Taking turn base action out of RPGs...

[Meshugger]

Well, Sion was only stretched out because of Combat.

 

 

I literally just kept hitting '1' to keep doing flurry.  Which was overkill because I was able to get him down to zero health in almost always a single flurry.

 

Malak required more button pushes and time simply because I had to do some moving to the tanks.  I was able to get him down to zero health in a single flurry though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's skill. How many hitpoints did you have?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Collecting ph@t lewt isn't role-playing. Role-playing is about making meaninful choices that effect your character, other characetrs, and the game world. JE allows this.

 

It may not be the best Ph@t Lewt Collector Simulation; but since that isn't the genre it's in; no worries there.

 

 

"Any of those sub 30 seconds and involve pressing only two buttons ?"

 

Kreia. And, it only takes one click of button. Or a few more to beat up on ahc of her light sabres. I used a whole bunch of buttons to fight Li.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No loot reduces the customisation options. Added to JE only having three stats made for some very samey characters.

 

Fine if you want all your characters be carbon copies of each other in the way they play.

 

Really, well why dont you share what you did to beat Kreia and then I'll tell you how to beat Li without any effort.

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

Collecting ph@t lewt isn't role-playing. Role-playing is about making meaninful choices that effect your character, other characetrs, and the game world. JE allows this.

 

It may not be the best Ph@t Lewt Collector Simulation; but since that isn't the genre it's in; no worries there.

 

 

"Any of those sub 30 seconds and involve pressing only two buttons ?"

 

Kreia. And, it only takes one click of button. Or a few more to beat up on ahc of her light sabres. I used a whole bunch of buttons to fight Li.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No loot reduces the customisation options. Added to JE only having three stats made for some very samey characters.

 

Fine if you want all your characters be carbon copies of each other in the way they play.

 

Really, well why dont you share what you did to beat Kreia and then I'll tell you how to beat Li without any effort.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Was Jade Empire's RPG engine similar to KotORs?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Malak required more button pushes and time simply because I had to do some moving to the tanks.  I was able to get him down to zero health in a single flurry though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But did you do it on the Leviathan :D Game dosnt acknowledge it of course

 

Malaks not difficult but he wasnt quick. I just stood around a corner and hit him then he ran off, just a case of repeating that .

 

Not a particularly good "duel".

 

Best ones are probably from the EP III games, once you get the hang of the controls.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Was Jade Empire's RPG engine similar to KotORs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Very in many ways it was a KOTOR TC with open palm replacing Light and closed fist replacing dark.

 

But with all the equipment removed and the number of stats reduced to three.

 

Plays in real time so you might like it. Although the combat system could hardly be described as challenging.

[Volourn]

"No loot reduces the customisation options. Added to JE only having three stats made for some very samey characters."

 

First part is true. But, just because item customization is lowered doesn't make it a non role-playing game either.

 

JE only has 3 main stats, it also has 3 substats plus 3 dialogue skills. Not to mention all the other powers one can get and modify. I played and finished JE three times. All three characters played differently espicially when you throw in the different experiences you get with the different way of dealing with quests, npcs, and the like. In fact, my third character was all about magic and summons with no wepaons except against enemies that wer eimmune to them so I had to 'struggle' with melee weapons with my worthless abilities in that regard.

 

 

 

"Fine if you want all your characters be carbon copies of each other in the way they play."

 

Nope. No carbon copies.

 

 

"Really, well why dont you share what you did to beat Kreia and then I'll tell you how to beat Li without any effort."

 

Eh. Not much to say. I was a Jedi with super high ac (50+), super saving throws and ph@t lewt. I pointed my attack button on her and her sabre guardians and pressed it. Game over. They could only hit me on really high rolls like 19 or 20, and her force powers wer emostly a joke as I never failed a save.

 

P.S. JE's engine ha svery little in common with KOTOR. Combat is more challenging, the role-playing is deeper, the quests are better with more ways to complete them, an dit has much better endings with 3 actual endings + varied endings for the different npcs (most of them, anyways).

Edited December 8, 2005 by Volourn

[Guest MacLeodCorp]

Was Jade Empire's RPG engine similar to KotORs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Very in many ways it was a KOTOR TC with open palm replacing Light and closed fist replacing dark.

 

But with all the equipment removed and the number of stats reduced to three.

 

Plays in real time so you might like it. Although the combat system could hardly be described as challenging.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bummer!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

"No loot reduces the customisation options. Added to JE only having three stats made for some very samey characters."

 

First part is true. But, just because item customization is lowered doesn't make it a non role-playing game either.

 

JE only has 3 main stats, it also has 3 substats plus 3 dialogue skills. Not to mention all the other powers one can get and modify. I played and finished JE three times. All three characters played differently espicially when you throw in the different experiences you get with the different way of dealing with quests, npcs, and the like. In fact, my third character was all about magic and summons with no wepaons except against enemies that wer eimmune to them so I had to 'struggle' with melee weapons with my worthless abilities in that regard.

