gromnir am recognizing that no developer is gonna make such a game, and perhaps we is being a smidge hyperbolic, but we thinks that if you don't understand your audience you is gonna be more than a little disappointed at their reaction. afterwards the obsidian developers can pull a ps:t fanboi kinda thing and says that they were casting pearls before swine, but such excuses has rarely been particularly moving.

 

the fans of nwn is NOT the handful of modders you see on the nwn boards... and they is NOT the hardcore crpg fans you see 'round here or at codex or at bioware. nwn sold 2 million copies and the vast majority o' players never played a mod or played online with a pnp style party... evar. there is lots of folks out there who play these games simply to level up and gain loot... and many of the folks who buy nwn2 is gonna be doing so in the hopes that the characters they create in nwn2 will have more fantastic powers and more powerful loot than they did in nwn... and they will wanna play a drow who gets an opportunity to kill elminster and score with lolth.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 13, 2006 by Gromnir

[metadigital]

btw, while we applaud josh's desire to get the core right, ('cause we is almost as snobbish as he is 'bout such things,) one wonders how the fans will react.  part o' the formula for movie sequels is to always gets bigger explosions and crazier fight scenes, right?  similar line o' thinking exists in games.  sequels in crpgs offer More Powhaz and More 10075 than predecessors. compare bg2 available character development and loot options to bg1.  fallout 2 v. fallout?  kotor2 v. kotor?  . 

 

josh and Gromnir can point out that a genuine core implementation of d&d gives far more character options than nwn and all the expansions combined, but the average fan probably ain't gonna see it that way.  where is all the prestige classes and 1337 abilities? 

 

*shrug*

 

we thinks josh is doing the right way... but sometimes the right way ain't what people want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is beyond obvious that the beginning is where you start. Extra sails and rigging are great, but they are for when the ship floats, not before.

 

Don't forget that NwN 2 is equal parts a empowerment for modders, too.

 

Plenty of time for prestige classes and so forth when the expansions come out ... after all there has to be a selling point for them, too ... :D

[Cantousent]

Accepting, for the sake of argument, that you're right about the average NWN player (although I hope you're wrong on the monkey sex thing because... well... because) then is it too much to ask that they make the PrCs part of the campaign. This is something I've mentioned before. At any rate, Gromnir, it's not like either of us are stating anything we haven't already. We can't change PrCs, but we can always advocate making PrCs a more natural extension of the campaign, can we not?

[Darque]

there's one thing I can say about prestige classes... I could care less if they're in NWN2.. "

 

But then, the Warlock isn't Prc friendly so I wouldn't use one anyway.

[Judge Hades]

Will the game allow custom core classes, though. I think it could be interesting to put in the other Complete Book core classes like they did for Warlock.

[Gromnir]

"Don't forget that NwN 2 is equal parts a empowerment for modders, too."

 

no it isn't... and it would help if the developers figured that out sooner rather than later. according to some comments made by biowarians, less than 10% of nwn purchasers ever played a mod... and far fewer ever made a mod.

 

is not equal... not by a long shot.

 

"I think it is beyond obvious that the beginning is where you start"

 

what is even more obvious is that people always want more. tell us that it makes more sense to start with the basics completely ignores a large % of those 2 million nwn fans who unreasonably or not, wants... more.

 

we gots perspective... and so too should josh. we recall when iwd2 were being developed and josh offered up to the board for feedback some kit ideas. they were very solid and balanced... and they were absolutely hated.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 13, 2006 by Gromnir