 

 

 

"Fine if you want all your characters be carbon copies of each other in the way they play."

 

Nope. No carbon copies.

 

 

"Really, well why dont you share what you did to beat Kreia and then I'll tell you how to beat Li without any effort."

 

Eh. Not much to say. I was a Jedi with super high ac (50+), super saving throws and ph@t lewt. I pointed my attack button on her and her sabre guardians and pressed it.  Game over. They could only hit me  on really high rolls like 19 or 20, and her force powers wer emostly a joke as I never failed a save.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Never said it didnt. I said it reduced the range of character customisation.

 

Yes powers that do basically the same thing. Your talking to someone who's played the game here dont forget. You wont for example ever have the variation of a blaster weilding jedi in JE because you are required to have at least one power from each catagory.

 

Really ? Didnt all your characters have at least one weapon skill, one MA skill and one magic skill ? Sounds pretty carbon copy to me.

 

Golem and attack, dead in less than 30 seconds no uber equipment or even using gem stones. Kreia was only easy because of your stuff Li is just easy period.

[Volourn]

"Never said it didnt. I said it reduced the range of character customisation."

 

Of course, this discussion began with Hades saying JE wasn't a CRPG, and me disagreeing. One of my quick points was the fact that the fact that JE has a limited inventory shouldn't stop it from being cosnidered a CRPG. You countered, and said it does. Now, you saying it doesn't? Hmm..

 

 

 

"Kreia was only easy because of your stuff Li is just easy period."

 

No. Kreia is easy period. The stuff is because of ph@t lewt.

 

 

 

"Golem and attack, dead in less than 30 seconds no uber equipment or even using gem stones."

 

I cna beleive this. Golem is a little too overpwoered. Anyone doesn't use golem will have a lot more challenging time with Li, hwoever. With kreia, no matter what you do or what strategy you use, she is likely to be easy. There is only one way to make Li easy and its golem.

 

When JE2 come sout, I hope BIO has balanced that power better. Cool idea - afterall, who doens't enjoy walkinga round as a golem - but, definitely a tad overpowering. Heh.

 

 

"Really ? Didnt all your characters have at least one weapon skill, one MA skill and one magic skill ? Sounds pretty carbon copy to me."

 

Nope. Becuase the differnet skills even those of the same category work different. For exmaple, having skill in the sword or having skill in the staff or having skill in the ax are three different abilities.

 

And, my magic user character put absolutely no puts in any weapon skill. None. Zilch. Zero.

 

My characetrs should didn't feel carbon copy, and they played differently within reason cosnidering they are all Kung Fu Masters much like all KOTOR characetrs are all Jedis. Talk about carbon copies. LOL

Edited December 9, 2005 by Volourn

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

"Kreia was only easy because of your stuff Li is just easy period."

 

No. Kreia is easy period. The stuff is because of ph@t lewt.

 

I cna beleive this. Golem is a little too overpwoered. Anyone doesn't use golem will have a lot more challenging time with Li, hwoever. With kreia, no matter what you do or what strategy you use, she is likely to be easy. There is only one way to make Li easy and its golem.

 

When JE2 come sout, I hope BIO has balanced that power better. Cool idea - afterall, who doens't enjoy walkinga round as a golem - but, definitely a tad overpowering. Heh.

 

 

"Really ? Didnt all your characters have at least one weapon skill, one MA skill and one magic skill ? Sounds pretty carbon copy to me."

 

Nope. Becuase the differnet skills even those of the same category work different. For exmaple, having skill in the sword or having skill in the staff or having skill in the ax are three different abilities.

 

And, my magic user character put absolutely no puts in any weapon skill. None. Zilch. Zero.

 

My characetrs should didn't feel carbon copy, and they played differently within reason cosnidering they are all Kung Fu Masters much like all KOTOR characetrs are all Jedis. Talk about carbon copies. LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Take off your armour then says she's easy.

 

Yeah well I dont lie so I would be believable. Even without Golem once you know the pattern its no different just add 10 seconds or so.

 

No they all work the same there are no active increases in JE its all passive. Extra damage, less focus, more chi damage etc.

 

And that character got crushed by golems. :ph34r:

 

A Jedi with ranged weapons is nothing like one with a lightsaber. All JE characters play alike since they are all martial artists with limited possible skill sets thats just the way it is. The gun is about the only weapon that requires different skills because its slow as crap and you cant block while using it.

[Volourn]

"Even without Golem once you know the pattern its no different just add 10 seconds or so."

 

That's nice. You consider something easy afetr you've died a few times, figure out the best way to beat it then kill it quick. That doesn't make it easy at all.

 

As for taking off my armour to fight Kreia?

 

1. I'm not gonna play KOTOR2 again just to prove a point. I played the game once, enjoyed it, and (semi) moved on.

 

2. Taking off armour won't make all that much off a difference. On top of that, supposedly like Li is balanced for what characters are an dhave so should Kreia. preusmably she was balanced for character who had all that ph@t lewt. That's what we should be testing to see if the combat is easy. Might as well, take out all gems in JE or all items in KOTOR2 to test. then again, depsite being a Martial Artist in JE; KOTOR2's unarmed characters are much more powerful. Hehe.

 

3. All taking my armour off would do is me being hit on around an 8 or so instead and with 300+ hit points I'm not too worried...

 

 

"And that character got crushed by golems."

 

That character learned how to combat dance. Hehe.

 

 

"No they all work the same there are no active increases in JE its all passive."

 

Not quite true. You fight differently depending on the weapon. Staves have longe rrwach, swords are quicker, and axe is slower but can push enemies even frther back than normal. So, no, they don't work the same.

 

 

P.S. To get back on topic, to me, role-playing itslef has very little to do with how the combat plays out. Both BL and JE have some of the best role-playing in any game I've seen yet both have RT combat. Go figure.

Edited December 9, 2005 by Volourn

[DAWUSS]

I think RPGs should be built more around the "role" bit instead of the turn-based action. Just attack when you're ready

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That's nice. You consider something easy afetr you've died a few times, figure out the best way to beat it then kill it quick. That doesn't make it easy at all.

 

1. I'm not gonna play KOTOR2 again just to prove a point. I played the game once, enjoyed it, and (semi) moved on.

 

2.  Taking off armour won't make  all that much off a difference. On top of that, supposedly like Li is balanced for what characters are an dhave so should Kreia. preusmably she was balanced for character who had all that ph@t lewt.  That's what we should be testing to see if the combat is easy. Might as well, take out all gems in JE or all items in KOTOR2 to test. then again, depsite being a Martial Artist in JE; KOTOR2's unarmed characters are much more powerful. Hehe.

 

3. All taking my armour off would do is me being hit on around an 8 or so instead and with 300+ hit points I'm not too worried...

 

That character learned how to combat dance. Hehe.

 

Not quite true. You fight differently depending on the weapon. Staves have longe rrwach, swords are quicker, and axe is slower but can push enemies even frther back than normal. So, no, they don't work the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didnt die, I've seen the pattern boss fights a million times. Remember Seymour ? A fight that you can only figure out by dying would be a ridiculous thing in an RPG since the character wouldnt retain such knowledge you wouldnt be roleplaying.

 

Well if the intent is to be able to kill Li in less than 30 seconds mission accomplished. Bioware have no excuse since they removed anything that could be considered as unbalanced, like say equipment. Yes you could make KOTORII easy with equipment mods, but doing so and then complaining the game is easy , well thats just daft.

 

Fun taking 10 minutes to kill a golem was it?

 

Jump behind attack, block jump behind. Like I said the only one that was different was the gun. If your going to bring such trivialities into it then KOTOR was way different since each weapon had it's own set of statistics which could be further modified.

[Volourn]

"Fun taking 10 minutes to kill a golem was it?"

 

Absolutely. Fun, and challenging. Unlike Kreia, and most KOTOR series combat.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

"Fun taking 10 minutes to kill a golem was it?"

 

Absolutely. Fun, and challenging. Unlike Kreia, and most KOTOR series combat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you say so Jade Golems must have been hillarious.

 

Your really not getting though are you. You say that killing Golems was fun when you were clearly not using the most powerful or even sensible method available. Yet you critisice KOTOR for being easy when you took every advantage of the system.

 

Perhaps if you placed equal limitations on your characters KOTOR would be equally fun.

 

Since your definitions are now out in the open for all to see (and maybe laugh at) no need to continue this.

Edited December 9, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Volourn]

"Your really not getting though are you. You say that killing Golems was fun when you were clearly not using the most powerful or even sensible method available. Yet you critisice KOTOR for being easy when you took every advantage of the system."

 

Actually, I didn't use the 'most powerful' stuff in KOTOR2. I played whatever role I decicded to take. I was role-playing a Monk Caster in JE so I played it as such just like I would in KOTOR. And, I didn't do that in JE until my third time through. The problem is that neither KOTOR was worthy enough for me to play a 2nd or espicially a 3rd time through. My first time through JE, I played my character and 'took advantage' of the 'powerful stuff'. Heck, my KOTOR2 characetr never used missle weapons at all, and would only use sword type weapoins ebfore he got the lightsbare. Even with the light sbre gems I would only use the gems that fit the character; not simply the more powerful ones.

 

I don't consider it 'limiting'; I consider it 'role-playing'.

 

 

"Since your definitions are now out in the open for all to see (and maybe laugh at) no need to continue this."

 

If me role-playing is soemthing to laugh at, laugh away. LOL :D

Edited December 9, 2005 by Volourn

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

"Your really not getting though are you. You say that killing Golems was fun when you were clearly not using the most powerful or even sensible method available. Yet you critisice KOTOR for being easy when you took every advantage of the system."

 

Actually, I didn't use the 'most powerful' stuff in KOTOR2. I played whatever role I decicded to take. I was role-playing a Monk Caster in JE so I played it as such just like I would in KOTOR. And, I didn't do that in JE until my third time through. The problem is that neither KOTOR was worthy enough for me to play a 2nd or espicially a 3rd time through. My first time through JE, I played my character and 'took advantage' of the 'powerful stuff'. Heck, my KOTOR2 characetr never used missle weapons at all, and would only use sword type weapoins ebfore he got the lightsbare. Even with the light sbre gems I would only use the gems that fit the character; not simply the more powerful ones.

 

I don't consider it 'limiting'; I consider it 'role-playing'.

 

 

"Since your definitions are now out in the open for all to see (and maybe laugh at) no need to continue this."

 

If me role-playing is soemthing to laugh at, laugh away. LOL :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your criteria are no more rational than Hades. Roleplaying is fine and dandy, but using that as an excuse to call a game easy or difficult is not.

Edited December 9, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Haitoku]

"Your really not getting though are you. You say that killing Golems was fun when you were clearly not using the most powerful or even sensible method available. Yet you critisice KOTOR for being easy when you took every advantage of the system."

 

Actually, I didn't use the 'most powerful' stuff in KOTOR2. I played whatever role I decicded to take. I was role-playing a Monk Caster in JE so I played it as such just like I would in KOTOR. And, I didn't do that in JE until my third time through. The problem is that neither KOTOR was worthy enough for me to play a 2nd or espicially a 3rd time through. My first time through JE, I played my character and 'took advantage' of the 'powerful stuff'. Heck, my KOTOR2 characetr never used missle weapons at all, and would only use sword type weapoins ebfore he got the lightsbare. Even with the light sbre gems I would only use the gems that fit the character; not simply the more powerful ones.

 

I don't consider it 'limiting'; I consider it 'role-playing'.

 

 

"Since your definitions are now out in the open for all to see (and maybe laugh at) no need to continue this."

 

If me role-playing is soemthing to laugh at, laugh away. LOL :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your criteria are no more rational than Hades. Roleplaying is fine and dandy, but using that as an excuse to call a game easy or difficult is not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Correct. Not every game is made so you can play your Pirate Ninja or Healing Zombie Tank. If you find the game too difficult or easy because of the build your using... well, that's your problem.

[mkreku]

How in the hell would anyone find Jade Empire's combat challenging? It was fun for the first five minutes, but then we gave the controller away to a six year old every time a combat popped up because it became a chore without challenge (she loved it though).

[alanschu]

Really, well why dont you share what you did to beat Kreia and then I'll tell you how to beat Li without any effort.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

With Kreia I needed a different strategy. I found out that Force Crush essentially incapacitated Kreia, so I litterally just spammed "2" and was able to essentially "juggle" her to death. I did have to take a time out to kill those lightsabers she spawns though.

[Musopticon?]

Excuse me...

 

But how does combat/difficulty stop a game from being a true cRPG?

 

These things are at the bottom of the priority list...

 

EDIT: I should say, they should be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If the game is too easy, I get bored and any game I get bored at is not a CRPG to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As a parallel to this definition, any time I eat something, but do not enjoy it as much as I expected, it is no longer defined as food.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!

[Darque]

System Shock 2 let you select 3 classes.  Naval Marine, Army Soldier, and Psi-Ops Psionic.

 

 

What classes did Fallout let you be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fallout was "classless" you could be any "class" you built a skill set for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A lack of a class title doesn't make the game classless.

 

In fallout you were either a:

 

Thief

Warrior

Thief/Warrior

Punching Dummy

[Slowtrain]

A lack of a class title doesn't make the game classless.

 

In fallout you were either a:

 

Thief

Warrior

Thief/Warrior

Punching Dummy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Depends how the developers build problem resolution into the game. In FO problems were solved by:

 

1) Combat

2) Talking

 

3) Sneaking (but not as often)

 

SO technically, to finish the game you had to build a character that was in some way either a fighter, diplomat, or thief.

 

But, you could achieve any of those classes with a wide blend of primary and ancillary skills, so it was in fact a classless game within the parameters set forth by the devs.

[Darque]

Well, I consider the talking skills part of the "thief" line.. so that's why I consolidated it to two main classes, a hybrid and what's left. "

 

Speaking of System Shock 2... it's pretty "classless" all things considered.

 

The "classes" you choose are more or less the same as picking "tag skills", the game is open ended in the skill sets as well.

[Musopticon?]

You people don't separate melee and ranged?